Lords Sitting of 25 May 1841

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a first time:—Ecclesiastical and Spiritual Corporations; Ecclesiastical Benefices; Farming Leases.
Petitions presented. By Lord Redesdale, the Earl of Winchilsea, and the Duke of Wellington, from places in Suffolk, Walmer, and from places in Hampshire, against Alteration of the Corn-laws.— By the Earl of Rosebery, from Linlithgow, and Stirling, for the Government measure for the Alteration of the Import Duties; and from the Members of the Scotch Church, Lancaster, against Lay Patronage (Scotland).

CORN-LAWS — EXPLANATION.
The Earl of Radnorsaid, that, seeing the noble Earl (the Earl of Ripon) opposite in his place, he wished to draw the attention of their Lordships to the paper respecting the official and declared value of the exports from which the noble Lord had last week quoted, for the purpose of showing that from 1830 to the present time, both the official and the declared value of the exports had gradually risen, and he had, indeed, slated, that during one year there had been a falling off, but that he had said was a matter that frequently occurred, but the noble Earl had omitted to draw their Lordships' attention to the last sum in the paper, and the impression left upon the House was, that the exports had been gradually increasing. Indeed, upon that impression the noble Earl had founded his argument, when he asked how could the manufacturers be in so distressed a state as they were represented to be. If the noble Earl had quoted the last sum, it would have appeared, that there was last year a considerable defalcation in the value of the exports. The noble Earl had quoted the official value of the last year, which showed an increase, but he had omitted to quote the declared value, which showed a considerable defalcation. The noble Lord had referred to the great falling off in the declared value, and had said, that in former years it amounted to

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nearly eleven millions, and appealed to him (the Earl of Radnor) that so large a falling off was one which required something more in the way of explanation than the mere observation that such things were of common occurrence in commercial transactions. The noble Earl had stated, that the official value was nothing more than a declaration of the quantity of the article manufactured, while the declared value approximated to its real value; and if any noble Lord had looked at the returns, he would find a statement of the difference between the official and declared value, which would explain the matter. In the course of the last twelve years, the official value had gradually risen from fifty-six to one hundred and two millions, and, on the other hand, the real value had increased from thirty-five to only fifty-one millions. The necessary consequence of that was, that the real value of the article had been continually diminishing, because if it were otherwise, it would have gone on increasing in the same ratio as the official value. That was to be attributed to the pressure of the dear corn years; so that the manufacturer had not only to contend with the high price of corn, but in the falling off in the price of his own manufactures. He had received a letter from a gentleman in the country a day or two since, who stated, that in Manchester, Birmingham, and the other manufacturing districts, the state of distress was such, that pen could not write, tongue could not tell, nor the heart conceive it. Being on his legs, he could not help alluding to something that had occurred in the course of the debate last night. A noble Lord stated, that a great country, densely populated, should provide food for its own inhabitants. He would ask the noble Lord to name any great country which either in ancient or modern times had ever pretended to grow corn enough for the consumption of its own people. The republics of Greece he believed did not. Crete and Sicily were the granaries of Greece. Rome certainly did not. Sicily and Egypt were the granaries of Rome. This country was also an example of the same fact. The noble Lord had, the other evening, talked of our ancient corn-laws, and had quoted the laws against regrating and engrossing. Now the object of those laws was to do that which it was the duty of all Governments to do—to take care that the people should not be
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starved. Parliament, during the last 150 years, had certainly endeavoured to make the country grow sufficient corn for its own consumption. That Parliament had been composed of landowners. It had been said they did not legislate for their own interests, but it did so happen that the sole object of their legislation had been to endeavour to force the country to grow corn sufficient for the consumption of the people. During the first half of the last century they had so far succeeded as to make this an exporting country, but during the last eighty years the attempt had failed; 1760 was the climax; from that time the export of corn gradually diminished until 1770, since which time this had been an importing country. Now, he should like to know whether the power and wealth of the country had been greatest when it was an importing or an exporting country? Undoubtedly since it had been an importing country. Every ten years since 1760 the importation of corn bad gone on gradually increasing, with but one exception, under the act of 1815, but under the present law importation had greatly increased. Had our power diminished in consequence? Was it not notorious that an exporting country was always a poor country? Look at Ireland; that was an exporting country. The exports of corn from Ireland had recently diminished, and the prosperity of Ireland was increasing. The noble Lord opposite (Lord Ashburton) was a high authority, and deservedly so, and he recollected what a different view the noble Lord took of this question in 1815. The noble Lord then foretold with accuracy what the state of the country would be at the present time. The noble Lord said, that if they attempted by legislation to cut down the population to the amount of food that the country could produce, it would be like shortening the man for the bed, instead of lengthening the bed for the man. But that noble Lord seemed now to think that this country could grow sufficient food for its own consumption. All he could say was that they had been trying the experiment for eighty years, and had always failed. He heard a great deal of talk about artificial manure rendering the land sufficiently productive to raise food for the inhabitants; he heard of manure being brought from China, and a short time since he heard of two ship loads of birds dung coming from the western coast of South America.

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Now, he must say, that if they could only raise sufficient food by such means as these, he entertained very little hope of their doing so. There was no instance in ancient or modern history, with the exception of Israel, and exceptio probat regulam, of a great country growing sufficient food for its own consumption. The noble Lord had made a statement with regard to the effect of the price of corn upon wages, and he had quoted a passage from Adam Smith. Now, he found, upon reference, that the effect of that passage was the very reverse of what had been stated.
Lord Ashburtonsaid, the passage he had quoted, was from a pamphlet written by Lord J. Russell.
The Earl of Radnorbegged the noble Lord's pardon.
Lord Lyndhurstsaid, it was irregular to refer to debates of a former evening.
Lord Wharncliffesaid, it was quite irregular to refer to speeches of a former night. The noble Earl had gone beyond all reason. He had gone last night through every speech made by his noble Friend during the last twenty years, and now he was going through those of the last four nights.
The Marquess of Lansdownesaid, that as a general rule, it was not usual to allude to speeches made on a former night, but that rule was systematically violated every day, and the speech of the noble Lord who had just sat down, in alluding to speeches made last night, was in itself a violation of the rule.
Lord Wharncliffesaid, that he had never seen the violation of the rule carried to such excess as it had been lately.
The Earl of Radnorwould not press the matter. He must say he had heard from the other side of the House rules laid down for the conduct of that (the Ministerial) side of the House which rules had not been followed by the other side. A few nights ago, he was told, that it was against the rules to allude to papers without giving notice. [The Duke of Wellington: No, no!] He begged the noble Duke's pardon. The noble Earl behind him (the Earl of Wicklow) had said so, and the very next night the noble Earl committed the very breach of the rule to which he referred. As to rules of order, he very seldom saw any order in that House. A passage had been quoted, on
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a former evening, from a pamphlet of Lord John Russell's, referring to Adam Smith; and the object of quoting the passage, was to show how much they ought to distrust political economists. Now, this appeared to him rather extraordinary, as the noble Lord who quoted the passage, did a few years ago compliment the Government upon their having established a professorship of political economy. The noble Lord had now turned over a new leaf, and ridiculed everything connected with political economy. With reference to wages, he would only add, that upon referring to the report of the commission appointed to inquire into the condition of the handloom weavers, he found it there stated, that although wages were occasionally affected by the price of corn, yet they did not fluctuate with the fluctuation in the price of corn, and a high price of corn was not accompanied by any sensible rise in the price of labour.
The Earl of Riponsaid, that the noble Earl had forgotten or had misunderstood the whole purport of his argument. The noble Earl must have forgotten it, because the noble Earl supposed, that he had denied the existence of distress in the manufacturing districts, and because the noble Earl assumed, that he had omitted all reference to the declared value of our manufacturing exports of last year. He had never denied the existence of distress. He had understood it to have been stated, that there existed very great distress, and that that was attributed by those who complained of it, to the operation of the Corn-laws. It had been stated with great fairness and candour by a noble Earl opposite (Earl Fitzwilliam), that it would be most unreasonable and unphilosophical to ascribe any general state of distress to any one single cause, and that in considering that state of distress, it would be necessary to consider all the facts belonging to it. Now, the only inference he drew when he showed that there had been no such diminution of the export trade as was alleged, was not to prove, that no distress existed, but that there was a primâ facie case of doubt with respect to the extent of that distress, so as to make any reasonable and prudent man pause before he came to a positive conclusion that the whole of the distress was to be charged upon the operation of the Corn-laws. The noble Earl had charged him with stating, that the declared and the official value of

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our exports had increased in the same proportion. He had said nothing of the sort; it would be ridiculous in him to have said so; indeed, be had specifically mentioned, that the declared value was less than the official value. Now, with respect to the effect of the Corn-laws upon manufactures, it should be recollected, that there were many causes—such as the difference in price of the raw material, the substitution of the labour of women and children for that of adults, and the confused state of the currency—all of which might operate materially upon the condition of our manufactures, and the only inference he drew was, that it behoved noble Lords, who wished to introduce an enormous change, the consequences of which they could not foresee, to cautiously consider the operation of all those different causes, with respect to the value and extent of our manufactures, before they came down and invited the Legislature to produce a confusion in any particular branch of industry, the effect of which, it was impossible to foresee. The more he considered the question of corn-laws, the more be saw its infinite difficulty. When he proposed a law in 1815, he stated, that in his humble opinion, all the corn-laws were evils in themselves, that he had to make, a choice of difficulties, and that the balance of difficulty lay on the side of no protection; and he therefore, with a good conscience, proposed the adoption of that measure; and although he had been accused often with having introduced a law for the purpose of fixing the price of wheat at 80 s., on the one hand, grinding down the poor man, and, on the other, deceiving the farmer, he maintained that the tendency of that law had been to make the price of 80 s. a maximum, and not the minimum, price. And what had been the effect of that law? He found that upon an average of seven years, including the years 1816 and 1817, when we had the worst harvests that were ever known, the price was 69 s. 11 d. In 1822 the law was altered, and he concurred in the alteration, and 70 s. was substituted for 80 s. What was then the average price during the succeeding seven years? It was 58 s. to 90 s., and during the. ensuing eleven years the price was 57 s. 7d. This would show that his anticipations had been realised. He would only add, if he might introduce a subject so insignificant as anything that related to himself, that ever since the law of 1815
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came into operation, he had acted, as far as regarded the land with which he was connected, upon the principle that the price of wheat could never reach 80 s.
Lord Ashburtondid not rise to go through his political life during the last twenty-six years, but he was taunted with having varied in his sentiments upon this question. He begged to say. that he recollected when the noble Earl opposite (Earl Fitzwilliam) was a most strenuous advocate for protection, and when he (Lord Ashburton) was in a minority of thirty-seven, in a very full House, in resisting an inordinate protection, and in opposition to the noble Earl. The opinions of the noble Viscount at the head of her Majesty's Government seemed also in the course of a very few weeks to have undergone a very great change. There was nothing in the statements of the noble Lord opposite to show that the existing law had operated disadvantageously. On the contrary, the distress in the manufacturing districts had been clearly shown to have arisen from other causes distinct from the corn-laws. With respect to the difference in the prices obtained for manufacturing produce at different times, he might refer, not to a speech delivered elsewhere, but to what would have been a speech, but which the House of Commons refused to hear—he meant a publication of Mr. Fielden's which was worthy of their Lordships' attention, as containing some very striking statements by a practical man. Mr. Fielden said, that the consumption, of cotton in 1815, was 80,000,000lbs., and in 1820 it had risen to 120,000,000lbs., showing a great advance and increase in manufactures, but at the latter period the labourer was receiving from 25 to 51 per cent, more for the manufactured article than in 1815. In 1830 he was receiving 65 per cent, less. The consumption of cotton, however, had increased to 247,000,000lbs. In 1835 it was 318,000,000lbs., but the manufacturing operator was receiving 70 per cent less in proportion to the article than in 1815. In 1840, the quantity of cotton worked up was 451,000,000lbs., but the labourer's remuneration was 75 per cent, proportionably less than in 1815. He spoke of the operatives. And if arguments drawn from statements like this proved anything, they proved that manufacturing prosperity led to the impoverishment of the operatives. The mere increase of manufactures did not tend to the well-

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being of the operatives. If they were living in the times when the spindle was in every cottage there might appear a more general diffusion of prosperity through the working classes than was now perceived under the influence of large capitals, employing the people in factories. But he did not say this with a view of re-constructing or requiring any interference with the present state of things, which was quite out of the question, and would be perfectly absurd, but he made the observation in reference to the remarks which had fallen from noble Lords opposite. It was not true, as a noble Lord had intimated, that he (Lord Ashburton) advocated the absolute independence of this country with regard to its supplies. He only desired to pursue the principle as far as was reasonable and practicable, by giving fair encouragement to the home grower, not for his own benefit, but for the benefit of the mass of the community; and the practical effect had been good. There had not been in this country within the memory of any man living a period of what might be called very severe pressure with respect to the price of food. Compared with other nations England had been remarkably free from those seasons of extraordinary pressure which were inseparable from the condition of men. The authority of an Oxford Professor of Political Economy had been referred to, but with the greatest respect for such authority, he did not think it ought to have much practical weight. Political economy was a science which was far from being worked out. Some most important questions, such as those respecting currency, were in the greatest doubt; and while it was undoubtedly deserving of cultivation, and ought to be followed so long as any intellectual pursuits were cherished, its theories ought to be received by statesmen with the greatest caution. The study was very well at Oxford, but he did not wish to see the professor brought to Downing-street to govern us. He (Lord Ashburton) maintained the same principle on the subject of corn-laws which he did some time ago, when at a period of agricultural distress some agriculturists demanded the abolition of the warehousing system. He said, then, as he said now, that the taws of the country were not to be tumbled about on every occasion of temporary distress.
The Marquess of Lansdownesaid, that the amount of manufactures exported was
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far from being the only test of prosperity. It was an element to be considered, but by no means the most important. It was the nature of manufacturing capital that two-thirds consisted of machinery, and consequently of fixed capital which could not suddenly be withdrawn, however disadvantageous might be the trade in which it was embarked. An unfavourable turn in manufactures was first made palpable by a diminution in the value of mills, but long after this diminution of value appeared, the mills would continue to be worked, manufactures to be produced, and large exports to take place. Therefore, this appearance of business might be very fallacious, and it was necessary to take into account many other circumstances before coming to the conclusion that manufactures were in a flourishing condition. Another circumstance to be considered was the exportation of machinery to other parts of the world. It was a fact not to be overlooked or disregarded by any party, manufacturers or landowners, that during the last eight years the amount of machinery exported had constantly and systematically increased. During the last two or three years machinery had been exported to the value of 2,100,000 l.; and if this export had not taken place the makers of this machinery would have exported themselves, and so have rendered foreign rivalry still more powerful and dangerous. With respect to the existing Corn-law, it was no reproach to those who had introduced it, to say that it had failed to produce the effect expected from it. Its object had been repeatedly stated to be to prevent fluctuations, but it could be shown that the price of grain had varied under its influence between 30 and 40 per cent., and during some years 40 to 50 per cent., a greater fluctuation than existed in any country which was without a system of Corn-laws. The effects of the scale of averages had been of the worst character. It had put what belonged to the province of the Legislature in the hands of other parties, and those parties the most interested and the least fit to be intrusted with the administration of the law, of which, contrary to the intention of Parliament they had continued to possess themselves. His noble Friend, the noble Earl opposite, could not deny that the last two years had given the mast palpable evidence of the operation of the sliding scale. A fixed

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duty had been called a delusion, but there never was a greater delusion than that of supposing that the sliding scale gave a steady protection to the agriculture of the country. He was aware, and he only stated what he knew could be proved, that parties in different parts of the country had agreed to cram the market with a particular kind of corn, on three or four market days preceding the striking of the averages. And this was done for the purpose of controlling and obstructing the act of the Legislature, The consequence was, that the averages suddenly rose to a price at which foreign corn could come in at a very low duty; and then one or two millions of quarters; of corn were suddenly thrown in. The existing law was the lever with which these parties effected this operation, by which at a sacrifice of 30.000 l. or 40.000 l. they made 300,000 l. or 400.000 l., at the expense of the revenue. What was the consequence? This corn did not come in the regular course of trade, which would enable merchants, millers, and farmers to calculate upon it; but it was suddenly thrown in, and, consequently there was a necessity for its being paid for in money; and then, in addition to the evil to the farmer, if there was any evil to the farmer, the whole community was disturbed by a derangement of the currency, the export of the precious metals, and the disorder of the paper currency of the country. The introduction of foreign corn, which in the regular course of trade would have been perfectly innoxious, produced all these evils because it was sudden and unexpected. This had occurred in the autumn of 1839, and it was repeated in the autumn of 1840. Gentlemen who were known to be friends of the present Corn-Jaws, had come to the Board of Trade to ask to be saved from the operation of the law. The Board of Trade was bound to enforce the law, whatever their opinion might be of its merits, and they were enabled to show those parties that they could not stir in the business. Such an enormous influx of foreign corn, with the consequent influence on the currency, was a greater revolution—and a revolution affecting property more extensively than any that could be imagined from a change in the law. He thought the case was completely made out against the law. The fact he had referred to, made a case which the Government was bound to look into
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with reference to the interests of the whole community. He said the interests of the whole community, because he would never consent to discuss the question with reference to the interest of this or that class, but with reference to all classes who had a common interest in the question. Last night the noble Lord opposite thought to make out a triumphant case of the superiority of the condition of the people of this country over that of the people of France, among other nations, by quoting from M. Cunin Gridaine, a statement how lean the French oxen were in comparison with the English oxen, the one, as he said, not being half so big as the other; but had it never occurred to the noble Lord, that these very lean oxen were the creatures of protection? That these very lean oxen were precisely the result of the protection which the French legislature had thought proper to extend to French graziers, the French graziers insisted upon it that all France must inevitably starve if it depended upon any other country for its supply of oxen? It was admitted that French oxen were, as the noble Lord said, lean, but the French graziers said, "Give us time, and we'll let you have such fine fat oxen some time or other, if you won't let any body else supply you but French graziers." Besides it would never do to allow fat German oxen to be admitted into France, lest, peradventure, the principles of some of the German illuminati might get in with them. From the leanness of French oxen might an illustration be drawn as to the effect of similar protection upon our agricultural produce. It was said, that it was impossible for a nation to get on without it extended protection to its various interests; yet, in Switzerland, where it had not been thought necessary to have a system of protection, every branch of industry was greatly improving, both in agriculture and manufactures, though there was no country in Europe which contained a larger proportion of poor land than there was in Switzerland. He did not mean that, while other interests were protected, agriculture should be deprived of protection, but he was fully persuaded, that not only the general prosperity of the country, but that of agriculture itself, would be promoted by the change now proposed. He himself was a considerable landowner; he depended, indeed, entirely on land, and the land he possessed was not free from

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those incumbrances which it had been urged so materially aggravated the disadvantages under which the agricultural interest laboured; but, he would repeat, he was fully convinced, that not only he himself would not suffer, but rather benefit by the change, but he was convinced also, that the class to which he belonged would not suffer, but rather benefit by the change as a body. He was clearly of opinion, that that class would find its interests promoted by a change which tended to increase the commercial intercourse of this country with the rest of the world. Such a change as this could not but increase the prosperity of the class to which he belonged, a class which he ever hoped to see forming a prominent and distinguished class in the community. It was perfectly obvious that some alteration was required; he had seen in his own experience the failure of no fewer than three experiments founded on the principle which it was now proposed to abandon in favour of a moderate fixed duty.
The Duke of Wellingtonagreed with the noble Marquess that it would be most desirable to confine the discussion of this subject to the effect it would be likely to produce on the general prosperity of the country, and to avoid those irritating and exciting topics which were brought forward every night on the presentation of petitions, apparently merely for the purpose of still further exciting that state of hostility which it appeared to be the intention to excite on that subject throughout the country, and he hoped the noble Marquess would recollect the sentiments he had uttered that night, and discuss the subject not as it related to one class only, but to the whole country. With regard to the frauds in the averages, he hoped the noble Marquess would take care to provide some legislative remedy for those evils; whether the law remained as it was, or whether a fixed duty was to be substituted for it; for he understood that the fixed duty was to depend in some degree on the averages—that there was to be a sort of a sliding scale; and he hoped the noble Lord would take care not to leave a door open to the same frauds in his system as he had complained of in the present one. He had been in office under the former system, and he could assure the noble Lord, that there had been no want of frauds under that. Enormous fortunes had been made under
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that system, and great frauds had been committed, and he was afraid that frauds would be practised under every system; but he had never heard of any frauds under the existing system except those mentioned by the noble Marquess. One argument against the present system was, the great fluctuation in price which it occasioned; but he could prove, that the fluctuations in price which it occasioned were not so great as in many parts of the world. The fluctuations had been greater in Holland than in this country, and in that country there was no duty. He held in his hand a return of the fluctuations in the price of corn from 1829 to 1838 in different places in Europe. In England the fluctuation had been 31 s.; at Odessa and Memel 55 s.; at Dantzic 54 s.; at Amsterdam 48 s.; and at Rotterdam 26 s. Now the difference of price between Amsterdam and Rotterdam could be accounted for by the fact that Amsterdam was situated in a thickly-populated district, where there was a great demand, and Rotterdam is a district not so densely populated, Now in this country there was a greater demand for grain than in any other part of the world; the people would have the best grain for food, and considering the consumption of the country, he was prepared to contend that the fluctuation was not so great as it was in other countries, and that ground for alteration failed entirely. He thought the subject ought to be brought on for general discussion either in a committee of the whole House or on the second Reading of a bill, and he trusted the noble Marquess would prevail upon his noble Friends to abstain from those exciting topics, in which they were apt to indulge on the presentation of petitions. Allusion had been made to what had fallen from his noble Friend, relative to the increase in the imports on cotton. It had been said but small profits were made upon the manufacture of this immense quantity of produce, but that appeared to him to have no connection with the question of the Corn-laws. The fact was, the improvements in the machinery, and the introduction of steam had enabled the manufacturers to manufacture with very little cost. They did not make the profit now they did fifty years ago; but they still made profits, although those were diminished by competition—not by competition with the foreigner, but by competi-

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tion at home. Other manufacturers, who were aware that profits were to be made, although not so large as formerly, entered the field, built new manufactories, established machinery, and thus introduced fresh competition. He believed that the lower class of manufacturers were suffering distress, and that their condition was well worthy the attention of Parliament. The noble Lord had alluded to Birmingham; now from the official returns, which showed an increase in the exports of hardware, he should consider that Birmingham, Sheffield, and other places interested in that trade were in a state of prosperity, and looking to the declared as well as the official value of exports generally, he was of opinion that the manufacturers had not yet reached such a state of depression as had been attempted to be represented.
Earl Fitzwilliamconsidered that the most valuable part of the very valuable speech of the noble Duke was that in which he recommended that the House should seriously consider the subject of the Corn-laws, either in Committee or otherwise. Now he (Earl Fitzwilliam) had three times endeavoured to induce their Lordships to adopt such a course, but without effect. With respect to the lean oxen in France, it should be recollected that not only did the protection of the lean ox prevent the introduction of the fat ox into France, but it also prevented the introduction of French manufactures into Germany; and that was his great objection to the Corn-laws, and to all prohibitory laws, that they interrupted the commerce between different countries. With regard to the table quoted by the noble Duke it was a table of medium prices, not of averages, for it was made out by the Consuls without any regard whatever to quantity. He thought the fixed duty proposed by the Government would give to the English agriculturist that to which he was fairly entitled, a preference over the foreigner in the English market, and would more than compensate him for all those burdens in the shape of local taxation, which were represented as pressing so heavily on the land, although he for one did not think the landowner was more burdened than any of the other classes. He believed that the sliding scale, as at present constituted, offered a very great temptation to fraud. The noble Earl concluded by presenting upwards of one hundred
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petitions in favour of an alteration in the Corn-laws.
Petitions laid on the Table.
Adjourned.