Lords Sitting of 1 August 1842

Preamble
MINUTES.] BILLS, Public.—1a. St. Asaph and Bangor Preferment; Dublin Boundaries; Four Courts Marshalsea (Dublin); Slave Trade (Portugal) Suppression.
2a. Stamp Duties Assimilation; Colonial Passengers; Bonded Corn; Western Australia; Parish Constables; Ordnance Service; Court of Exchequer (England).
Committed and Reported.—Assessed Taxes; Insolvent Debtors; Fisheries (Ireland); Rivers (Ireland); Primrose Hill.
3a and passed:—Came Certificates (Ireland); Stamp Duties; Mines and Collieries.
Private.—3° and passed:—St. Briavel's Small Debts.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Electors of Sudbury, to be remunerated their Expenses for defending the Borough.—From James Bowditch, complaining of Legal proceedings in Jersey.— From Schoolmasters of the Presbyteries of Biggar and Abertarph, for Improvement of their condition.—From Fishermen of the rivers Barrow and Nore, Millers of Carlow, Inhabitants of New Ross, Nobility and Gentry of Clare, against parts of the Fisheries (Ireland) Bill—From Inhabitants of Tipperary and from Guardians of Meath Union, for Alteration of the Poor-law.—From Colliers Male and Female, of Wellwood and Fordell Collieries, against the Mines and Collieries Bill.—From Carrigallin, for Encouragement of Schools in connection with the Church Education Society.—From Rate-payers of Exeter, against Municipal Corporations Bill.—From Members of Ashton-under-Lyne, and Dukinfield Mechanic's Institutions, to exempt such Institutions from Rates and Taxes.—From Medical Practitioners of Berwick-on-Tweed, against the proposed Medical Reform.

BONDED CORN BILL, (No. 2).—
The Earl of Ripon,in moving the second reading of Bonded Corn Bill said, that its object was,—
" To enable the importer or proprietor of any foreign wheat secured in any bonded warehouse to take the same out of such warehouse upon his having previously deposited in lieu thereof, with the privity of the proper officers of the Customs, either in such warehouse, or some other warehouse in which foreign corn might be lawfully secured under bond, an equivalent quantity of fine wheat flour, or flour and biscuit, or biscuit only—there to be kept and secured in lieu of such wheat, subject to the same rules, regulations, restrictions, penalties, and forfeitures as such wheat, or any foreign flour or biscuit imported and secured in bonded warehouses under the laws in force, would be subject to."
The flour was not to be taken out of bond except on payment of the duty to which
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foreign flour would, at such time, be subject, except for purposes of exportation. The same rule would apply to the biscuit. This would greatly tend to facilitate trade with those countries which depended on foreign states for a supply of biscuit and flour, and would not be liable to fraudulent transactions.
Lord Beaumontfelt himself under the necessity of opposing this bill. He did so, not from any factious motive, but because he believed it would open the door to numerous evasions of the Corn-laws to the prejudice of the home grower. Suppose, for instance, a farmer bad 1,000 quarters to sell, at the market price, say 60 s., and the miller or speculator were to purchase one half. Thus far the farmer would not lose; but the miller or speculator could grind that corn, put it into bond, and take out an equivalent quantity of foreign corn, which he would be enabled to bring into the corn market, in order to oppose the farmer in his sale of the remaining 500 quarters. And as the speculator would be enabled to sell at a lower price than 60 s., them farmer would be compelled to come down to the minimum price at which, after such a transaction, the speculator could sell in order to leave himself a profit. This was a gross evasion of the Corn-law. That law was working well at present, but the bill would completely overthrow its principle.
The Earl of Riponthought the objections of the noble Lord more ingenious than practical. Cases quite opposite to those which he put might arise, and thus one inconvenience would balance another. From the evidence which had been taken, it was quite clear there was no fear of illicit importation in so bulky an article as corn. The noble Lord seemed to forget that vessels could now provision themselves at Hamburgh, the United States, and elsewhere, which, by the operation of this bill, would be enabled to lay in their stock as cheaply at home. It appeared to him, that the bill would remedy a great inconvenience, and injure no one.
Lord Monteagleagreed with the noble Lord that this bill was founded on quite an opposite principle to that of the present Corn-law, and, in his opinion, on a better one. The greatest advantage, however, which he expected, would be derived from it, was steadiness of intercourse with other countries.
Bill read a second time.

MINES AND COLLIERIES.
Lord Redesdalemoved the third reading of the Mines and Collieries Bill.
The Marquess of Londonderryopposed the third reading. The bill had, it was true, been much altered and defaced; it was but a blank sheet to what it was when it came up to them, but still it was hurried through in haste, and founded upon misrepresentation, and it would be far better to delay the matter altogether till next Session, and then examine evidence for themselves. To show the haste with which it was framed, the pet clause of his noble Friend, the President of the Council, enabling a Government inspector to inspect collieries and mines at all times, was absolutely inoperative. The inspector might come, but there was nothing to compel the coal-owner to put him down the pit, or to carry on the work of the pit whilst he was> there. As a coal-owner, he should say to any inspector,
"You may go down the pit how you can, and when you are down, you may remain there."
He meant to say, there was nothing to compel the coal-owner to give any facilities, and if the bill passed in its present shape, he, for one, should not afford any. The alarm that had been created, arose from misrepresentation. The report of the commissioners was filled with cases selected from the worst and most unfavourable mines, and though the favourable mines infinitely exceeded them in number, an impression unfavourable to the whole was thus excited in the public mind. For instance, the chief report consisted of 269 pages—of which there were given to coal mines, 189 pages; iron, 5; tin, copper, lead, zinc, 52; general observations, 23; total, 269. Thus, more than two thirds of the whole report had been lavished on the coal question, which formed but one-sixth of the number of subjects to be enquired into. The number of pages in the chief report devoted to each district was as follows: — Durham and Northumberland, 21 pages; Stafford, 6½; Salop, 3; Warwick, 1½ Leicester, 2; Derby, 11½ Gloucester, 7; Somerset, 2; Cumberland, 5½; Ireland, 1½; Lancashire and Cheshire, 20; York (West Riding), 31½; Wales, 18; Scotland, 27; making 159, and general subjects, 110; the total being 269. Thus, out of 159 pages devoted to specific districts, 96½ are given to bad ones, the balance (62½) being placed to the good and other districts, 21 only being appropriated
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to Durham and Northumberland; thereby swamping the unobjectionable mines on the plea of purifying the faulty ones. The report had also eighteen pages of woodcuts, exhibiting the different operations in mines in reference to the following districts:—Lancashire and Cheshire, 4; West Riding of York, 4; Gloucester, 1; Wales, 4; Scotland, 5; total, 18. All relating to the faulty districts; not one, as a set-off, being given for the good ones—those of greater magnitude than the bad ones in question. Thus the dark, the repulsive, picture of some is made to apply to all. So much for fair play; and these things, too, in the teeth of the following passage in the chief report, page 259:—
"That the bad mines are not happily numerous, nor of great extent."
Lord Redesdalesaid, as the noble Lord who had charge of the bill was content with the clause, he should not seek to amend it. He did not think the noble Marquess would be willing to brave the inference which would be drawn from throwing any difficulties in the way of inspection.
Lord Campbellagreed with the noble Marquess in his construction of the clause, and as he bad given fair notice of his intention to prove refractory, it would be well for the noble Lord, to re-consider his determination. As he thought the bill a good one, he should regret if it were left defective in this respect. He should, therefore, suggest the insertion of some words which would require the owners of mines and collieries, or their agents, to furnish, at all reasonable times, the means necessary to enable the inspectors to visit and inspect the different mines and collieries.
The Marquess of Londonderrysaid, that this inspection would, in many instances, arrest the working of the collieries, and therefore he hoped that the Government would provide some compensation for any injury which might be sustained in that; respect. He had preferred pointing out this defect to telling the coal-owners of the north, and of Scotland, which he might fairly have done, that the bill was inoperative, as far as regarded the right of inspection. The supporters of the measure ought, therefore, give him credit for some generosity in lending his aid towards its amendment. The whole measure was an evidence of party and clumsy legislation.
Lord Wharncliffesaid, his noble Friend had described the clause as his pet clause.

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He did not see how that could be, as he was not the father of the measure. He would adopt the suggestion of the noble and learned Lord opposite, and move, that these words be added to the end of the clause—
" The owners and occupiers of such mines and collieries, or their agents, are hereby required to furnish the means necessary for such person or persons so appointed to visit and inspect such mines, collieries, buildings, works, &c."
Lord Redesdalehad no objection to these words, as he thought they would render the clause more perfect.
Amendment agreed to.
Bill read a third time and passed.
Adjourned.