Lords Sitting of 12 July 1842

Preamble
MINUTES.] BILLS. 2a Drainage (Ireland); Charitable Pawn Offices (Ireland).
Committed and Reported.—Perth Prison.
Committed.—Right of Voting (Dublin University)
3a. and passed:—Stock in Trade; Sudbury Disfranchisement; Witnesses Indemnity.
Private.—1a Cambuslang and Muirkirk Roads (No. 2).
Reported.—London Bridge and Royal Exchange Avenues; Imperial Bank of England (specially); London and Greenwich Railway (No. 3).
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From G. Walter, for placing the centre of Gravity in Railway Carriages as low as possible. —By the Earl of Radnor, the Earl of Galloway, and Lord Lyttleton, from Colliers of Loanhead and their families, Edinburgh, Brimstang, the Guardians of Dudley Union, Colliers of Bannockburn, and Greenyard Collieries, and of Engineers under 21 years of age in the Staffordshire Collieries Bill, against the Mines and Collieries Bill. By Lord Brougham, the Earl of Wicklow, Lord Monteagle, and the Earl of Stanhope, from Coal Miners and others of Dewsburn, of the Bantaskine and Callendar, Mines near Falkirk, and in the county of Lanark, for the Mines and Collieries Bill—By the Marquess of Londonderry, the Earl of Scarborough, Lord Dunmore, from Owners, Lessees, and Occupiers of Mines in the South District of Stafford, and the West Riding of York, to be heard by counsel against the Mines and Collieries Bill.—From the Working Classes of the Shropshire District, against the clause restricting the Time of Employment of Male Persons under the age of Thirteen.—By Lord Redesdale, from Birmingham, for the Better Regulation of their Police Force, and that they may speedily be relieved from the present Charter of Incorporation,—From Sudbury.
2
against the Sudbury Disfranchisement Bill.—From the Inhabitants and Proprietors of Lands flooded and injured in various parts of Ulster, against the Drainage (Ireland) Bill.—From Several Individuals, for an Alteration of the Bankrupt Law.

MINES AND COLLIERIES.
The Marquess of Londonderryhaving presented several petitions against the Bill on their Lordships' Table, for the regulation of Employment in Mines and Collieries, proceeded to say, that the last petition from a number of coal-owners in! the counties of Northumberland and Durham, assembled at Newcastle-upon-Tyne,! and disclaimed in the strongest and most distinct manner, having been parties to any arrangement or compromise with respect to this bill. He believed, that the promoters of this bill owed a great deal of the support it had received to the notion, that the coal-owners of Durham and Northumberland had agreed to one part of the bill. He had heard of compromises with respect to election petitions, and seats in Parliament, but, for the first lime, he heard it asserted, that a compromise could take place in which one of the parties not only would not agree to the arrangement,

3
but were altogether opposed to it, and protested against it. It had been said, that Mr. Buddle, his agent, had, on the part of the coal-owners, met Lord Ashley, and had been (as we understood) a party to the compromise. Now, Mr. Buddle had written to him, denying that he had been a party to any such compromise, or that he had been authorised to enter into any compromise. The fact was, Mr. Buddle was coming up to town upon business, and the coal-owners had thought that they might take that opportunity of allowing Mr. Buddle to call on Lord Ashley, and explain the views they entertained with respect to this bill. But they had not authorised Mr. Buddle to enter into any compromise or arrangement whatever, neither had he done so. As much misconception prevailed on the subject, he had received a letter from Mr. Buddle, explaining his part in the tran action, and which letter he would no read:
"Pansher Colliery, 9th July, 1842.
"My LORD—I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your Lordship's letter of yesterday, and, in answer to your Lordship's inquiry, I beg to state that I was not ' on the part of the coal-owners of Durham and Northumberland, authorised and instructed to make a compromise, and gain the best terms I could, upon which the opposition of the coal-owners of the north was to be withdrawn.' The following are the facts of the case.
"I happened to be going to London on your Lordship's business, of which the committee availed themselves to request me to confer with your Lordship, Mr. Bell, Mr. Lambton, and other Members, for the purpose of endeavouring to induce Lord Ashley to accede to their unanimous wish, for ten years to be the minimum age of the trappers, and eighteen that of the brake or engine men.
"This, to the best of my recollection, was the extent of my instructions; but I have written to the clerk, at the coal-trade office, to send your Lordship a copy of the resolutions of the committee, containing those instructions, which will show the extent of my instructions on the occasion. I had a private interview with Lord Ashley on the 18th of June, at his Lordship's house, in Upper Brook-street. His Lordship received me with the utmost courtesy, and discussed the subject of my visit in the most candid and open manner.
"His Lordship was very firm in his opinion that boys should not be sent down the pits till they were thirteen years old. I urged that ten should be the standard; and, after considerable discussion, his Lordship intimated, that he might probably concede the point,
4
provided the day's work were limited to six hours, or that the boys should only work three days of twelve hours each in the week.
"I told his Lordship, that I was not authorised to take upon myself the responsibility of making such a compromise: and, therefore, begged his Lordship to leave the matter open, till the meeting with Messrs. Bell and Lambton, and other Members, which had been previously appointed to take place at the House of Commons.
"I attended this meeting on the 20th of June, at which were present, to the best of my recollection, Lords Wharncliffe, Ashley, and Lord Henry Vane, with Messrs. Bell, Bowes, Liddell, Lambton, Losh, Granger, and Brotherton. Much discussion took place, and the parties present ultimately agreed to accept the conditions conceded by Lord Ashley, viz., to limit the age to ten years for boys to be sent into the pits, and that they should be limited to three days in the week, to be wrought alternately. Engine men not to be entrusted with human life before they arrive at the age of twenty-one, but no limitation of age for their superannuation was fixed.
"On returning to the North, I found the above compromise not at all satisfactory either to the committee or the body of coal-owners generally, especially as to the alternate days working of the boys, which will be attended with many practical difficulties. And there are other objectionable points in the Bill, as limiting the time for the ' employment of any such male person to one month after the passing of this Act.' And for the prohibiting of such male person from being employed, during one and the same week, in more than one mine or colliery, unless the mine or colliery, in which he shall be employed, shall belong to the same owner.
"The appointment of inspectors underground is also very objectionable, and the penalties for offences against the act are considered to be too high. For these reasons, and other considerations, the body of coal-owners are desirous that more time should be allowed for deliberation, and that the Bill should not be hurried through Parliament this Session.
"The petition presented by your Lordship to the House of Lords, was, I believe, forwarded to your Lordship from Newcastle, on the 11th of June, and a similar petition was at the same time sent to Mr. Bell, to present it to the House of Commons.—I have the honour to be, my Lord, your Lordship's most obedient faithful servant,
"JOHN BUDDLE.
"The Marquess of Londonderry, &c. &c."
As had been alluded to in the letter which he had now read, he had also been furnished with a copy of those instructions which he would stale to their Lordships:—
(Copy.)
"Chester-le-Street, June 13,1842.
"Meeting of the United Committee— Present:
"TYNE.—R. W. Brandling, Esq. (chairman), Mr. Buddle, Mr. Losh, Mr. Carr, Mr. H. Taylor, Mr. N. Wood, Mr. George Johnson.
"WEAR.—Mr. Norton, Mr. Hunter.
"TEES.—Mr. Seymour, Mr. Seppings, Mr. Turnbull.
"Lord Ashley's Bill to prohibit the employment of women and girls in mines and collieries, to regulate the employment of boys, and make provision for the safety of persons working therein, having been read, resolved—
"1. That in the opinion of this meeting the age of ten years is the proper period at which the boys should be taken down the pit, to commence the easy employment in which they are first engaged.
"2. That it is the opinion of this meeting, founded on long experience, that after the age above-mentioned the boys do not acquire those habits which are peculiarly necessary to enable them to perform their work in the mines.
"3. That it would be a great hardship to families, and especially to widows, that their children should be kept out of the pit after they become able to work at the early stages of pit work.
"4. That it is the opinion of this meeting that it would be attended with great hardship to make the act retrospective, except as regards boys below the age of eight years.
"5. That the clause regarding the age of the engineman should be altered, so as to make the age of commencement eighteen years, and to continue so long as they are capable of performing their duties to the satisfaction of the engineer of the colliery.
"6. That Mr. Buddle be instructed to wait on Lord Ashley to explain the above views of the committee, and to obtain the assistance of Lord Londonderry, Mr. Bell, Mr. Lambton, or any other nobleman or gentleman connected with the North in enforcing these opinions."
This was sufficient to show that something like a manœuvre had been practised, he would not say intentionally, to induce a belief that the coal-owners had given up their opposition to the Bill; and this notion was entertained in opposition to the deliberate opinions of the coal-owners on the subject as set forth in their petitions. He had received the following letter, which would further explain what were the opinions of the coal-owners on the subject:—
"Low Gosforth, July 10, 1842.
"My dear Marquess—At the close of the proceedings, at the general meeting of the coal trade, on Thursday last, a resolution was
6
passed, which I shall take the liberty of subjoining, as it may be agreeable to your Lordships to see, that the feelings of the meeting were in unison with those sentiments which your Lordship entertains respecting the necessity for legislative interference with the conduct of the mines of Northumberland and Durham. I am quite aware of the extent of the obligation your Lordship has conferred upon the trade by your exertions in this matter; and confidently hope, when the bill is regularly before the House of Lords, that the influence which your Lordship's superior knowledge of the subject must give you will enable you to secure the postponement.—I am, my dear Marquess, yours sincerely,
"ROB. W. BRANDLING.
"'Resolved—That the best, thanks of this meeting be given to the Members of the House of Commons who used their utmost exertions to prevent the imposition of the export duty on coals, and to guard against any unnecessary restriction being imposed upon the coal trade of Northumberland and Durham by the act recently introduced for regulating labour in coal mines.' "
It seemed to him somewhat extraordinary that on so great a measure as this, and one which affected such large and important interests, not a single division had taken place in the House of Commons. He thought it also extraordinary that upon a question of such commercial importance no Cabinet Minister had expressed any opinion upon it. He was anxious to know whether the bill was to be promoted in that House by the influence of the Government, and with all his confidence in the present Government he would look upon it as an extraordinary proceeding, and it would diminish the great confidence he possessed in their capacity to direct public affairs if they allowed a bill of this importance to pass without expressing an opinion upon it. The public ought to know the decision to which the Government had come. He hoped that the noble Lord the President of the Council, who knew what were the opinions entertained by the coal-owners of the north, would state what were the intentions of the Government respecting this bill. The noble Marquess opposite (the Marquess of Lansdowne) had on a former occasion made allusion to the high character of the commissioners. Those gentlemen were formerly factory commissioners, and they had then been sent to inquire into the mines. He had received several communications respecting those gentlemen, which he would now read to the House. The noble Lord

7
was proceeding to read these communications, when he was called to order by
Lord Wharncliffe,who protested against the inconvenience of reading private letters.
The Marquess of Londonderrysaid, the communications were not private, but he would not press the reading of them. He hoped that their Lordships would legislate on this subject with due deliberation, and that they would not be influenced by the consideration that this bill had passed the House of Commons unanimously.
Lord Wharncliffe,in reply to the question put to him, would state that the Government had taken no part whatever with respect to this bill. The Government intended to remain perfectly passive with respect to the bill; but though they would take no part as a Government they would as individuals. He had a strong opinion with respect to certain parts of the bill, but he would reserve that opinion for a fitting occasion.
The Marquess of Clanricardesaid, that the noble Marquess had given the transaction referred to a character which did not belong to it in supposing it to be a question between Lord Ashley's feelings and those of the coal-owners, instead of an important public measure. Lord Ashley deserved much credit for the part he had taken, and that credit had been awarded him by the unanimous voice of the country. Those gentlemen who acted in the manner referred to were connected with those parts of the country which the bill more particularly affected, and he had seen letters which stated that the bill would be supported provided the alterations that were pressed upon them were agreed to—certainly, if there was not an agreement there was an understanding come to on the subject.
Petitions to lie on the Table.

EDUCATION — SINGING CLASSES.
Lord Wharncliffethen rose, pursuant to notice, to present a petition from 1,600 persons who were receiving instruction in the classes instituted for the purpose of elementary education, under the sanction of the Committee of Privy Council, at Exeter-hall. The point which he bad sought to establish in presenting this petition, was, that it was the duty of Parliament to afford support to these most useful classes. The first classes which were established were singing classes, and
8
their original idea was confined to the instruction of schoolmasters and mistresses, of persons who attended for the purpose of afterwards instructing others, and so it went on for some time, but by degrees the direct sphere of utility became enlarged, and class after class was formed of persons who attended for the purpose of learning singing on their own account. The undertaking was originated in the latter end of 1841, and at the present moment there were no fewer than 50,000 persons attending the singing classes of Mr. Hullah and his pupils, instead of one class only, as in the latter end of 1841, there were now fifteen classes, composed of persons of various grades in society—from those in the middle ranks, persons of easy circumstances, down to the humblest workpeople —all of them exhibiting the utmost desire to profit by the instruction thus afforded. In the beginning of this year it was found that the instruction in singing had induced the persons who attended these classes to form a strong wish for instruction in other elementary branches of education; and on this desire being made known, the persons who originated the instruction determined to accede to it, and accordingly classes were formed, one for writing, another for arithmetic, and a third for linear drawing. These had also answered the purpose well. There were now no fewer than 750 persons taking lessons in these three elementary branches of education. Should these institutions be enabled to continue their useful labours, there could be no doubt that in a very short time a large portion of the lower classes in the metropolis would be withdrawn from the public-houses, to which they now resorted for their evening's occupation and amusement, and the vicious habits which at present degraded and pauperized so many thousands of persons, would be in great measure abandoned. During the first year, this institution was supported by the payment from the persons instructed, and by private contributions. He would mention the amount which had been paid by the pupils. The schoolmasters and mistresses paid 15 s. for sixty lessons; mechanics, and other per. sons in a still more humble sphere, paid 8s. or 10 s. for the same number of lessons; while those who could afford it paid 30 s., or 6d. a lesson. In this manner the best masters that could be obtained in the respective branches were provided, and the whole of Exeter-hall was engaged for the

9
accommodation of the pupils. It was soon found, however, that there was so large an increase of attendance, that the former payments were quite inadequate; and, accordingly, towards the end of last Session, a petition was presented from these institutions to the committee of Privy Council, praying for support out of the education fund, but the reply of the committee necessarily was, that however cordially they might support the views of these institutions, they were precluded by the form of the grant for education from applying any portion of it to this purpose. He had then recommended to the Gentlemen who managed these institutions that choral meetings should be publicly held for the purpose of at once making the value of the institutions known, and of adding immediately to its funds. These choral meetings had accordingly been given, and with success, to a certain extent; for 900 l. had been realized by them, and a most interesting and valuable spectacle had been afforded to the public of 1,600 pupils of this institution singing together in the most correct and excellent manner, and giving proofs of how much had been done in a very short time. These meetings had given the highest satisfaction to ail those who had attended them, and there were many musical professors of eminence—amongst others, the celebrated Mendelssohn, who had spoken in the warmest terms of the performance. The question, then, was — these classes having been thus established with the most beneficial results hitherto, and with the certain prospect of conferring upon the people of this country a great national and individual boon—whether it was not most desirable that Parliament should lend them its support. Notwithstanding all the exertions that had been made by the institution itself, in its various branches, there was still an unavoidable and considerable deficiency of funds. With reference to Mr. Hullah himself, who had been spoken of as having made so good a thing of these classes, the fact most honourable to himself was, that up to the present moment he had given his valuable time and services for nothing. All that he had ever asked for himself was 30 s. per night; but not one shilling of this had been received, for he had invariably declined pressing for one moment this very moderate claim, in order not to embarrass the limited funds of the institution. It was,
10
therefore, highly desirable that the Committee of Privy Council should be empowered to use its discretion in reference to applying some portion of the education grant to the most useful purposes in question, and here he begged to make a few remarks upon the general question of the education of this country, as connected with the grant allowed by the House of Commons for this purpose; and he thought that it was hardly necessary for him to show that the sum of 30,000 l., which was row annually granted for the purposes of education, was altogether insufficient for that highly essential object. If it. were really considered a desirable thing, as most assuredly it was, that an impulse should he given to education in this country, then he felt that the House of Commons would not be doing its duty if it refused to increase this grant. The expenses under this head last year were 46,000 l., of which 16,000 l. were defrayed by a balance to that amount which remained from the preceding year. There was a balance of l6,000 l. left from the previous year, to be added to the 30,000 l. voted in 1841, which was to be left at the disposal of the Committee of the Privy Council, so as to enable them to make larger disbursements. The original purpose of the grant was to promote the building of school-houses; and although this object was well worthy of support, and well worth the money given—although there might be some doubts as to whether the money was well applied in some cases—they had found that schools had been built which were not very likely to last very long. Persons were aware that if they subscribed a certain sum, there was a fund from which they could get an equal amount towards the erection of schools, and no doubt in many cases this had been productive of great good. The question, then, was, whether a grant of money should not be voted for the establishment of normal schools, that was, schools for the education of schoolmasters and schoolmistresses. Before the present Government came into office 5,000 l. had been voted to the National Society, and 5,000 l. to the British and Foreign School Society, and another sum to Scotland for rearing schoolmasters. A normal school had been founded in Glasgow by a private individual, and it had produced a great many most excellent schoolmasters. The directors of this school wished to be relieved from the

11
superintendence of it, but as there was a want of unity in some respects between these schools and the general kirk, the Government thought it advisable to say that they would take upon themselves the charge, if Mr. Stone and the other Gentlemen connected with the school would give it up to the control of the General Assembly. Those persons willingly assented, and the Government then informed the General Assembly that it was willing to propose to Parliament to grant 5,000 l. for the establishment of a normal school at Edinburgh, and 5,000 l. for the school at Glasgow, if that body would take the matter under their superintendence. That body willingly assented, and he hoped that the House of Commons and the country would enable the Government to make these grants. He believed that the establishment of normal schools in Scotland would be attended with the most beneficial effects. The knowledge of this grant had produced other requests for schools of a similar nature from various quarters. For instance, they had been applied to by the diocesan board of Chester, and they had been able to make such an arrangement as to accede to the request to make a grant of 2,000 l. Similar calls had been made on them by other diocesan bodies, and from the National School, and from the British and Foreign School Society, and it was under consideration whether they should give annual sums to each of those bodies for normal schools. The Government wished to act with the most perfect fairness in this matter, and they therefore considered that they could only give them sums on certain conditions, and until the parties were in a state to fulfil these conditions no grant was made. He believed that such an arrangement might be made as to give a sum for this purpose this year, but he could not tell the amount that would be required. There were at present claims before the committee which, if acceded to, would far surpass any means at the disposal of the committee. He, however, was sure that the country would willingly grant a large sum for this purpose, if they found that the money was fairly and impartially distributed. The latter circumstance must mainly depend on the conduct of the persons in whom the distribution rested, and he confessed that he should be ashamed if in a matter of education any difference should be made be-
12
tween Churchmen and Dissenters. He was willing to leave a large share of the education of the country to the Church, connected as it was with the State; but strongly attached as he was to the Church, he must say that the Church itself was deeply indebted to the Dissenters for the example that they had set as regarded the education of the people. The Church, then, was a body to which the State could give the education of the country, in cases where there was no interference with other classes. At the same time Government must take care that the sums thus granted were disposed of in a satisfactory manner. He must then state that he believed the public money would be thrown away without adopting a system of inspection in these schools. This right of inspection roust be actually secured in the deed, which would be signed when the grant was made. He believed that there was no indisposition on the part of the major part of the clergy to having the schools under their care visited by the inspectors; he should therefore take care that that should be done in all cases where a grant of money was made. Some difficulty, how-ever, might arise as to what were the duties of the inspector, and therefore instructions must be drawn up by the committee of the Council on this subject. There was no doubt that Parliament had a perfect right to call for the reports of the inspectors, not only with the view of seeing what was the state of education in the country, but also that they might know whether the money it had granted had been properly expended or not. He admitted that he thought it would be inexpedient to enforce inspection and returns from schools which were supported by individuals without any grant of money from the public. He thought that private persons would abstain from forming schools if rules were enforced on them by the inspectors, and if reports on the subject were to be laid before Parliament. At the same time he thought that if no reports were called for the inspectors would often be invited to inspect schools established by private persons, and their suggestions might be attended with beneficial effects. With respect to the schools supported by grants of the public money, he thought that the reports of the inspectors would enable the Council to draw up a general report on the state of education throughout the country, so that a tolerably accurate

13
notion might be formed as to the general state of education, and that without interfering with private schools. The want of education in this country was so great, that it had become absolutely necessary to meet the evil full in the face. The Legislature must, therefore, determine to adopt the best plan that they could find to counteract the efforts which had resulted from the present state of things. The House had to say whether the present system of control was the best that could be adopted. For his own part, filling as he did the office of chairman of the committee of the Privy Council, he was ready to do his duty towards promoting this great and important object, and he confessed he thought that for the present, at least the committee might well and advantageously be made the centre of action for this country. If Parliament, then, would make a grant, there did exist the means for furnishing this agent for civilisation and morality; and he was sure, under the proposed arrangement, it would progress in a degree which had never been seen before in this country. They must, however, take care that they did not proceed too fast, but if they proceeded with judgment and care in a proper direction, he believed that this country in a few years would become one of the best educated countries in the world.
The Marquess of Lansdownehad listened to the whole of the speech of his noble Friend with great satisfaction, describing as it did the state of education in this country; and he was more particularly pleased with the general sentiments on the subject of education which had been put forth by the noble Lord, which might be taken as an indication of the opinions of his Colleagues, and that they would follow up and extend the system and principles of education which had been sanctioned by Parliament for some years, and which he had been called upon to defend for three or four years. The noble Lord had clearly shown the great advantages that had resulted from the general musical system of education which had recently been adopted. This system was started by subscription from a few private individuals in a school in the vicinity of the metropolis. It had been brought under his notice in October, 1840, when he had the honour of filling the office now held by the noble Lord, and be then did not hesitate to give the opinion
14
which the noble Lord had repeated that night, namely, that however desirable it was to adopt this plan as part, of a national system of education, under the peculiar circumstances of the grant at the disposal of the committee of the Privy Council, he should not be justified in recommending it. No step was at that time taken further than the formation of a private subscription, amply adequate for the purpose of making that trial which he felt confident would ultimately lead to the adoption of the system by the public, and to its being recommended to the attention of Parliament. The success of that experiment had far outstripped his expectations, for in the course of a very few mouths, he believed before the close of the year 1840, no fewer than seventy persons attended the course which was held at Exeter-hall, and before the spring of the next year three classes of 100 each were formed, and month after month the number increased of persons desirous to avail themselves of the benefits of instruction. And even at that early stage the progress of the system was not confined to the metropolis, but numbers came from various parts of the country, and many from a distance, to enjoy the advantages of this education. The number had now reached about 2,500, and the expenditure incurred was very trifling in comparison with the amount of benefit conferred. One great advantage of this system was that it included not only persons conducted by their ear or the peculiarity of their constitution to the study and the practice of music, but it comprised the pleasure and the utility of music, for it had utility as well as pleasure to every species of physical constitution, and enabled whole masses to partake at once of its pleasure and its beneficial results. It was, therefore, a very fit question for Parliament to consider, whether it would enable the committee of Privy Council to apply a portion of the grants voted for the purposes of public education to this particular branch of instruction. But great as was his anxiety to see such assistance given, he should be sorry to see any portion on that account deducted from the grants for general education; but, on the contrary, he wanted to see these grants extended also, and even beyond the amount that might be required for the particular service in question, for great as had been the success of

15
the new system, it had never been contemplated that the amount should be confined to its present limited amount; but that when a more unanimous, and he would say a more liberal and generous spirit should be found to pervade the country in favour of education, the public grants should be considered with a view to their extension. He had great satisfaction in finding that the effect of these grants had been progressive, for there was not a month since the origin of the system that had not added to the number of applicants for assistance to institute such schools, and an immense amount of private zeal had been called into action, thousands of schools having been established and being now in a flourishing condition, owing to the stimulus given by these grants. With respect to the inspection he thought it ought to be exercised under an authority independent of the local authorities under whose management the school was conducted; and he was glad to find it admitted now, that, in the absence of any department in this country to preside over education, no authority could be selected which was more fit to exercise the functions of inspection and control than the committee of the Privy Council; and he rejoiced that some, who had entertained the strongest objections to the constitution of that tribunal, had now so far waived their hostility to it, as not only to suffer those functions to be exercised by others, but even to have consented to become Members of it themselves. He was glad that the noble President of the Council intended to propose annual grants for some of the normal schools, provided they were administered, as no doubt would be the case, with impartiality, and preserving the authority of inspection, which was absolutely necessary, both to secure the strict application of the grant, and for the purposes of making the normal schools available for the improvement of other schools. It might also be desirable to extend inspection to schools which did not receive any public money, with the implied condition that the reports relating to them should not be laid before Parliament. There was one document which proved in a most forcible manner the necessity for an extension of education amongst the working classes in this country. It was the opinion given of the respective capacities of the natives of dif-
16
ferent countries, by a person at the head of one of the most extensive manufactories in the world, in a manufactory at Zurich, in which Swiss, Saxons, Italians, French, and English were employed as mechanics. He was asked,
"What, however, do you find to be the difference of acquisition imparted by specific training and education?"
His answer was,
"As workmen only, the preference is undoubtedly due to Englishmen, because, as we find them, they are all trained to a specific branch, on which they have had a comparatively superior training, and on which all their thoughts are concentrated; as men of business, however, and of general usefulness, we prefer the Saxons and the Swiss, but more especially the Saxons, because they have had a careful general education, which has extended their capacities beyond any special employment, and has rendered them fit to undertake any species of business. If I have an English workman engaged in the erection of a steam engine, he will understand it, and nothing else, but with respect to other branches of machinery, however closely allied to the steam engine, he will be completely helpless to adapt himself to the circumstances which may arise—to make arrangements for them, or to give sound advice respecting them."
This was evidence which came from an impartial witness, and was the most remarkable testimony which he had seen borne to the absolute necessity which at all times, but above all at the present time, existed, when thousands might from day to day be ejected from the employment in which they had been engaged, and might be called upon to adapt themselves to the circumstances which might arise for the Government, in pursuance of a wise and liberal policy, to endeavour by every means which Parliamentary grants gave them, to aid in the private exertions which were being made to extend the general principle of Education, and to hasten the time when there should be a general development of the educational system of England, so that the English mechanic might be enabled to meet the exigencies which might present themselves.
Lord Broughammost heartily concurred in thanking his noble Friend opposite for the statement which he had made, and in expressing himself satisfied with the course which the Government had taken on this subject. His only regret was, that the noble Lord had not been prepared to go further, and his only difference from the noble Lord was in the apprehensions

17
which he had expressed, and in which he, for his own part, did not share at all—that the progress of education should be too rapid. He had been so long, endeavouring to promote the object of education however, that any—however moderate —advance gave him hopes that ere long he might look for an even accelerated pace in: the progress of this great cause, and he professed that it was one of the very last things which he feared, that too great an impetus should have been given to it. No doubt, the steps which had been already taken were in the right path, and! he would not stop to complain of the degree in which he contended they had fallen short of that which he viewed as I necessary, because, in all that had been I done, he entirely agreed. There was one part of the statement of the noble Lord, | however, which he had heard with some surprise. He had said, that 5,000 l had been put under the direction of the General Assembly of Scotland, for the purposes of the training schools. No one had a higher respect for that assembly than he had, but he could not help thinking that it would be highly desirable that some i arrangement should be made for dissenting in Scotland a portion of this grant amongst the dissenting bodies—the bodies not in connection with the General Assembly—in the same manner as it was distributed to bodies in a similar situation in England. He begged, therefore, to suggest to the noble Lord, that in the event of another grant being obtained, as he had no doubt it would be obtained, some arrangement with this view should be effected.
Lord Wharncliffe: If the dissenting body in Scotland would form such an association as existed in England, and would undertake to build a normal school, the time would then arrive for their applying for a part of the grant.
Petition laid on the Table.
Adjourned at a quarter before eight o'clock.