EAST-INDIA RUM.

HL Deb 23 March 1841 vol 57 cc512-22

The Marquess of Lansdowne

having moved the Order of the Day for the second reading of the East-India Rum bill, proceeded to observe, that as this was a measure of considerable importance, it would naturally be expected that he should state to their Lordships, and to those who were interested in the subject, the grounds upon which this bill was introduced. The question, however, lay within a very narrow compass. Its object was to assimilate the duties on East-India rum imported into this kingdom from British possessions in India, into which the importation of sugar was prohibited, to the duties on West-India rum, as had already been done with respect to sugar the growth of the East Indies. Early in the last Session of Parliament he had had the honour to present to their Lordships a petition from the most important body in this country—the East-India Company—who considered themselves, and justly considered themselves, as the representatives of the cultivators of India. He was not at that time authorized to hold out any immediate hope to those petitioners that the policy which they recommended could be carried into effect; but he had stated that he himself, and others with whom he had the honour of acting, felt the justice and propriety of acceding to the suggestions contained in that petition at as early a period as they possibly could, consistently with their public duty, by proposing to Parliament a measure that would be beneficial to the cultivation of India. The petition to which he had alluded was afterwards, on the motion of a noble Baron (Lord Ellenborough), referred to a select committee, and a similar committee was appointed by the House of Commons. Before both these committees a great deal of important evidence was given with respect to Indian commerce and to Indian produce. It was felt by many that the most obvious measure of relief that could be given for the encouragement of Indian produce would be to reduce the duty on the importation of East-India sugar, and to make a corresponding reduction with reference to the duty on East-India rum. He particularly stated this, because the opinion of their Lordships' committee had been quoted against the present measure. The committee did not express a decided opinion on the subject. They only stated that they were not prepared, at that moment to recommend such an alteration of the duties on rum. He was not the author of the words thus inserted in that report; but undoubtedly he did not oppose those words, because the Government with which he was acting was not prepared at the moment, to submit to their Lordships such a measure as would meet the suggestions of the petitioners; and the noble Baron opposite who drew up the report with great ability, and whose views on the subject were of the most liberal and enlightened nature, would he knew, never have proposed their insertion in the view of creating any bar to the introduction at any future period of such a measure by Government on its own responsibility. His own opinion was the same at that time as it was at the present—namely, that it would be just and proper to grant the relief prayed for, and to equalize the duties on East and West-India ram. He should now advert to one of the chief objections felt by the committee of the House of Lords with reference to this reduction—namely, lest it should lead to the introduction of any other spirit distilled from rice, or from any other produce not intended to be admitted. It was feared that such spirit, not the produce of the sugar cane, might be introduced under the cover of this law. There was, however, no danger of any such result; the most effectual means were adopted, under the bill, to carry the intentions of the Legislature, and those intentions only, into effect. Under the regulations provided by this measure, the importation would be confined strictly to rum manufactured frrm the sugar cane, or from the date or date-tree. It had been shown by the evidence, that since 1836, when his noble Friend, then Chancellor of the Exchequer had introduced an equalization of the sugar of the East and West Indies—from 1136 to 1840 the importation of sugar had increased from 50,000cwt. to upwards of 400,000cwt. The price of sugar had increased since that period to an alarming extent, and the consumption had proportionately diminished. But the price would have been more alarming and the consumption would have even still further diminished had not such an equalization taken place. But the concurrent testimony of a host of witnesses proved that the introduction would have gone still further, had it not been impossible to propose equal duties on East and West-India rum. So much with regard to the sugar produced by the cane. The bill included also the sugar produced from the date tree, perhaps of all the one most extensively useful in all application to the purposes of man of all vegetables in the world, and of its many uses this was one of the most valuable. The measure, then, applied to the sugar which was formed out of the pulp of the date. He could not state the exact amount of sugar produced from the cane and the date; but, though the much greater part was produced from the former, a great quantity was also produced from the latter. The rum from both these kinds of sugar was to be introduced on the payment of equal duties to those levied on rum made from the West-India sugar, but by proper precautions, such as an order being sent before admission, a certificate of origin, &c., the introduction of spirits from rice would, he thought, be effectually prevented. He had now briefly stated what the bill contained. He would not dwell long on the policy of the measure. It was an act of justice, an act of fairness, an act of liberality, towards the natives of India, from whom it must be recollected, in all disquisitions of this nature, that we have taken in the course of our commercial intercourse with them a valuable part of their produce, of their industry, and of their means of livelihood, and that we have caused the depopulation of their country by the extinction of their manufactures; and that, while all this has been going on, we have been at the same time refusing admission to their sugar, and other produce, on the terms which we have granted to other colonies, which stand in exactly the same relation to ourselves. There must always remain a difference in favour of the West Indies. Nature had caused that difference by the position and the capabilities of those islands, but such a difference we ought to lessen as much as possible, and we now by the bill diminish by the difference which now exists, granting an equality to the produce of those towards whom we entertain the same feelings, and to whom we are bound by an identity of interest. The noble Marquess concluded by moving the second reading of the bill.

Lord Ashburton

said that he fully felt the force of the arguments which had been put forward by his noble Friend. Every consideration, both of prudence and of justice, was favourable to the bill of which his noble Friend had just proposed the second reading. He doubted, however, whether the recent events which had taken place, the state of labour, and the condition of the colonies, had not been sufficient to induce the postponement of what every one was aware was a measure of justice. There was also another point on which he felt some slight doubt, but that doubt perhaps arose from his own ignorance on the subject. He did not know whether the admission of spirit made from the date-sugar might not be attended with some difficulties. There had been no distinction drawn between the different kinds of spirits, and he thought that this might probably lead to considerable fraud on the revenue, but he took it for granted that the Government had carefully looked to this point. With these doubts, which he had plainly stated to their Lordships, he must confess that he was glad at the introduction of such a measure as the present. But, as this bill referred to the sugar-trade, he would take that opportunity of asking his noble Friend what were the intentions of her Majesty's Government as to the general state of the sugar-trade. He was desirous of knowing whether it was intended to let in sugar from foreign countries. It had been stated to him by many merchants of the first respectability and standing that no satisfactory assurance had been given on this point. In fact great apprehensions existed upon this subject arising chiefly from the belief that the present measure might in some way be connected with the Report on Import Duties which had emanated from a committee of the House of Commons that was appointed to inquire into that subject last Session. Of the Members who constituted that committee he did not wish to say anything: but it was well known that the committee sat very late in the Session; that many of its Members were great free-trade philosophers, and that the evidence was taken most partially, and chiefly from persons who were known to be violent partisans on the side of unrestricted commerce. Mr. Porter, Dr. Bowing, Mr. Hume (formerly of the office of the Board of Trade), and other advocates of free trade, were the principal persons examined; and the evidence given by them consisted of the most extravagant, most exaggerated and absurd statements, that any person having a reputation of professional and personal knowledge could possibly listen to. But what he chiefly complained of was that the Members of the committee had afterwards formed themselves into a society, and had circulated this report in the shape of a pamphlet throughout the country, and that by that means they had given these statements undue importance. The committee was altogether an ex parte one; got up for the purpose of hearing evidence on one side only, and that from persons who were already prepared for the purpose, and who after all were not very conversant with the subjects on which they were called upon to give their opinions. While this was the sort of testimony taken by the committee, they refused to hear evidence on the other side. Very important evidence was offered to be given, but the Gentlemen on the committee would not receive it. No questions tending to contradict the evidence given in favour of free-trade doctrines were put to any of the witnesses, nor was any testimony sought that went in the slightest degree to invalidate that description of evidence. Altogether the report of the Committee on Import Duties was, in his opinion, as unfair, extravagant, and absurd a report as ever was issued; and he knew of nothing that showed more of trick, of contrivance, and of design, than that which was practised in the getting up of that committee and the concocting of that report. To carry out the principles of that report would be to upset all the principles upon which the commercial wealth and greatness of the country were founded; and the very attempt would be the introduction of the wildest and most ruinous system that could possibly be devised.

The Marquess of Lansdowne

was sure that their Lordships would not expect him to take the present opportunity for entering into a discussion of the merits of the report of the committee of the House of Commons on import duties. That report embraced a great variety of topics, every one of which required long and full consideration. The committee was not one proposed by her Majesty's Government; although the Members of her Majesty's Government had felt it their duty to bestow considerable attention to the matters submitted to it. The committee certainly sat at a later period of the Session, and that circumstance might have made it very inconvenient for them to continue to receive evidence which might have been of a different nature from that which they had actually received. At the same time, the persons whose evidence they did hear were persons who had a right to be heard on such subjects, and more particularly persons who had been officers of the Government and connected with that department to which the nature of the investigation before the committee had immediate reference. The gentleman to whose evidence the noble Lord might be supposed to have alluded (Mr. J. D. Hume) was formerly connected with the Board of Trade; and he was one in whom every President of the Board of Trade, for the last twenty years, had placed the highest reliance. The examination of that gentleman was most natural, and his opinions might most justly be considered deserving of attention. The noble Lord had taken this opportunity of asking him (the Marquess of Lansdowne) whether any further measure connected with the importation of sugar would at any other time be brought forward by her Majesty's Government. All that he could say in, answer to that question was, that this bill was totally unconnected with any other measure whatever. It was a bill that had not grown out of the report of the committee of the House of Commons, but rested entirely upon its own peculiar grounds. The noble Lord must be perfectly aware that nothing could be more inconvenient than announcing financial intentions or discussing financial questions before Government felt it their duty to introduce specific measures for the consideration of Parliament. All he could say was, that whether any future regulation was to be made or not with reap ec to the introduction of sugar into this country, the present measure was wholly unconnected with that or any other measure besides what it professed to have immediately in view.

Lord Ashburton

was quite aware of the high talent and integrity of the gentleman whose name the noble Marquess had mentioned (Mr. J. D. Hume), and he had no intention of saying anything disparagingly of that individual. With regard to what the noble Marquess had thought proper to say in answer to the question which he had put respecting the intentions of her Majesty's Government, all he would observe was, that it was precisely such an answer as the committee in the India interest had received from Government, and that committee went away with the impression that further measures were intended to be introduced by her Majesty's Government on the subject of the sugar-trade.

Lord Monteagle

was quite sure the noble Lord who had just sat down must feel that the answer of his noble Friend, the noble Marquess near him, was the only one which he could consistently give, as it would be highly inconvenient to discuss subjects relative to finance till they were brought regularly before the House. He rejoiced that the attention of the House and the public had been drawn to the report on which the noble Lord opposite had commented. No doubt it was a very popular argument to say that if taxation is reduced, the revenue will thereby necessarily be increased, but people out of doors were very apt to take a one-sided view of the question, and to say give us a reduction, and take your chance of an increase of revenue. The extravagance of some of the suggestions that had been made before that committee were practical impediments to the progress of improvement. He would allude to one, being the great question on which his noble Friend had observed, the corn question. What was the evidence given by some of those gentlemen on the subject of the protective duties on corn and provisions? It was that the existence of those protective duties caused a charge upon the people of England equal to twice the whole amount levied by taxation for the treasury—namely, an annual amount of 100,000,000l., stated to be the result of those protective duties. He was not a friend to the existing system of the Corn-laws, but he thought that those exaggerated views would rather defeat than further the object of those who were opposed to those laws. On the one hand, if anything could tend to over excite those engaged in the repeal of the Corn-laws, it would be to tell them they had to contend for so great a sum as 100,600,000l. and, on the other hand, nothing would tend to strengthen the opposition to the repeal so much as telling the agricultural interest that they too had to contend for a prize equal to that sum. His noble Friend had also adverted to the question of the sugar duties. Upon that subject the extravagance had been equally great; for it had been said that this, the greatest consuming sugar country on the face of the earth, had, by financial regulations, so limited, and the comforts of the population so abridged, that the consumption of sugar was less than could be found in Austria or Russia. Nothing could be more extravagant or absurd than all these statements. He had stated these things in order that parties might cautiously weigh and consider the subject, because, in the event that these calculations were called on and not confirmed, Parliament would be obliged to have recourse to a property tax or some similar measure, in order to make good the enormous deficiency of the revenue which would occur. He believed that the principles laid down in the Report would be most injurious, if adopted to the extent, and on the principles set forth at the same time he was convinced that the principles of free trade, as they were termed, were those upon which this great commercial country could mainly rely for the extension of its trade. He should decidedly object to the recommendation in that Report being inconsiderately adopted.

Lord Ellenborough

only rose to express his satisfaction with the measure which had been brought forward by the noble Marquess. It had come sooner than he had expected, but not sooner than he had desired. He agreed with the noble Marquess that this measure rested entirely on its own merits. It was only a measure of justice to the East-Indies, while it was not one of injustice to the West-Indies. By diminishing the duties on rum the produce of India, it would, in his opinion, increase the production of sugar; while, at the same time, it would prevent the introduction of foreign grown sugar. He did not think the Government would be in a position to call upon Parliament to admit the sugar of Cuba and Brazil into this country till it was seen what the result of this measure would be, which was calculated he thought to lead to the introduction from India of a very large quantity of sugar. He wished, however, to call the attention of the noble Marquess to the bill itself, particularly to the 3rd clause, in consequence of certain evidence which had been given before the committee upstairs last year, and in consequence of what he considered an erroneous view taken by one of the witnesses with respect to the last act for the reduction of the duty on East-India sugar. The 3rd clause of this bill was framed in terms nearly similar to a provision of the act of the 1st and 2nd of Victoria, which permitted the introduction of sugar from India at a reduced rate of duty. By that act, it was provided. That if at anytime satisfactory proof shall have been laid before her Majesty in Council, that the importation of foreign sugar into any British possession within the limits of the East India Company's charter is prohibited, it shall be lawful for her Majesty, by and with the advice of her Privy Council, or by an order in Council, to allow the importation of sugar the growth of any British possession at the lower rate of duty specified in the Act of the 6th and 7th of William 4th, under the same restrictions and conditions as sugar the growth of the presidency of Fort William. Now, he was of opinion, that under that provision of the Act of Victoria, no discretion was left to the Privy Council, and that they were bound, on the required proof being given, to admit the sugar of any of the British possessions alluded to. The 3rd clause of this bill was similar to the provision contained in the Act of Victoria. It provided. That this act shall not come into operation until satisfactory proof shall have been laid before her Majesty in Council, that foreign rum and foreign rum-shrub have been prohibited to be imported into any of the British possessions within the limits of the East-India Company's charter, on the importation from which of rum or rum-shrub the duty of 9s. 4d. per gallon is hereby imposed, nor until the Governor-general in Council shall have passed an act containing such regulations for the prevention of frauds as in the opinion of such Governor-general in Council shall be calculated for that purpose. When therefore the proof required was given, and when an act was passed by the Governor-general in council for the prevention of frauds, he apprehended that it became the duty of the Privy Council to admit rum and rum-shrub to be introduced. For it was further provided by the 3rd clause, that. In the events of such prohibition and of the enactment of such regulations, it shall be lawful for her Majesty, by and with the advice of the Privy Council, to allow the importation of rum or rum-shrub, the produce of the possessions aforesaid, to be admitted to entry in the United Kingdom. Mr. Larpent, however, in his evidence as given before the committee of last year, seemed to be of opinion that it was competent for persons interested to come before the Privy Council even after the required proof had been given, and to show them that the regulations made were not sufficient, and to object to the introduction of the produce specified in the Act of Victoria. It was therefore highly important that this part of the bill should be distinctly expressed, so as to be generally understood, and that a provision should be introduced into the measure providing that on the passing of the required act by the Governor-general in Council, rum and rum-shrub should be at once admitted, and that then no person should be allowed to go before the Privy Council to object. There was one other point to which he wished to call attention. In the Act of 1st and 2nd Victoria there was a proviso which he considered essentially necessary, and which he wished to see introduced into the present bill. That act required that a certificate should be given by the collector or deputy-collector, and the proviso was that it should be lawful for the Governor-general to appoint any other person that he might consider qualified other than such collector or deputy-collector to grant such certificate. Now he (Lord Ellenborough) thought it necessary and desirable to introduce this proviso into the present measure. There might be a question whether any practical difficulty would arise elsewhere on the introduction of this proviso, but on that point, perhaps, the noble Lord would make inquiries. At all events, the insertion of the proviso went in furtherance of the objects and intentions of the framers of this bill. It had been adopted by them on a similar occasion, and he (Lord Ellen-borough) should hope that when this bill came into committee it would be thought expedient, there being no reason against it, to introduce it into this bill.

The Marquess of Lansdowne

had not the least hesitation in stating to the noble Baron that the interpretation which he should put upon the meaning of the clause alluded to, and relating to the power exercised by the Privy Council, was precisely that which the noble Baron had himself collected. He thought there was nothing in the act referred to that required correc- tion; but he was glad the noble Baron had called attention to the subject, there having been something like a misunderstanding upon it. With regard to the other point, this was the first time his attention had been called to it; but it seemed to him that it would be extremely convenient to introduce into this measure the proviso to which the noble Baron had alluded. He would, however, make inquiries into the subject, though it did not appear to him that there would be any inconvenience, or that it would be impracticable to introduce that proviso in that House.

Bill read a second time.

Adjourned.