Lords Sitting of 10 February 1842

MINUTES.
Bills. 2a and Committed,—Borough's Improvement; Buildings Regulation; Appropriation Acts Amendment.
Petitions presented. By Viscount Melbourne, from Worcester, and other places, by the Marquess of Normanby, from Hull, and other places, by Earl Fitzwilliam, from Staley Bridge, and several other places, and by the Earl of Kinnaird, from Dundee, and other places, for the Repeal of the Corn and Provision Laws.—By a noble Lord, from Presbyterians of Athlone, to render Marriages valid between Presbyterians and members of the Church of England.—By the Duke of Richmond, from Ticehurst, to exempt Small Tenements from Rates.—From Stephen Geary, for adoption of his Fire Escape.

BUILDINGS REGULATIONS AND BOROUGH IMPROVEMENTS.
The Marquess of Normanby,

* THE NEW CORN LAW SCALE.

THE FOLLOWING IS A TABULAR STATEMENT OF THE SCALE OF DUTIES ON FOREIGN GRAIN PROPOSED IN SIR ROBERT PEEL'S SPEECH.

WHEAT.

PRICE

Proposed Duty.

—

s.

s.

s.

At 50 & under

51

20

For every quarter under 51 s.

51

..

52

19

52

..

53

18

At 52 s. and under 55 s.

53

..

54

54

..

55

55

..

56

17

56

..

57

16

57

..

58

15

58

..

59

14

59

..

60

13

60

..

61

12

61

..

62

11

62

..

63

10

63

..

64

9

64

..

65

8

65

..

66

7

66

..

67

6

At 66 s. and under 69 s.

67

..

68

68

..

69

69

..

70

5

70

..

71

4

71

..

72

3

72

..

73

2

73 or above

1

in moving the Order of the Day for the second reading of the Buildings Regulations Bill, expressed his surprise at finding, that it was intended to be opposed, and that by a noble Marquess (the Marquess of Salisbury) who had attended the committee with great industry, and who had not resisted the progress of this measure and of the Drainage Bill upon either of the two former occasions, when they had been unanimously passed by their Lordships. Under these circumstances, he (the Marquess of Normanby) regretted extremely the absence of a noble Lord in India, who had formerly rendered him most essential aid, as well as of a right rev. Prelate, who had also contributed most valuable assistance. As he had now more leisure than when in office, he had taken the opportunity of personally inspecting some of the most densely crowded and poorest districts, not merely in some country towns, but, during the last few days, in the metropolis, and within the daily reach of any of their Lordships; he did

BARLEY.

PRICE.

Proposed Duty.

—

s..

s.

s.

At 25 & under

26

11

26

..

27

10

27

..

28

9

28

..

29

9

29

..

30

9

30

..

31

8

31

..

32

7

32

..

33

6

33

..

34

5

34

..

35

4

35

..

36

3

36

..

37

2

37

…

1

27 s. & upwards.

not wish noble Lords who agreed with him, to harrow up their feelings by witnessing such scenes, but he asked those who were opposed to him, to visit those neighbourhoods, and by the evidence of their own senses, to ascertain how much the prevailing misery had been understated. They would, surely, then, no longer resist the progress of measures which had for their object the remedy of such crying and increasing evil. In the neighbourhood of Whitechapel, they would find court within court, and alley within alley, inhabited by thousands, to reach whom the breath of Heaven had to thread a labyrinth of pestiferous avenues, full of accumulated and disgusting filth. All this might have been avoided, if, only thirty years ago, the Legislature had interfered to promote the circulation of air and cleanliness. He had also been to Bethnal-green, accompanied by a medical man, whose evidence had been much read and studied, in the reports on which he had founded these measures, and who took great and most humane interest in the subject. There he found 75,000 persons living in that parish, 50,000 of whom resided where there was no drainage of any kind. He went into the dwelling of a weaver, who had a wife and children, the children had never been without fever from the poisonous exhalations of stagnant filth, and he was compelled to pay 15 s. a-month for a lodging, although his wages in the present state of depression, were only 10 s. per week. One third of his earnings went, therefore, to secure him this foul residence, amidst dirt and disease. In some districts, the evil had even recently been created by the delay of legislation, and whole streets had been run up with extraordinary rapidity directly in the teeth of the bills upon the Table. Those bills would not, it was true, remedy immediately the evils against which they were directed, but they would correct them in future, and they would be of most essential service to a class of persons least protected, and who lived in crowded, and absolutely pestiferous neighbourhoods.
On the question, that the bill be read a second time,
The Marquess of Salisburyhad not intended to offer any opposition to the general principle of this bill (for he was aware that some legislative measure on the subject was called for) until he saw it in print that day. He had attended the committee on the bill, but circumstances over which he had no control had called

239
him out of town; and he was also prevented from attending during the last short Session of Parliament. His objection to this bill was, that in its details it tended to perpetuate the very evils which it professed to remove. Another ground of objection was, that he did not think there was sufficient information on the subject before the House, and he should wish to have it referred back to the committee. It was asked why the people should like to live in those dens, as they were called, and the answer was, because they could not afford to pay for better. Any regulations which would enforce the erection of better houses, and with means of preserving greater cleanliness would necessarily increase the expense of building, and that would enhance the rent to be paid by the tenant; and, if they could not pay for the better and more cleanly habitations, they would of necessity be forced to remain in their present unclean houses, or be driven into the streets. In the town of Manchester there were, it was said, 15,000 persons living in cellars; but though many of the poorer classes in Manchester might not be as sensible of the comforts of cleanliness as those in other places, yet still it was reasonable to infer that so many persons would not prefer to dwell in such places if they could pay for better accommodation elsewhere. As to the Drainage Bill, which the noble Marquess had also introduced, he would not offer any objection to it, as he thought it was one which would do much good. It should be the policy of the Legislature to encourage buildings as much as possible, which would have the effect of lowering rents by the competition thus created; but the present bill would discourage all small buildings by rendering them too expensive. One clause in this bill was, that no persons should be allowed to dwell in cellars which had not chimnies with proper flues to them; but if this rule were applied to the 15,000 persons occupying the cellars in Manchester, to which he had referred, it would have the effect of turning them into the streets; for, as he had said, they would not have those cellars if they could afford to pay for better places of abode. If their Lordships could so improve the wages of labour as to enable the working classes to pay for better accommodation he should not object to this bill; but if the condition of the poor could not be otherwise improved this
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would only make them worse. The average expense of building a small house or cottage, for which a rent of nine guineas could be got was about 96 l., and, taking the hazard of loss and all charges, that could not be considered too high a return for such an outlay. He would, therefore, again contend, that any increase of expenditure in improving the condition of the house would not operate favourably to the persons now occupying small and inconvenient habitations, for they would not remain in them if they could afford to pay for better. He agreed with the noble Marquess that there were many scenes of great filth in many of the crowded neighbourhoods in and near the metropolis; but he must repeat that the present measure would aggravate the evils it was intended to cure. With those clauses of the bill which went to widen and improve streets he would concur, but there were so many other clauses from which he differed, that he had no alternative but to oppose the bill altogether.
The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, that having supported these measures in previous Sessions, he should give his vote in favour of them on the present occasion.
The Marquess of Normanby,said, in answer to the Marquess of Salisbury, that in the temper of the House, and the evident disposition not to change the course previously pursued, but to sanction the bills as he had again presented them, he did not feel it necessary to enter into any detailed reply to arguments which, after all, though coupled with a motion against the second reading, were merely objections to detail. He, however, entirely denied the justice of the assumption, that the poor lived in these dens, as the noble Marquess joined in calling them, because they could not afford better. His information led him to believe that speculators made exorbitant profits from the working classes being obliged to dwell in certain localities. It was these profits he meant to reduce. The instance given by the noble Marquess confirmed, rather than contradicted this view. As for living in cellars, ample time was given for removal to other dwellings, before the prohibition came into operation, which was at the end of nine years, to this extent, that no cellar at present inhabited, should continue to be so, unless it had a window, an area, and a fire-place—surely, this was not requiring too much.
The Marquess of Salisburywould with-

241
draw his opposition if the noble Marquess would consent to refer the subject again to a select committee.
The Marquess of Normanbycould give no such pledge, but would promise, that any suggestions the noble Marquess at that time made should be received with the utmost attention, in order that the bill might be rendered as unobjectionable as possible.
The bill read a second time.
The Borough Improvement Bill also read a second time.

CORN LAWS.—PETITIONS.
Lord Kinnairdpresented petitions from ten thousand of the inhabitants of Dundee, and from many other places in Scotland, for a total abolition of the Corn-laws. On presenting these petitions, he wished to offer a few observations upon the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman at the head of her Majesty's Government last night. He had read that statement with the greatest regret. He felt certain that the measure announced by the right hon. Gentleman would be received by all throughout the country with the greatest disappointment. Before he resumed his seat, he wished to ask the noble Duke and her Majesty's Government whether a petition had been received from the relief committee of the town of Paisley and of Renfrew, praying that some of the corn, food, and other provisions now in bond at Liverpool and at Glasgow might be let out duty free to them as a relief to those unfortunate persons who had been subsisting for eight months on public charity?
The Duke of Wellingtonthought before the noble Lord asked a question about a petition, the presentation of which he was not certain, he should have ascertained whether the petition had been presented or not. He had not heard whether any such petition had been presented. That was all he could say upon the subject.

THE LATE LOAN. APPROPRIATION ACTS (1841) AMENDMENT.
The Duke of Wellingtonmoved the second reading of the Appropriation Acts (1841) Amendment Bill. The object of the bill was to provide that certain sums voted the Session before last, and last Session, for certain services, should now be applied to other services. The consequence of passing this bill would be, that the accounts would be simplified and certain expenses he saved
242
in allowing sums to be applied as one fund, instead of as two funds.
Lord Monteagleconcurred with the noble Duke that this bill ought to pass. It was to correct a technical mistake which arose from the inaccurate wording of the second Appropriation Act, which passed last Session, an inaccuracy which was by no means attributable to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He should, however, like to see the bill printed before the third reading, because he understood an Amendment was introduced in the other House after the bill was first printed, and he was anxious to know the nature of that amendment. Before he sat down, he wished to ask the noble Duke whether there would be any objection to lay before the House the proceedings of the Government, under the Act of the last Session, with respect to the funding of Exchequer Bills? By that Act very extraordinary powers were given to the Government—though not greater powers than the peculiar circumstances of the times required. If the operation had been simply the funding Exchequer Bills, there would not have been the necessity of any subsequent Parliamentary information on the subject; but, from the print of the bill, as originally introduced in the Commons, it appeared that the first operation contemplated was partly funding and partly receiving subscriptions in money; in the progress of the bill, however, an alteration of an important character was made—namely, that of giving a power to the Government of selling stock to any amount, to complete the sum of 5,000,000 l., which was required to be raised. That was a great power to be given to any Government, and it implied great confidence on the part of the Legislature that gave it, and good sense on the part of the party who marked his forethought in suggesting it; thus anticipating that which actually occurred; the operation of the bill would otherwise have been wholly incomplete. It gave the Government the power to go into the money market, and sell public securities whenever it thought fit; a power, in general, open to great objection, because liable to great abuse. He, however, was satisfied it had not been abused. But this being a power justified only by extreme necessity, a power of going without notice into the market, and disturbing the ordinary value of the public securities, he trusted the noble Duke would not consider he was asking anything unreasonable in requiring that there should

243
be laid before Parliament a full account of the transactions under that bill. He begged to state, that he thought the power given was absolutely necessary; and he only wished that a similar power had been given some years back in reference to the slave compensation. Under the Slave Compensation Act there was a clause which compelled the Government to contract a loan long before the money was required. The inconvenience of that course was extreme. The course taken in the present instance was a much better one; still, inasmuch as it gave a great latitude to the discretion of the Government, he hoped the noble Duke would not object to lay before the House a full account of the manner in which the trust had been exercised.
The Duke of Wellingtondid not think there would be any objection in giving the noble Lord whatever information he might think proper to require, still he would suggest to the noble Lord the expediency of his putting his request in the form of a motion.
Bill read a second time.

ROMAN CATHOLICS IN INDIA.
Lord Fitzgerald,in laying before their Lordships a statement of Mr. Blackbourne, the magistrate and collector of the district of Madura, in the presidency of Madras, respecting the treatment of certain Roman Catholics by that gentleman, begged to observe, that as he had been represented to have said on a former occasion that Mr. Blackbourne's statement was unsatisfactory, he felt it fair that he should now state that that observation did not apply to Mr. Blackbourne's statement, but that, on the contrary, so far as that gentleman's statement went, it ought to be considered satisfactory. The noble Lord then moved, that there be laid before the House copies of any further communications received since the 4th of October, 1841, relating to the Madura district, in the presidency of Madras, with respect to places of Roman Catholic worship.
Lord Cliffordwished that the official communication received by the Government from Lord Ellenborough upon this subject should be laid before Parliament.
Lord Fitzgeraldconsidered it would be a very inconvenient precedent to accede to the noble Lord's wish. He thought the noble Lord had better first peruse the papers which had been just
244
laid on the table before urging his request to have any further documents produced.
Papers laid on the Table.
Adjourned.