Lords Sitting of 18 July 1842

Preamble
MINUTES.) BILLS.Public.—2a Bankruptcy Law Amendment; County Courts (England).
Committed.—Lunacy.
3o and passed:—Dean Forest Ecclesiastical Districts; Railways.
Private.—Reported.—Liverpool and Manchester Railway; Reading Cemetery.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Lord Tottenham, from Jeffery Harvey and others Imprisoned for Debt, for the Abolition of Imprisonment for Debt.—From Holme Cultural, against the Tithes Commutation Bill.—By Lord Beaumont, from the Cassingwold Union, for Alteration of the Poor-law Amendment Act.—From the Sheriff of Lancasshire, to exempt that County from the Operation of the County Courts Bill.—By Lord Hatherton, from Colliers of Pilkington and other places; by the Marquess of Londonderry, Lord Brougham, and Lord Redesdale, from the Outwood Colliery, the Female Workers of the Carron Company Colliery and others, against parts of the Mines and Collieries Bill.—By the Marquess of Lansdowne, from Lessees of Coal Mines in Butterworth, Castleton, and other places, for Compensation.—From the North Wales Provincial, Medical, and Surgical Association; and by Lord Campbell, from the Provincial, Medical, and Surgical Association, against the proposed Medical Reform without further Inquiry.—By the Earl of Glengall, from the Corporation of London, for means to remedy the Smoke nuisance.—By Lord Brougham, from Alford, for the Abolition of Slavery in India.—From Louth Literary and Scientific Institution, to Exempt such Institutions from Taxes,—From the British and Foreign Anti-Slavery Society, for the Suppression of the Slave Trade.—By Lord Wharncliffe, from Leeds, for Inquiry into the Public Distress, and Relief.—From Silk Weavers of Macclesfield, for Protection.

PUBLIC DISTRESS.
Lord Wharncliffesaid he had to present a petition from the mayor, aldermen, and burgesses of Leeds The petitioners begged to call the attention of their Lordships to the distress under which so many of their fellow-townsmen were now suffering, and had been for the last four years. That distress, if any doubt existed with respect to it, could be placed beyond all dispute by the returns relating to the relief of the poor, the rates for which had been doubled since 1838. These were for the in-door poor, but the increase in the number of outdoor paupers, in the same time, and the increased expense attending on them, were enormous. The petitioners prayed, that their Lordships would adopt some measures, for the purpose of inquiring into the cause of the distress, with the view of devising some remedy.
The Earl of Radnorwould beg to ask the noble Earl who presented this petition whether, with such a striking illustration

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of the distress of the country before him, he could, as a Member of the Government, advise her Majesty to allow Parliament to separate without endeavouring to find some means of relief for the poor by means of advances (as we understood the noble Earl) for the purpose of giving them employment? It was true we had now very fine weather, and employment was to be had by many, but the fine weather could not last for more than a couple of months more, and then people would be as bad or worse off than ever.
Lord Wharnclifecould not advise the adoption of the suggestion made by the noble Earl. He had hopes, that trade would get better, and more general employment would, of course, follow. As to inquiry into the causes of the distress, he did not see what good that would now do, for (as we understood the noble Lord) the repeal of the Corn-law would only make matters worse.
The Earl of Radnorshould like to hear the grounds on which the noble Lord rested his hopes of trade getting better, and on which hopes the Government seemed resolved to do nothing, and not to recommend to Parliament to do anything. They used to hear talk long ago of the "omnipotence" of Parliament, and they had it on no less an authority, he believed., than that of Blackstone, that Parliament could do anything except turning a man into a woman, or a woman into a man; but it appeared, now, that Parliament could not, or would not, do anything, and in the meantime, the people were suffering—suffering severely.
Petition laid on the Table.

LAW REFORMS.
The Lord Chancellorrose to call the attention of their Lordships to the three bills which he had laid on the Table some time ago, relating to certain alterations in the laws of bankruptcy, to cases of lunacy, and to county courts. With the concurrence of his noble and learned Friends, who intended to take a part in the discussion, it was agreed that the whole of these should be considered as one for the purpose of such discussion. With respect to the first of these measures, that relating to bankruptcy, it would be in the recollection of many of their Lordships, that his noble and learned Friend who had preceded him on the Woolsack, had issued a commission to inquire into the state of the bank-
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rupt laws. The commission so appointed proposed various alterations in the law; of these, he (Lord Lyndhurst) had adopted many, and so hail his noble Friend (Lord Cottenham) near him, in the bill which he had brought in, On these, there could be no difference between them, and it would he better to leave them for consideration, the committee. The part of the bid to which he would particularly direct the attention of their Lordships related to the administration of the bankruptcy laws. When his noble and learned Friend (Lord Brougham) held the great seal he introduced a measure which proposed very extensive alterations and reforms in the laws relating to bankruptcy. The manner in which, up to that time, those laws had been administered, the lists of commissioners, and the way in which they frequently acted as counsel in one cause, and judges in another, were at that time matters of loud and general complaint. Into the justice or injustice of those complaints, he would not then top to inquire. It would suffice to notice, that his noble and learned Friend's bill abolished the whole of those commissioners, and appointed in their place six gentlemen of the bar of considerable legal experience and acquirements. In addition to these, there was an appointment of official assignees, whose duty it was to look after the assets belonged to the bankrupt, and should be collected for his creditors. The great advantages which had resulted to the trading world front this, might be judged of from one or two facts. Since the appointment of those official assignees, there had been collected upwards of 2,000,000 l. of outstanding debts, which, but for their zeal and assiduity, would never have found their way to the pocket of the creditors—and on old commissions, some of which went as far back as 1810, there had been collected assets which amounted to between 300,000 l. and 400,000l. for the benefit of the creditors. It had been complained of that two of those official assignees had not acted as they ought to have done in the discharge of their duties. Upon that he would only say that the matter was under investigation by the proper authorities; but let him observe, that in such extensive changes as had been made by the bill of his noble and learned Friend, it should not be a matter of surprise to find one or two not

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acting as they ought. Let him add, how-ever, in justice to his noble and learned Friend who had made those appointments, that if any of them were deficient it had not arisen from the want of due diligence on his part in selecting properly qualified persons. He had availed himself of the best aid within his reach. He had sent the applications of the several candidates for examination to the Chairman of the East India Company, the Governor and Deputy-governor of the Bank of England, and to other gentlemen equally well versed in commercial matters, and fully competent to judge of the fitness of the candidates from their knowledge of them, end lie believed that the appointments gave general satisfaction. Indeed, the working of the whole system, under his noble and learned Friend's bill, had been spoken of in terms of deserved praise by the trading community of London. That system, excellent as it was, only extended to the metropolis, which included a district of forty miles round it, but from the experience which was had of its working, the conclusion had been come to that it would he desirable to extend it. This could be done by extending the commissions 100 miles beyond London. To do this it was not proposed to draw a radius, but to take in certain counties which lay about that distance. This would increase the business by one-fifth, but still it could he performed without inconvenience to the commissioners. Then the question arose as to what was to be done with respect to the country commissioners. That was a question which was attended with some difficulty. In some counties there was one commissioner, in other counties there were two, and in others there were none. The consequence was, that it frequently occurred that professional men were called upon to execute a business with which they had little or no acquaintance. In some places it not unfrequently happened that the commissioner was personally connected or had pecuniary transactions with the parties who came before him. In one instance it occurred that there were upon the commission one petitioning creditor, two other creditors, and two debtors, Another inconvenience was, that the corn- commissioners living at such a distance from each other, great delay took place, and considerable expense was incurred, in bringing them together. The intention, then, was to establish five central points
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at five great towns beyond the London district, vested with the same power which was at present reposed in the London commissioners. They would perform the same quantity of duty now performed by the London commissioners, having a similar range and a similar jurisdiction. It would be desirable, then, to add to the remuneration of the commissioners, because where there were increased duties, it would be but just that the remuneration should also be enlarged. The plan which he was now suggesting was his own, but whilst he was revolving it a memorial was forwarded to the Government signed by 650 of the most eminent traders and merchants of London, suggesting a similar plan. With respect to the abolition of imprisonment in execution, which was suggested by his noble and learned Friend, it was a question of great importance, but it did not necessarily or properly form an essential part of the measure which he was then propounding to their Lordships. His wish was, not to encumber his bill with any doubtful proposition, but to let each measure stand or fall upon its own merits. The next measure to which he would advert was that relating to the law establishing lunacy. The question had already been considered, and the outline of the bill had been stated. This bill he proposed to carry out by commissioners also, as in the case of the Bankruptcy Bill, the metropolitan district to extend over a space of twenty miles beyond London. At present those who had the administration of the law had not that amount of experience which the nice and delicate investigations upon which they had to enter would necessarily require. The alteration which he proposed was, that there should be two commissioners for carrying the law into execution, not only in the metropolitan district, but throughout the country. For this purpose he considered that the two would be quite sufficient. There was, another evil which the bill was intended to do away with, namely, the payments of the commissioners by fees—a practice which was calculated to lead to a prolongation of the inquiry. Another evil was the expence incurred in inquisitions, and in the interval between the inquisition and the order for maintenance, which was occasioned by no fault in the Master's-office. The noble and learne4 Lord read several instances of large expenses thus incurred, and the dispropor-

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tion which the expenses bore to the income of the lunatic: in one case the expence was 520 l., and the income only 20 l. a year. Surely, there ought to be some mode of remedying, he would not say, abuses, but expenses of this kind, arising out of an old system which admitted of alteration. The expenses were principally incurred in the Master's office, and the evil might be obviated by empowering the commissioners to take evidence viva voce. He had several bills of costs in lunacy; in one, " In re 'Weaver," the bill amounted to 2,104 l., and what did their Lordships think was the income of the lunatic? The present income was 19 l. 10 s. a year. All the inquiries for which these expenses were incurred, were of a most simple kind, and could be conducted in a simple manner before commissioners. In another case, " In re Wood," the committee died, and it was necessary to appoint a new committee and what was the expence? No less than 1341,, in addition to the other costs. Then it was necessary for the committee to pass his accounts the first year, and the costs of passing the accounts was 25 l. What he proposed was, that two commissioners should be appointed, not only to preside at the inquisition, but that many of these inquiries should be conducted under their superintendence by viva voce evidence. He had conversed with many persons in the profession and in all branches of it, and every one had been fat curable to this part of the bill. Another part of the bill was this:—certain visitors were at present appointed to go round to the lunatics, and report to the Lord Chancellor as to their condition. He proposed that the commissioners should be added to the number of these visitors, so as to give them a continued superintendence over every lunatic, in order that his comfort as well as his property might be secured. In many cases, after the appointment of the committee, nothing further was done, and in one instance a commission had been taken out, and two years afterwards the party found lunatic was met with in a public-house, no committee having been appointed and nothing having been done under the commission. He proposed that the commissioners should be taken from the highest Members of the Bar, and that they should have a constant superintendence over lunatics. By one of the provisions of the bill of his
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noble and learned Friend, the office of clerk of the custody of lunatics, was to he abolished after the death or resignation of the present holder. In this bill, power was given to the Lord Chancellor to grant compensation and abolish the office forthwith, as soon as means were found for that purpose. Considering that there were upwards of 500 lunatics under the charge of the Lord Chancellor, he thought that their Lordships would not think he had occupied too much of their time in pressing the subject upon their attention. The third measure was the measure of the county courts, and he approached the subject with some hesitation. He had ' always been adverse to the establishment of local courts, but he had found that local courts were constantly applied for, and if local courts were to be it was better that they should be framed upon one general system, than that they should be various and anomalous shapes as at present. He had always considered the great evil off local courts to consist in local judges, and he thought if lucid judges could be got rid of (as he thought they might be to a great extent), it would be wise to propose a measure for the establishment of local courts; but local courts should not be established without a system of appeal. The object should be to render the law administered there uniform and certain; but if courts were scattered over the country without a power of appeal from them, or with a limited power of appeal, there would be no certainty in the law administered there, and no man would feel a confidence in them. If there were local judges they would be liable to local influence, and nothing could be more pernicious than such a system. The judges of assize, in ancient years, were not allowed to go on circuit into the counties where they were born or in which they dwelt, and this was on account of the bias they might receive from local influence and connexions. It had been said, by a noble Lord, that it was a reproach to this country not to have an institution which existed in other countries. But if their Lordships looked to other countries, and saw what was the operation of local courts there, they would think it a matter of congratulation rather than of reproach and regret that we were free from this evil. Upon a former occasion he had referred to the I terms toe which M. Boyar Collard had described the local courts of France. That

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learned person had characterized them as " more inefficient and less respected " than the tribunals established before the Restoration. He (the Lord Chancellor) would alter as little as possible. County courts were a part of our ancient system of judicature. They were presided over by the county clerk, whose jurisdiction extended to 40 s. If he extended their jurisdiction to 5l., he thought that substantially there would be no innovation. They might be held in any part of the county. If he appointed a particular place, and gave them a jurisdiction to the extent of AV., and appointed persons of respectability and learning to preside over them, as he proposed to do by this bill, he thought he did not innovate upon this ancient institution. He proposed further, that the persons appointed to be judges of these courts should not reside in the provinces where they administered the law, but that they should make circuits, like the judges of the land, into the provinces with which they were not acquainted, and where they had no local connexions or prejudices. He proposed that there should be six or eight circuits a year, to be made by barristers of a certain standing, to be appointed by the Crown, who should return to the metropolis after the circuits, where they could mix with their colleagues in the profession, and thus there would be a security for the uniformity of the law they administered. His noble and learned Friend (Lord Tottenham), whom he was always proud to follow, had in his bill suggested this course. Her Majesty in Council would appoint the times and the places for holding these courts, so that the principle of the measure only was laid down in this bill. If six circuits were made, each judge would have to dispose of 300 cases, and if eight were appointed, each judge would have between 200 and 300, which might be got through with great facility. It was not necessary that he should enter into any of the details of the bill— all the local courts hills which had been passed for severed years contained the same clauses principle only they differed from this bill. He should not enter into a contest with his noble and learned Friend as to the merits of their respective plans. His noble and learned Friend had thought it better to establish a number of local judges (25 or 30) in different parts of the kingdom, which he had always objected to, and he thought his own a better course
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His noble and learned Friend's bill would render it necessary to appoint fifty-two barristers of ten years' standing to transact the duties which would devolve on them by his bill. It was a considerable advantage, that by his system not half the number of judges his noble and learned Friend would have to appoint would be necessary to perform the duties. For himself, he had no stomach to digest the appointment of fifty or sixty barristers, of ten years' standing, with salaries of 1,500 l. A year. He had thought it better thus to unite the three measures he had brought before their Lordships in one discussion, in order that they might dispose of them at once. He moved that the Bankruptcy Bill be read a second time.
Lord Tottenhamsaid, that it would be a satisfaction for their Lordships to know that, with regard to the principles on which these measures were founded, there was little or no difference between his noble and learned Friend and himself. As far as bankruptcy was concerned, his noble and learned Friend had borrowed from his bill. In fact, his noble and learned Friend in one bill had copied sixty clauses from his Bill, and in the other he had copied seventy clauses. Therefore, as far as those clauses were concerned, there could be no difference between his noble and !earned Friend and himself. The question of insolvency his noble and learned Friend bad entirely omitted from his measure. During the first four years of the reign of the Queen, no less than thirty-eight acts had been passed for the purpose of establishing local courts. This showed the interest which the people took on this subject. What he differed from his noble and learned Friend about was, first, as to the mode in which these various jurisdictions were to be established; and secondly, the proposal which his own bill contained of uniting the laws effecting bankruptcy to the laws effecting insolvency. As his noble and learned Friend had entirely omitted that part of the case, it would he his (Lord Cottenham's) duty to call the attention of the House to it. It appeared to him strange that the re' medial process against a man in trade should be entirely different from the process against a man who was not in trade. It was strange that the mere circumstance of a man's not being in some business should cause him to be excluded from the operation of the bankruptcy laws,

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It was by appealing to the result of the experiments made by the bill which had been passed that he (Lord Tottenham) now asked them to extend the provisions of that bill, and to abolish imprisonment for debt in execution. If they adopted that principle, the difference between the bills proposed by his noble and learned Friend and by him would be greatly diminished. The report which had been laid on their Lordships' Table (and he need only refer to the names appended to that report to ensure it their respect and attention), stated, that out of 3,905 persons imprisoned for debt, only 361 were remanded—that was to say, that. out. of nearly 4,000 persons who had suffered imprisonment, only eight and six-tenths in every hundred had cases made out against them of having improperly dealt with their property, or otherwise so misconducted themselves as not to be entitled to their discharge. Out of these 361 dividends were paid in only 199 cases, and some of these dividends amounted to only 3d. in the pound; and yet with this statement before them it was now proposed that a party, however ready to settle to the best of his power, should not be entitled to the benefit of the Insolvent Debtors' Act until he had first undergone imprisonment. Under the law as it at present stood, however honourably disposed the insolvent might be—however disposed to pay what he could, if a single creditor declared himself unsatisfied, this unfortunate person had no alternative but to go to gaol. By the provisions which he suggested this state of things would be put an end to. What was the expense in-cuffed by the fact of which he had complained. It appeared that the expense of discharging these persons, 361 only out of nearly 9,000 being remanded, and dividends even of the smallest amount having been paid in only 199 cases, was 86,970 l The bills which he (Lord Tottenham) had introduced were three in number, relating to bankruptcy and insolvency, to county courts, and to lunacy. He must direct the attention of their Lordships to another point—the propriety of doing away with the future liability of insolvents. The commissioners had described some of the evil effects which arose from a system which went practically to prevent persons being once insolvent from afterwards realising property. [The noble and learned Lord read an extract from the report in support of his position.] Nothing could
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be worse than that a person once placed in these unfortunate circumstances should thereafter be incapacitated from possessing property, for men would not exert themselves to acquire property if the moment they had succeeded some other persons were to take it from them. Nothing, he would save, could be more cruel to individuals, or more impolitic to the State, than such a system. Let them only recollect that 4,000 annually, or 40,000 in ten years, were thus preclude from obtaining property. Such were the two principal points adverted to in the reports, and all the reason and argument were, in his option, on one side. He hoped their Lordships a mild read the report, and that having done so, they would court to the conclusions that it was right and politic to carry these prepositions into effect. If this was done there 'would ten he hardly any differences between the law of bankruptcy and that of insolvency, and he did not see the propriety of having, two systems—two sets of machinery, where there was no difference in fact. In reality, two thirds of the insolvents were already subject to the bankrupt laws and if there were means to pay, the expenses would lie treated under it. But under the present system there was one treatment for the larger trader, and another for the smaller one. With respect to the machinery of the bankrupt and lunacy laws, he (Lord Tottenham) did not defend the defects in those laws, having introduced bills to remedy them. But his noble and learned Friend had not adverted to one point—the great. mass of business, such as commissions from the Court of Chancery, with bankruptcy, insolvency, and other cases, and cases relating to County Courts, which was transacted in the county; and he could not understand why, under the provisions of the bill, creditors should have frequently to go 100 miles to the
commissioner. (The Lord Chancellor: The noble and learned Lord's own bill makes Dublin the only head quarters in Ireland, though that city is distant from Cork 125 miles.] He was not speaking of the way in which they managed [natters in Ireland—he was alluding to England. He did not see bow the business in the country could be satisfactorily transacted with the whole of England and Wales divided into only five districts, each district being placed under two commissioners. The insolvent commissioners, consistently with their duties in London,

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could only go three times a year for the purpose of discharging debtors—and here was, ones great grievance, that parties end-titled to their discharge should have to wait for months for the arrival of the commissioner. He believed that the scheme of his noble and learned Friend, so far as the Lunacy Bill was concerned, would be altogether impracticable. With respect to the measure for the establishment of county courts, he thought that there was one defect in the Bill of his noble and learned Friend. He thought that these ought to, be a permanent resident judge in every, principal town, in addition to those judges who, under the Bill, would have to go circuit. He felt that there were many practical objections to the details of the measures, which would be better discussed in committee.
Lord Broughamexpressed his concurrence in much of what had fallen from the noble and learned Lord who had last addressed the House, as well as in what had fallen from his noble and learned Friend on the Woolsack. With regard to the Bankruptcy Bill, as might easily be supposed, he thought its extension from the metropolis to the country would be highly beneficial, and as had been stated by his noble Friend, this was always his (Lord Brougham's) intention as soon as time should have tried and proved the merits of the system in the Landon, district. The measure, when he introduced it, was admitted by him to fall short of what the country districts required. It appeared to him that the Lunacy Bill was improvement a great improvement upon the existing system, and would much tend to diminish the expense and delay to which parties were at present subjected. There was a very material difference between the two County court bills brought in by his noble Friends, and that which he had introduced to their Lordships, and which was rejected by a majority of only one. His bill gave a much more extensive jurisdiction to the local courts in matters of tort. It enabled them to try all actions of trespass, such was assault, seduction, malicious arrest, and, in fact, all actions whatever upon tort, to the extent of 50 l. damages. It besides gave them juries-fiction in action of contract, whether by specialty or simple contract, to the extent fined of 20 l. The bill of his noble Friend hon. the power of the courts to actions upon simple contract, excluding specialty, and, in actions of tort, the damages were to be limited to 2l 1. He still entertained the opinion that a local judge constantly on the
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spot, would be much more satisfactory to all the parties who were now compelled to go into court as plaintiffs sad defendants than the judges of assize, and the expensive machinery attending such a mode of trial, He would, at the same time, give the parties the power of appeal upon matters of law. They should agree upon a case, in order to bring not the facts, but the law, before a proper tribunal, which should decide upon it. Such a course was absolutely necessary, to keep the law uniform, and it was provided by his bill of 1833. He saw, also, no possible objection to give the voluntary jurisdiction to the local courts, even in the present bill of his noble and learned Friend. The County courts should have jurisdiction in all causes whatever by consent of both parties, as had been given to the Local courts in his (Lord Brougham's) bill; and he still continued to entertain his partiality to the court of reconcilement. Such a court would tend greatly to prevent parties from engaging in the litigation in which they were now too frequently involved, and so far from being as had been represented, a visionary scheme, it had for half a century been tried in other countries, Denmark especially, and with the most complete success. But the greatest point of difference between his bills and those of his noble Friend was, in respect of a resident judge and an ambulatory judge; and the more he had reflected on the subject, the less objection could he see to the appointment of a locally resident judge: One of the objections raised to such an appointment was, the different description of law that must arise in each district; but that would be avoided by the formation of an appellate jurisdiction that should govern all these different judicatures, according to one fixed rule of law. Another objection was, the partiality that would be likely to exist in the breasts of the judges, from local connections, local attachments, and intercourse with the individuals over whom they were to act as judges. But. if persons of respectability and eminence in the profession were appointed, if they acted judicially with the watchful eye of the bar to which they belonged ever over them, and, above all, if they had the equally vigilant, although not equally discriminating, eye of the public ever regarding them, it would be impossible that anything of such a flagrant kind could' happen, as that of showing partiality towards persons with whom they might be living in habits of intimacy. It was not found to be the case in countries where; the experiment was not hazardous, and of

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recent date, but where such a law had always existed. The whole of Scotland, time out of mind, had been under the jurisdiction of local judges. The sheriff of each county was the judge ordinary, as he was called, of the bounds. He could act in all cases, a very few excepted, in which the Court of Session alone had jurisdiction; but, in nine cases out of ten of importance and value, the sheriff was the ordinary judge, with an appeal to the Court of Session. The sheriffs had the power of appointing deputies, who were generally attorneys practising in the country, to preside in their courts; and he had never heard of any charge of corruption or partiality being brought against even the sheriff substitutes, much less against the sheriffs who were barristers, as he proposed, of course, the local judges should be. It was most gratifying to him to reflect, that the bill which he introduced, in 1833, had the unanimous approbation of the Commissioners of Common Law Inquiry, to whom it was submitted previously to its being brought] forward, with two exceptions; one relating to the amount over which the courts were to have jurisdiction, and the other to the subject of legacies. The commission was composed of very eminent and learned men, and included in its body the names of Mr. Starkie, the King's coun. sell, and well known also for his able periodical writings, Commissioner Evans, Mr. Serjeant Stephen, Mr. Justice Brightman, and the present Attorney-general, Sir F. Pollock, who all approved of his bill, except in the two cases he had related, and in which he had changed it to meet their objections. He still, therefore, entertained a hope that he should live to see a larger proportion of that measure made the law of the land than was introduced in the measure now brought forward by his noble Friend, which he admitted was a great improvement upon the present law, and he earnestly hoped it might pass, as a very large step towards a perfect system. He also trusted that imprisonment for debt would be abolished altogether, and should soon lay before their Lordships a measure for effecting this desirable object.
Lord Wynfordthought that his noble and learned Friend on the Woolsack was entitled to the thanks of that House and of country, for all the important and valuable changes which his bills would effect. He bagged to say that, for his own part, he should always object to one local judge, and one judge going always the same circuit With reference to the appeal, he thought
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the best which could be devised would be to follow out the practice of the tax acts, by drawing up special cases in small causes, and then there would be a uniformity of proceeding. With such a provision, he could see no objection to allow parties to litigate causes, in the local courts, to any amount.
Lord Campbellcould not deny that there was something good in these measures; seeing that one bill contained sixty clauses, and another seventy clauses, which had been taken from the bill of his noble and learned Friend behind him; but taking the whole as a system he was sorry he could not express his approval of it. He objected to the present bill, that it stood in the way of improvement, and it would be difficult to tell who would be subject to the Bankrupt-law, and who were not. But why should not the insolvent who was not a trader, especially on making a distribution of his property fairly and honestly,—why should he not be entitled to be discharged? But see the difference which was here made between one set of insolvents and another set. The bankrupt might have incurred debts to the amount of a million or millions of money, yet he got his certificate and suffered no imprisonment, and was then allowed to begin the world as a new man. But the small insolvent, who might have incurred debts not by any means to so large amount,—he had no commission of bankruptcy issued against him. He, poor man ! must go to prison—he was not allowed to make a surrender of his effects,—he must undergo the degradation of incarceration, and it was not till he bad been subjected to this degradation that he could live to be discharged, and then he did not commence the world as a new man, for all his after acquired property was made liable. The commissioners who had drawn up that report on this subject recommended that this inconsistency and distinction should be abolished. That distinction, however, was perpetuated tinder this bill. The noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack might say that this point could be reserved for future consideration; but why, lie would ask, had it not been considered in this Session? This was the third Session the bill had been laid on the Table of that House, recommended, as it had been, by the commissioners, who were composed of legal and mercantile men. If this matter were not considered and decided this Session, he despaired of ever seeing such a favourable opportunity return. This bill kept up the Court of Review, the Bankruptcy Court,

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and the Insolvent Debtor's Court, and there was a double system going on, not only in London but throughout the country. His noble and learned Friend would have no less than five functionaries employed to carry out his scheme; there were the judges to preside over causes for 5l.; then those who were to decide cases of 20 l.; then there were the lunacy commissioners—the bankruptcy judges—and the judges to whom everything which came from the Court of Chancery would be referred; there would be, then, five different sets of functionaries to do what would be better done by one set, more efficiently and with more economy. And having once established these five sets of functionaries, if hereafter the Legislature should try to consolidate or amalgamate their offices, what would stand in the way of effecting that object? Why, these parties must be compensated, and there would naturally be a great reluctance to throw this charge on the public. He must again object to the distinction drawn between bankrupts and insolvents. Why should not the insolvent be absolved from his obligations on surrendering his property, and be enabled afterwards to support himself, and become a useful member of society? He would not then enter into the question of Imprisonment for debt on execution; he had had great satisfaction in carrying the imprisonment for Debt Bill through the House of Commons, and he was sorry that in their Lordships' House its operations was confined to arrest on mesne process. Half a loaf, however, was better than none at all. This, therefore, he hoped, was but an instalment of a debt which was due to the public. He would ask why, after four years' experience, they had not extended the operation of that act to the imprisonment on execution as well as mesne process? As to lunacy, the existing defects of the law would have been remedied by the bills of his noble and learned Friend near him (Lord Tottenham). He thought his noble and learned Friend had demonstrated that these commissioners would be unable, because they would have no time, to attend to the various duties vested in them. But he should think his noble and learned Friend on the Woolsack would hardly persist in carrying this bill; it would he better for him to defer the whole matter until he should have thoroughly digested the report then on the Table, and he thought that would make his noble and learned Friend a convert to their opinion, that there should be no distinction between insolvents and bankrupts, but
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that they should be placed under the same law. Then, as to the proposed improvements in county courts, he objected to having one judge for cases of 5l. and another for causes between 5l. and 20 1. It would be better to have one judge to do all this.
The Lord Chancellor,in reply, said, that the county courts to which an objection had been taken by the noble Lord already existed, and that all the bill did was to extend their jurisdiction from 40 s. to 5l. The new county courts did not exist, and their jurisdiction was to extend from 5l. to 20 1., so as to form a set of superior tribunals. As for the accusation that had been levelled against the bill, that he had borrowed it from a somewhat similar measure of his noble and learned Friend, the notion was ridiculous, for both his noble Friend and himself had had recourse to one common source, namely— the report of the law-commissioners, from the evidence and results of which he as well as the noble and learned Lord, had extracted much, if not all, that was valuable, and had embodied it in the bills which he and his noble and learned Friend had respectively introduced into their Lordships' House. In point of fact, both the bills which had been brought into their Lordships' House had been drawn by the same person, namely — Mr. Holroyd. It had also been said during the course of the debate that the commissioners of bankruptcy were not numerous enough to transact the business of the court within 100 miles of the metropolis; at all events experience proved that they were sufficiently numerous to transact all the business of the court within 40 miles of London. It was likewise asserted, that ten commissioners would not be equal to the performance of the country duties of the bankruptcy courts. So far was this from being true, that the number of bankruptcy cases throughout the country, taken altogether, did not amount to those of the metropolis. This fact was proved by the returns. Then, again, as to the lunacy commissions issued in the country, taking the average the number of lunacy commissions amounted to forty in the course of the year; of these one-fifth only were contested, and of the remainder, so vast a proportion of cases were tried in London, that one commissioner was quite sufficient to dispose of all the country cases of lunacy. With respect to the nature and importance of the cases which were to be tried under the present bill, all he could say, as far as the soundness of the judgments were concerned was, that Such cases

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were always tried by an inferior class of judges, even in the metropolis; for the superior judges had always quite enough to do in their respective courts. The judges who would be appointed in the new county courts to try the 5l. to 20 1. causes would be persons selected from the most practised and able barristers in Westminster hall, and they, in addition to their general knowledge of the law and of the forms of practice. would have the merit of being perfectly free from all local influence in the courts to which they might he appointed, In conclusion, he begged to say that he had acted, in bringing in the bill before their Lordships, upon what he conceived to be a sound principle of legislation; and he had also endeavoured to accomplish what was easy of attainment, postponing what was matter of difficulty for after consideration.
Bill was read a second time.
House adjourned.