Lords Sitting of 19 July 1842

MINUTES.
BILLS. public.—2a London Bridge Approaches Fund; Militia Ballots Suspension; Fisheries
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Treaty Act Continuance; Slave Trade Treaties Continuance; Tnrnpike Acts Continuance; Districts Courts and Prisons.
Committed.—Drainage (Ireland); New South Wales.
Reported.—Lunacy.
3a and passed: —Charitable Pawn Offices (Ireland); Tithes Commutation.
Private.—1a Mersey Conservancy.
2aSouthwark Improvement (No. 2).
Reported.—Duke of Buckingham's Estate.
3a and passed:—Reading Cemetery; Liverpool and Manchester Railway.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Lord Brougham, and the Marquess of Londonderry, from Medical Associations of Glasgow, South Shields, Cornwall, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Taunton, and South Devon, against the contemplated Medical Reform without further Inquiry.—From Dissenters of Oxford, to substitute Declarations for Oaths. —From the Ulster Canal Company, in favour of the Drainage (Ireland) Bill; and from Tullamore, to exempt the Grand Canal Company from its Provisions.—By the Duke of Cleveland, from certain Persons to secure the better Religious Instructions of Catholics in the Army and Navy.—By the Earl of Galloway, from Kensington, Chelsea, City of London, and Miners of Hopton and Thornhill, in favour of the Mines and Collieries Bill. —By the Marquess of Londonderry, Lord Hatherton, the Duke of Hamilton, and the Earl of Scarborough, from Colliers of Hoehlin Moor, and Helmly Moor Pit, and of the Raiding colliery, parish of Polmont; from Colliers of Over Darer; from Colliers in the parishes of Amroth Bigelly and St. Isella; from Females in That's Iron Works; from Sir John Hope, and Colliers of the Earl of Elgin's Collieries, Fifeshire, against parts of the Mines and Collieries Bill.—From Devizes, for the Prevention of Bribery.—From the Clergy of the Archdeacons of Wells, for Alteration of the law for Rating Tithes, and for Church Extension.

MINES AND COLLIERIES.
The Duke of Hamiltonhaving presented two petitions from the women employed in certain mines and collieries in Stirlingshire, against the Mines and Collieries Bill, went on to say, that independently of all the considerations to which the petitioners referred, he leaked upon this bill as most objectionable in principle and detail. It trenched on that right which every man and woman ought to enjoy, of disposing of their labour in what way they thought proper. He had no doubt whatever of the humane intentions of the promoters of the bill, but he thought they were wholly mistaken in the practical way in which they proposed to carry out those intentions. It might be very well to desire to relieve a woman from the drudgery of labour in a colliery—though, by the way, the extent of that drudgery was greatly overrated; but what kind of substitute did they propose to give for this labour? None whatever. The poor females so employed did not desire to be relieved from it. It was sweet to them, because by it they were enabled to maintain themselves, or, perhaps, a parent or a child, or, perhaps, all three. Deprive them of that labour and they were made

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miserable, as well as these dependent on them. On all these grounds he thought the bill most unjust in its principle, and most ruinous to those poor persons in its consequences.
Petition to lie upon the Table.

DRAINAGE (IRELAND).
Lord Wharncliffeon the Order of the Day for a committee on Drainage (Ireland) bill, moved that the House do resolve itself into committee.
The Earl of Glengallsaid, that he did not wish to throw any unnecessary obstacles in the way of this measure; but he must object to it as being too general in its nature. He thought, that whatever was done in Ireland in the matter of drainage, ought to have reference to the particular districts. He must also object, that the bill was brought forward at a period when so many noble Lords connected with Ireland were absent from Parliament. He hoped, that before they took any further steps they would institute some inquiry on the subject. No sane person, he thought, would be induced to put his property in the power of the commissioners in the manner which was proposed by the bill; but as he had every reason to believe, that it would prove as inoperative as Mr. M. O'Ferrall's bill on the same subject, had, he, perhaps, should be wasting their Lordships' time if he troubled them further on the subject. He should, therefore, merely move that the bill be referred to a select committee.
Lord Monteaglethought the Government had done themselves very great credit by bringing forward this bill, which was free from all party questions, and had for its object the developing the latest resources of Ireland. The referring the bill to a committee—which he did not suppose the noble Earl had moved with a view of defeating the measure—was wholly unnecessary, for if ever there was a subject which had been exhausted this was one; it had been constantly before the House since the year 1809. There could be no apprehension that the measure would be oppressive, for it required the assent of two-thirds of those who were interested before it could be put into operation; and if there was a disposition to act oppressively, there was a remedy in the bill itself sufficient to prevent oppression. He would suggest an amendment of the second clause, giving a conditional, not an
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absolute, power to the Government to appoint commissioners.
The Marquess of Clanricardesaid, that this was a bill which would not be tolerated for an instant in England. And as they heard so much of the inviolability of the union, would it not he most unwise to apply to property in Ireland a principle which they would never think of applying to property in England? He agreed with the noble Earl opposite, in thinking that the measure would be inoperative, but then that did not weaken the argument against the principle. It was true, that all the previous inquiries had demonstrated the necessity of drainage, but what had that to do with the confiscation of property, such as would take place if this bill passed into law? He would vote in favour of the motion of the noble Earl, in the hope that amendments would be made in the committee, which would render the bill less objectionable in many of its provisions.
The Earl of Wicklowthought, that if the object of the measure was desirable, namely, the drainage of the waste lands of Ireland, it was much better to have a general measure like that before the House, with the principle of which he concurred. Indeed, unless that principle were adopted, namely, of giving certain reasonable powers to the commissioners to carry the provisions out, the measure would be found impracticable. It would be useless to wait until those Irish proprietors whose estates required drainage applied for private bills, as unfortunately they did not display the same anxiety to improve their estates as the proprietors of this country. He should give his cordial support to the motion for going into committee.
The Marquess of Lansdownethought that every circumstance and fact that bad been stated in the course of this debate went to show the expediency of adopting this measure.
The Marquese of Londonderrywas of opinion that the grand juries of Ireland ought to be made better acquainted than they were with the scope and intent of this measure. The Government appeared to him to be over-legislating, in attempting, so unnecessarily, to press this and other measures through the House at so late a period of the Session.
The Earl of Charlevillewas anxious that this bill should be referred to a select committee, in order that many of its pro-

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visions might undergo alteration and emendation. Even if the result of such reference should be to delay the measure for a Session, he did not think the inconvenience could be nearly so great as if they passed it in an incomplete form.
Lord Cloncurrysupported the bill, on the ground that there were 3,000,000 of acres of wet and waste land in Ireland, which would be brought into cultivation under its operation.
Earl of Clancarty:My Lords, although I cannot agree with the noble Marquis (Lord Clanricarde) opposite, and other noble Lords who are utterly opposed to the bill, neither can I join in that unqualified approbation which my noble Friend near me (the Earl of Wicklow) has bestowed upon it. I concur in much that was said by the noble Lord opposite (Lord Mounteagle) both as to the necessity of some such measure, and the praiseworthy spirit in which her Majesty's Government have brought it forward; I give them the credit that is due for having given effect to the intentions of their predecessors in office by the adoption of a measure not their own, but of which they saw the utility. But while I give them credit for the motives with which they have brought this measure forward, I must express my regret that considering the very great powers with which it proposes to invest commissioners in interfering with private property, considering the very startling importance of several of the enactments' in the bill, which nothing short of a paramount necessity should justify, the noble I President of the Council in introducing' the bill this evening to your Lordships, has barely glanced at its provisions and stated no case, brought forward no evidence whatever to justify them. The power given by the bill to the proprietors of two-thirds of any land, to compel the proprietors of the remaining third to place the management of the whole in the hands of Government commissioners, and the extraordinary powers conferred upon these commissioners of borrowing and laying out money, and charging with the repayment both of principal and interest not alone the lands which they undertake to improve, but any other lands lying within a mile of such improvement—these powers may be necessary, but the noble Lord stated no case showing them to be so; and, to his argument in favour of the bill that it had been passed through the House
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of Commons without a division, I cannot subscribe as any reason why your Lordships should not examine minutely into its provisions. So far from the apparent unanimity with which the bill has passed through the Commons being an evidence that it has been carefully considered, it appears to me to be an evidence of its having been very little looked into; for when in this House so much difference of opinion prevails respecting it, as the speeches that have been delivered this evening exhibit, it is scarcely reasonable to suppose that perfect unanimity should be found upon it in an assembly so much more numerous. I trust, therefore, that your Lordships will enter upon the consideration of the details of the bill on its merits, without relying upon the consideration given to it in the other House of Parliament. Of the necessity of a Drainage bill, general in its operation, I am fully satisfied; the want of Drainage in Ireland is that which of all things strikes the visitor to that country most forcibly. Undoubtedly much is being done, but much is also, of necessity, left undone for the want of a body, which the commissioners created by this bill will supply, to act with authority as umpires in applotting the expences of improvements among the proprietors who are benefitted, and to see the proper outlay of the money and the management of the works to be done. I think that for all this the bill before your Lordships provides; but I think it also goes further than is necessary in interfering with the rights of property. Care, my Lords, should be taken, that we do not precipitate matters, even though the object in view be the improvement of the country. Commissioners armed with great powers are, no doubt, to a great extent necessary; but let us not lose sight of the fact, that Ireland is already overrun with commissioners; that the powers exercised by these bodies are always a deduction from the stewardship of others, and their appointment a new and permanent charge upon the country. Within the last ten years we have seen Ecclesiastical commissioners appointed to supersede the Archbishops and Bishops in the administration of the funds for the building and repairing of churches; we have seen commissioners of Education usurping the province of the parochial clergy in the superintendence and direction of the National Education; Poor-law commissioners have been

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appointed to regulate the principle upon which the wealthier classes are henceforth to contribute to the relief of the destitute; and, until within the present year, a commission of stipendiary magistrates was rapidly growing up, that would eventually have altogether superseded the country gentlemen in their proper functions as the guardians of the peace and good order of the country, and of the rights of the poor. Further, a commission of public works has, in a great degree, superseded the grand juries in the superintendence of the thoroughfares, bridges, and public buildings, and in their control over the taxation of the several counties; and it is now proposed to invest commissioners with very extraordinary powers over private property. A modification of these powers it may he very necessary to give into their hands; but we must beware that we do not go too far in surrendering up the stewardship of those talents for which we have to be answerable, and to which we should apply ourselves without leaving too much upon others; we must take care that we do not in our eagerness for the improvement of the country, place every thing at the discretion of officers appointed by the Crown, as the Egyptians of old, though for a more pressing occasion, yielded up their cattle and their land, and eventually their persons, as the bondsmen of Pharaoh. As objections to the details of the bill may he better discussed in committee, I shall not, especially at this late hour, enter into the consideration of them at present. I will only say, that with respect to the 21st and 28th sections of the bill, I hope the noble Lord who has charge of it, will allow a very considerable alteration to be made in the former, and that the latter may be altogether omitted, as they involve a violation of the rights of private property which is quite unjustified by any necessity, and inconsistent alike with the interests and duty of the proprietory.
Lord Wharncliffedefended the bill, the objections to which he should prefer dealing with in committee. It was a bill which was generally called for, which had been exceedingly well considered, and which he was confident would have a beneficial influence on the country. He, therefore, objected to its being referred to a select committee.
The question that the bill be referred to a select committee
House in committee.
On the second clause, empowering the Board of Works to appoint two additional paid commissioners, if necessary, being put.
The Marquess of Clanricardemoved that the clause be expunged.
The Earl of Wicklowsupported the clause.
Their Lordships divided on the question, that the clause stand part of the bill:—Contents 30; Not-Contents 6 Majority 24.
Remaining clauses agreed to, with amendment.
House resumed. Report to be received on Monday.
House adjourned.