Lords Sitting of 8 March 1841

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By the Earl of Fingall, from Leicester, for the Amendment of some of the Clauses of the Drainage Bill.—By the Marquess of Down-shire, from the Presbyterian Congregation of Omagh from the county Donegal, from the Congregation of New-toanrds, county Down, from the Presbytery of Coleraine, and from a Presbytery in the county of Cavan, against Church Patronage.—By Lord Redesdale, from a place in Northampton, against the Vaccination system.

THE UNITED STATES.—MR M'LEOD.
The Earl of Mountcashellwished to put a question to the noble Viscount opposite, respecting certain information which had just arrived from America, of great importance to this country and which had produced not only a great sensation in the city, but he believed had also had a material effect on the funds. He referred to the report made to the Congress of the United States, by the committee of foreign affairs, on the thirteenth February last, which, although it related principally to the affair of Mr. M'Leod, could not but have great influence in determining the other subjects of dispute between this
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country and the United States. He would be the last person to say one word likely to produce a greater division of opinion between the two countries than what now unfortunately existed, but he thought, when such a report as the one alluded to had appeared in the public prints as an official document of great importance, they were bound to ascertain at once whether it was so or not. He could not believe it to be genuine; he was inclined to think that it must be an invention. It was no uncommon thing for the public prints in foreign countries to insert documents for the purposes of stock-jobbing, and he thought that the report in question had been inserted in the American newspapers with some such view. He had also great doubts of its being genuine, from the high opinion which he had of the practical good sense of the inhabitants of the United States. It was impossible, he thought, that they could be so blind to their own interests as to bring forward a document of that kind. He thought it unlikely that such a report could be adopted by a majority in Congress without some individual moving an amendment.

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He was convinced that if the inhabitants of the United States considered their own interest—if they looked to the state of their own finances—if they would but recollect the three millions of negroes who would take part with England—if they recollected the great body of Indians whom they had driven from their lands, and who were ready at the first opportunity to take vengeance on them—, if they pondered well these things, he was sure they would see but little inducement to their entering; on a war with England. They ought also to take into account the loyal feelings of the people of Canada, who would certainly retaliate on the United States the injuries done to them, and revenge Mr. M'Leod should he be murdered. They ought also to consider the large body of regular troops which were now in the British North American possessions, and the large naval force which, now that the Eastern question was settled, could be brought to bear against them. If they considered these things, they would very soon find, even in their calculations of profit and loss, of which they were so fond, and by which they seemed in the present instance not to be guided, that they were more likely in such a contest to add to their loss, than to increase their profits. For these reasons he was of opinion that the document was not true, but as it had produced so strong an impression on the public mind, he thought it necessary and right to ask the noble Viscount at the head of her Majesty's Government, whether he had received any intelligence respecting the report, and whether he considered it an official document or not? If it turned out to be official, he should, at the proper period, feel it his duty to make some observations in regard to it, for a document more insulting o this nation had never been penned. He wished, therefore, to know from the noble Viscount whether any information had reached him on the subject?
Viscount Melbournewas unable to answer the question of the noble Lord, as no information had as yet been received from her Majesty's representative at Washington. He apprehended, however, that considering the form of the document, and the manner in which it had reached this country, there could be no doubt of its authenticity.
Subject at an end.

POOR LAWS (IRELAND).
The Earl of Glengallsaid, he was sorry so soon again to bring under the consideration of the House another motion respecting the appointment of the returning officer to the Clonmel union. His motion was rendered necessary in consequence of certain returns which had been laid upon the table of the House, and which, like those to which he referred on Friday last, had been falsified. When noticing the subject the last night the House met, he had made out what every noble Lord who heard him admitted to be a singular and very curious case, and he was compelled to-day to adduce another, which was to the full as extraordinary. In February, 1840, he (Lord Glengall) had moved for certain returns connected with the Clonmel union, together with copies of all the correspondence which had taken place between the Poor-law Commissioners and certain magistrates and others, respecting the election of guardians for the Clonmel union. That return was laid on the table, and in the month of May he had moved for the same return, together with other documents. On examining the two, he found there was a material difference—between that presented in February and the one presented in May; and although both purported to be copies of the same documents, yet the wording of the two were essentially different. He was quite aware that on reading and comparing both, noble Lords might say, that the difference was not material; but when he, who understood the case, and, as he believed, knew the reason why the documents had been falsified, the variation appeared to be important. From the manner in which the statement he had made on Friday, had been received by the House, it was manifest it was their Lordships' intention to have the matter fully investigated, and he had no doubt the House would come to a decision upon it, one way or other, very soon; and it was in order to make the case of falsification of the documents clear, that he brought the subject again before their Lordships on the present occasion. The return to which he meant first to draw their ordships attention, was that presented in February. The document bore no date, but it purported to be an extract from the letter of Denis Phelan, Esq., assistant Poor-law Commissioner, and was as follows:—
"I have been intimately acquainted with Mr. Butler for twenty-seven years; during

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the greater part of that time he was extensively engaged in the woollen trade, and conducted that business very respectably. He was also occupier of a tolerably large quantity of land. His character in these capacities was respectable, and without the slightest reproach.
"Mr. Butler lately retired from business, and resided in Clonmel as a private gentlemen. When the poor law union was about to be formed there, he applied to me for an introduction to the assistant commissioners, with the view of obtaining the situation of returning officer. To this request I acceded, feeling satisfied that his general character, business-like habits, and intimate knowledge of the country around; Clonmel and his being otherwise unemployed, were good qualifications for the office; and I shall be greatly disappointed if one of such intelligence and capacity Will not discharge his duties faithfully.
"I have, &c.
(Signed) "DENIS PHELAN,
"Assist. P. L. Commissioner."
He would now beg to call the attention of the House to the document presented in May. It was also the letter of Mr. Phelan, and commenced thus t—
"I have been intimately acquainted with Mr. Butler for twenty-seven years; during the greater part of that time, he was extensively engaged in the woollen trade, and conducted that business very respectably; he mm also occupier of a tolerably large quantity of land; his character in these capacities Was respectable, and without the slightest reproach."
So far both the returns agreed. But what followed was totally different, as the House would see. The document presented in May proceeds thus;—
"Mr. Butler having applied to me for an introduction to the assistant commissioners with the view of obtaining the situation of returning officer, I acceded to his request, feeling satisfied that his general character, business-like habits, and intimate knowledge of the country around Clonmell, and his being otherwise unemployed, are good qualifications for the office; and I shall be greatly disappointed if one of such intelligence and capacity will not discharge his duties faithfully."
Now in the last document to which he alt allusion to this person "having retired from business, and having lived as a private gentleman," was altogether omitted; and although this sight doubtless seem of little consequence to many noble Lords present, yet to him who understood the case, and knew well why the alteration had been made, it did appear of very great importance. After
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the return ordered in February had been kid upon the Table, and which he believed to be the true one, certain circumstances occurred to which he should presently refer, which might have been attended with awkward consequences to the parties concerned, if exposed under their own hands, and therefore to screen themselves the documents had been falsified. The House would recollect that, on Friday last, he directed their Lordships' attention to a letter written by Mr. Bagwell, on the 9th of March, 1840; and the commissioners' answer to that communication distinctly stated that, although Butler had been recommended to the situation by the assistant Poor-law commissioners, yet, that his appointment had not been made, although on the 19th February, preceding, they had, in a letter to Mr. Fennell (which they suppressed) as distinctly stated, that the person recommended by the assistant commissioners had been appointed. Now, in the returns presented in May, as well as those made in February, the date of Phelan's communication had been omitted. In the May return, letter No. 1 was dated the 16th February; and Phelan's letter, No. 2, followed, but without date. It was to be inferred, however, that being classed No. 2, and No. 3, which follows—it being dated the 15th February—that it was written previous to that date, whereas, in his opinion, it was not written for a month after that date, and ought to have been placed No. 8 in the correspondence, it having been evidently written in consequence of the complaint made by Mr. Bagwell against the meditated appointment of Mr. Butler. The documents were falsified for the purpose of showing their Lordships that Phelan's opinion bad been taken previously to the appointment having been made, whereas it had not been done until afterwards. With respect to this person having "resided in Clonmel as a private gentleman," it certainly would be news to the inhabitants of the town, that such had been the case. It was true, this person had been a retail woollen draper, and had retired from business, bat no one ever before heard that he had retired with any property. It was impossible that when the assistant commissioners recommended a man for office as being "a private gentleman," that it should not have weight. The assistant commissioners must have had a very extraordinary idea of what was

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the qualification necessary to constitute an Irish "private gentleman" inasmuch as the salary attached to the office to which this "private gentleman" had been recommended, was just ten pounds. Every one knew, that according as the law stood at present, it required a 10 l. qualification to constitute a freeholder in Ireland; and if the bill before the House of Commons should pass into a law, he (Lord Glengall) made no doubt that the qualification necessary to give a patent of "private gentility" in Ireland would be reduced, in order to suit the spirit of the age, from its present standard of 10 l. to 5l. In conclusion, the noble Earl said, he should place both the returns on the Table, and on a comparison it would be seen that one or other was false. It was not for him to say, that in falsifying the documents, the commissioners had committed a breach of the privileges of their Lordships' House. The question was in their Lordships' hands, and there he meant to leave it. As it was important to ascertain the dates of these letters of Mr. Phelan, he should move that a full report of the proceedings connected with the appointment of Mr. Butler, he laid on the Table of the House, together with the dates of the letters from Mr. Phelan, as they appeared in the returns of February and May last.
The Marquess of Normanbysaid, he had no objection whatever to grant the return moved for by his noble Friend. Indeed, after the statement that had been made, and after comparing the documents, it became absolutely necessary that this mutter should be sifted to the bottom. It might turn out that the alterations made were of no material consequence; but this would not, in his opinion, exonerate those who falsified the documents. He felt, in justice to those whose characters were implicated, as well as also with reference to the maintenance of their Lordships' privileges, that a full and ample investigation should take place; because it was manifest that if any officer under the Government could, with impunity, make alterations in the correspondence of his department, and which had been ordered to be laid before Parliament, no information could be relied on, and it would be idle to act upon any so supplied. The sooner, therefore, an investigation was had the better. After what occurred on Friday night, he felt it to be his duty to write to Mr. Nicholls, and he directed him to come over forth-
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with. That Gentleman would be in personal attendance on Thursday; and, if the explanation he had to offer through him was not considered satisfactory, he could be examined at the bar.
Motion agreed to.
Adjourned.