Lords Sitting of 12 February 1841

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By the Marquess of Salisbury, in favour of the Improvements in the Metropolis.

DRAINAGE OF TOWNS.
The Bishop of London, after presenting a petition from the mayor and burgesses of Leeds in favour of Drainage, said, the object of this petition was, in a great measure, answered by the leading provisions of the noble Marquess's (the Marquess of Normanby's) bill. This measure was a good beginning and it was most necessary to apply its provisions to the great towns throughout the country. It would make a great advance towards improving the moral condition of the people, and securing the appliances of religion. To give the working people habits of cleanliness, and to imbue them with a taste for ordinary domestic comfort, was an improvement which no provisions of this bill could effect, though it would go a greater length towards that desirable end than any efforts could do with which he was acquainted. He recollected that about two years ago, a number of benevolent individuals in London endeavoured by a p0rivate society to ensure cleanliness in the dwellings of the poor. But they found such difficulty in the opposition offered often by the owners of extensive sites, that they were obliged to abandon their undertaking and return the greater proportion of the subscription money. He hailed the bill of the noble Marquess as the first step towards the eradication of what, in its present state, must be a continual germ of social and moral disease.
Lord Ellenboroughso entirely agreed with the most rev. Prelate, that he preferred saying the very few words which he intended to address to their Lordships at that time, rather than on the second reading of the noble Marquess's bill. He believed the moral and religious improvement of the poor to be totally inconsistent with their physical degradation. To build churches, to build school-houses, and to employ clergymen and schoolmasters, was in his opinion utterly idle, while the physical wants and destitution of the poor, con-

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tinued as debasing as they now were. We began too far from the real source of the evil, unless we placed the poor man in such a position that he might have some self respect—that he might have something like a home: The object of their legislation should be—what perhaps this bill would do ultimately—to secure a home to the poor man, who was now driven (and he now spoke only of the manufacturer) from his wretched place of abode, and almost compelled to spend his evenings in the gin-shop; his wife followed his example. What should be done, if they wished to improve the general condition of this man, was to enable his wife to prepare for him a home where his children might welcome him on his return from the day's labour, and where he might hope for some degree of comfort, and enjoy some share of domestic happiness. Without this all attempts to improve the moral and religious condition of the poor were absurd. They must not shut their eyes to the fact that a great practical revolution had taken place in the state of society during the last half century. The proportion between the manufacturing and agricultural population had been altogether reversed, and with this change was altogether changed the structure of society. The landed proprietor was acquainted with the poor man who lived in his immediate neighbourhood; he visited his cottage, attended to his comforts, and took an interest in all his concerns. Farmers took an interest in the well-being of their labourers and servants, and the poor cottagers were full of kindly feelings towards those who were in a similar condition to themselves. There was one bond of connection between the agricultural population, which made them regard each other as members of one family. But it was otherwise in the manufacturing districts. There they saw beside great wealth the greatest possible misery, with no sort of connection between the classes so distinguished. Nothing was done, except in a few rare instances, by those who derived benefits from the exertions of the labouring manufacturer, for his moral improvement. This was a fearful state of society, and what they had to guard against was its continuance, and he was quite sure it behoved Parliament to employ every remedy in their power to improve the condition of that class of the community to which he had just referred.
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He was sure it behoved Parliament to apply every remedy in its power. His objection to the bill was not to its prospective regulations, but that it had not a retrospective operation. The evil existed. There were localities containing vast numbers of people, where fever was domiciled, and where benevolent individuals could not enter without almost the certainty of contagion and death. The truth of this was established by the report which had been received on the subject. He doubted whether the several courts of commissioners under the existing law were constituted with sufficiently extensive powers, and he thought this bill should proceed in the first instance to remodel all their powers and means of proceeding, to a certain degree. It extended the existing powers as to cleansing, but it took no step for securing a more free ventilation; and he did think that the noble Marquess should have had the courage to endeavour to apply a remedy to what was an existing evil. It was by good fortune, and through the blessing of Providence, that we had hitherto avoided a pestilence and the plague. The noble Marquess might have been deterred in the framing of his measure by an apprehension of interfering with what were called vested rights. He (Lord Ellenborough) did not think that reason sufficient. No man should be at liberty so to abuse his property as to affect the health and endanger the lives of the community; and though he admitted, that avarice had its rights, humanity had its rights also, and those ought at least to be equally respected. He wished that there were more of wider scope and more stringent enactments. His only objection to it was, that it was too limited. They had of late increased in population and wealth, but these alone were not the most certain signs of national prosperity and strength. That which was more important was, that wealth should be so distributed as to elevate the moral condition of the people, and secure the union of all classes of the community. We might look with pride to the result of the last census —to the extension of our commerce, and the increase in imports and exports; but if we had a demoralised population, increasing every day, and increasing in wretchedness, there was a rottenness at the heart of the structure of society, which must soon extend to the constitution itself. The change effected in the structure of

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society by the proportion between the manufacturing and agricultural population being reversed, was in itself a great revolution. In the course, he might say, of a few years, this greatest of innovations had been effected, and it practically changed the whole working of the constitution and government of this country. He called the serious attention of her Majesty's Government to this subject, for he was sure that some measure should be at once adopted to raise the physical condition and situation of the manufacturing poor. If that were not done, he agreed entirely with the right rev. Prelate, that, however excellent their laws, however virtuous their designs, however good their principles might be, they would never produce that moral and religious improvement in the character of the people which they desired.
Petition laid on the Table.
The Marquess of Normanby, in moving the Order of the Day for the scond reading of Drainage of Towns' Bill, said, that though he was at all times unwilling to trespass on their Lordships' attention, the paramount importance of this bill induced him somewhat to depart from the rule; and the observations which had fallen from the right rev. Prelate and from the noble Baron opposite confirmed him in the opinion that he did not exaggerate the importance of this measure when he solicited for it their Lordships' careful consideration. It was stated by the noble Baron that this bill was of too limited a nature; but in the course of his observations he thought he should be able to satisfy the noble Baron that the course which he had selected was the most expedient, and likely to be the most successful. But his first business was to call the attention of the House and of the public to the existence of the evil; for he felt sure, that when he did so, the Legislature and the public would feel that their neglect had produced a state of things which at this moment affected not only the health and comfort, but, by violating in many places the decencies of life, brutalized the condition of a large portion of our industrious countrymen. If, thirty years ago, the bill which he was now moving had passed, many of the present evils would not only not have attained their present alarming state, but would never have existed at all. As to the bill which he was proposing to their Lordships,
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he considered it but one step in the right direction. It proposed to deal with what was, after all, the source of the evil complained of by the noble Baron, and to apply a remedy to it with the least possible introduction of new machinery. He had chosen to place the proposed powers in the hands of a body already in existence, although its operation might not be in all respects perfect, for similar purposes, in preference to investing any new functionaries with such a responsibility. He was aware that in addressing their Lordships, if he touched in any respect on medical and physical topics, whatever strong grounds they might furnish for legislation, he could not, of course, be supposed to impress them on their Lordships' attention as the result of professional experience. At the same time there were a few general results to which he was sure he should be pardoned if he appealed in support of his measure. He believed it might be considered an established fact, that almost all diseases to which human nature was subject, where there was no predisposition existing in the constitution itself, arose from malaria, the consequence of the decomposition of animal and vegetable matter. It was ascertained that this was a subtle poison thus produced, which affected the vital energies as certainly, though not as speedily, as arsenic. An experiment had been tried, by which it was ascertained, that by condensing a certain quantity of air saturated with malaria, a fluid was produced so charged with animal or vegetable matter in a state of putrescence, that when the smallest particle was inserted in the vein of a dog, the animal instantly died. It must produce the same effect, though in a slower ratio, when respirated by the lungs and admitted to the system. If he could once establish the extent and character of this poison, the next point was to direct their attention to the means by which the evil was to be removed. There was an instance in illustration of the facility with which the evil was abated when the cause was removed, given before the committee of the Commons last year, and no doubt familiar to their Lordships from the fact that it had been repeatedly given in the newspapers. There was a ditch near the terminus of the Birmingham Railway at Euston-square, into which a number of drains discharged themselves. The consequence was, typhus fever continually prevailed there. The simple remedy was applied of

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covering in the ditch, and ever since the place had been quite free from such infectious diseases. Another instance he should cite was High-street, Aldgate. The butchers at one side of that street were induced with great difficulty, to open drains into a common sewer, and the immediate result was the total disappearance of fever at that side, while at the opposite side, where the inhabitants refused to take this precaution, fever still prevailed. There was one passage which he should cite from Dr. Lynch's evidence, which would save the House the necessity of listening to him further on this point. It was this: —
"On the south side of my immediate district there is one court, called Back Bear-alley, in which, within the last twelvemonths, I may say within the last six months upwards of forty cases of typhus fever have occurred; there are not more than nine houses in that court, two people cannot walk abreast in it; they have one common privy, and sometimes there are packed in one room six or seven of the poorest and most destitute of our fellow-creatures; this is under the surveillance of the inquest. The drainage was deficient in that Back Bear-alley; I directed the attention of the inquest to it, and they sent notice to the parties concerned, that they were coming: the consequence was, they had their houses put in order; they were washed and cleansed, and in some instances, where the fever cases had occurred, they took the precaution of whitewashing; six cases having occurred, some of which were sent to the fever Hospital, and others treated at home; notwithstanding these precautions, thirty-four cases afterwards occurred, and five or six deaths. Is that from want of cleansing and draining?—Those are co-operating causes. Is the drainage bad there?—The drainage was quite defective. I directed the attention of the authorities, and sent a report to the commissioners: Mr. Kelsey is the paid surveyor; I received this reply, in which they state that twenty-two miles of sewers had been explored and cleansed in the city of London, and the ventilation improved: then they go to state, that they will attend further to this, and they have since laid out in that place, I believe, 800 l. or 900 l.; and since they have laid out that money, I have not been called to a single case of typhus fever. You think that what they effected there has done good?—Certainly."
He did not think that much local amelioration could be obtained without the assistance and control of a central board; but he thought also that any such board which should be established should be altogether distinct from the Poor-law commissioners. In support of this opinion he would refer their Lordships to the report of an inquest which appeared in that
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day's paper, and which though he had no authentic information on the subject, he dared say was correctly reported. The noble Marquess quoted the following case—

LAMENTABLE DESTITUTION.—
Yesterday afternoon (Thursday Feb. 11), an inquisition was taken before Mr. Baker and a respectable jury, at the Nelson's Arms, Nicholl's-row, Church-street, Bethnal-green, on view of the body of Sarah Bell, aged 50, who died in the kitchen of No. 20, Vincent-street, Bethnal-green, and whose death was brought on by want and destitution.
The jury viewed the remains and the late habitation of the deceased. The place exhibited a frightful picture of misery, it being described by the coroner and jury as being totally unfit for any human being to live in. Two old chairs without any backs formed the whole furniture. The walls were running down with moisture, and the body of the deceased, which was in a shell, was so extremely emaciated as to excite a very painful sensation among all present.
Charles Hawkins described the deceased to have been his partner for eighteen years, was supported into the room by Stokes, one of the relieving-officers of the parish of Bethnal-green, in which he resided. He was so weak as scarcely to be able to speak. Upon being sworn, he stated that he was by trade a shoemaker, and that he had lived about eleven months in the kitchen at No. 20 Vincent-street. The deceased had been paralytic for seven years, and latterly could do nothing for her living. She was a single woman. He himself had been ill for some time past, and was therefore, able to earn but little. He made pump-shoes, for which he was paid 8d. per pair, but latterly he had not made a pair a day. For the last ten months he had not eaten a morsel of meat, and they had lived chiefly upon potatoes and bread. Deceased was taken ill on Wednesday week. Witness sent for no medical advice, and gave no information to any one of her illness. From that day she got worse, and died on Tuesday.
By the Jury; I have had two children, but one died. A daughter lived with us, who is about fifteen years old. She had employment occasionally. I have not slept on a bed for a year, nor had the deceased. They all lay upon the floor during the night.
The Coroner asked the witness why be did not apply to the parish?—Witness. Because I dreaded going in, from what people said of the workhouses.
Coroner: And was the deceased of the same opinion?—Witness; She was, sir.
"John Royston, the workhouse undertaker, of Bethnal-green, stated, that when he removed the deceased, to put her in a shell, he found her head resting on a hat-box lid, which was on a Bible. He has seen many scenes of distress, but none to equal that where deceased lay.

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"Elizabeth Assel, No. 19 Vincent-street, deposed, that on the evening of Wednesday week, she and deceased's landlord went to the deceased, and that the latter said, that he had got an order for her to be admitted into the workhouse. Deceased, in reply to this offer, at the same time holding up a sort of dagger, with which she used to poke what little fire she had, said, that the first man that came nigh her she would stick the—dagger in him. She was then on the floor, and had a sort of sacking over her. Her landlord found her dead on Tuesday night last.
The coroner remarked, that the case was one of the most dreadful he had ever seen. Verdict.—Natural death, brought on by privation, want, and destitution."
It was most unfortunate (continued the noble Marquess), that such prejudices against the relief provided in the workhouse existed in the minds of people in this poor woman's situation; but at the same time he thought that it was important, when attempting to act for the benefit of the poorer classes, to do so without offending their prejudices, and therefore he thought that any central board on the subject of drainage should be distinct from that of the Poor-law commissioners. He would also quote a passage from the able report of Dr. South wood Smith:—
"From this table it appears, that the total number of persons in the metropolitan district who received parochial relief, including indoor and out-door relief, during the year ended the 25th March, 1838, was 77,186. Of this number, 13,972 were the subjects of fever. Of these there were, attacked with intermittent fever, 402; synochus, 7,017: typhus, 5,692; scarlatina, 861; total, 13,972. From the preceding table it also appears, that the prevalence of fever in the several districts bore still less relation to the number of paupers than the number of paupers to the general population. Thus in Bermondsey, the number of paupers being 3,000, the number of fever cases was 593; while in Bethnal-green, the number of paupers being 3,632, the number of fever cases was 1,209.' In St. George in the East, the number of paupers being 6,869, nearly double that of Bethnal-green, the number of fever cases (627) scarcely exceeds one half. Greenwich, compared with Bethnal-green, afforded nearly double the number of paupers (6,607), but considerably less than one-half the fever cases (522). In Hackney and Holborn, the number of paupers being nearly the same, the number of fever cases in Holborn was nearly double. In Lambeth, the number of paupers are more than double those of Bethnal-green; but the fever cases in Lambeth exceed those in Bethnal-green only by 409. In St. Martin's-in-the-Fields, the number of paupers being only one-third less than
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those of Bethnal-green, the fever cases are nearly one-eighth less. In Stepney, as compared with Bethnal-green, the pauper population is in the proportion of 9,596 to 3,632; while the fever cases are in the proportion of 1,348 to 1,209; showing that the comparative number of fever cases in Stepney is only one-half that of the neighbouring union of Bethnal-green. In Whitechapel, out of a pauper population of 5,856,2,404 were the subjects of fever, nearly one-half; but in St. George-the-Martyr, the number of paupers being 1,467, the fever cases were 1,276; that is, the whole of the persons in this union who received parochial relief, with the exception of 191, were the subjects of fever. On the other hand, in Camberwell, the number of paupers being 1,158, only 309 less than those of St. George-the-Martyr, the fever cases were no more than 238; but in Wands-worth and Clapham, and in the Strand, while the number of paupers in both unions exceeded those of St. George-the-Martyr, the fever cases were in Wandsworth and Clapham 234, and in the Strand 231. These comparisons afford striking illustrations of the fact already established by the records of the Fever Hospital, that the main sources of fever in London are certain districts, of which the principal are, Whitechapel, Lambeth, St. George-the-Martyr, Bethnal-green, Holborn, and St. George-in-the-East. Out of the total number of fever cases in the metropolitan unions (13,972) these parishes alone afforded 9,228 cases."
Another important point in the consideration of this subject, was the bad construction of houses in which the poorer classes lived. Mr. Pennythorn, an eminent surveyor, stated in his evidence, not only that the Houses of this description were all generally themselves ill ventilated, but that they were too often built in narrow courts, the close and unwholesome atmosphere of which was still more deteriorated by being closely hemmed in on all sides by buildings of a similar class surrounding them. Dr. Southwood Smith stated that in a room, six feet by ten, and only five feet high, which he had seen, six people lived and slept. In another room, seven feet by six, there were four women and two men sleeping every night. And another instance which the doctor mentioned was that of a room not half the size of the committee-room in which he was giving his evidence, in which no less than fifteen persons dwelt. Now, he (the Marquess of Normanby) would ask, was this a state of things which ought to be permitted to exist in this metropolis, which was said to be the centre of civilisation. He mentioned some of these painful details because he really believed, that the mere knowledge of these facts by the commu-

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nity at large would be sufficient to enlist their sympathy and ensure the adoption of some remedy for so grievous a state of things. He was the more confident in this expectation, because he believed, that at a very small cost something effectual might be done to stay the ravages of disease, and avert the most grievous terrors of poverty amongst a large portion of our suffering fellow-creatures. We might mention, as an illustration of the great necessity of dealing with the subject, that inquiries into it had lately been instituted in the city of Calcutta, and a Committee appointed on the subject, who, much to their credit, recommended that any sacrifices that were necessary should be made, to remedy the evils arising from want of drainage. In this Report mention was made of the efforts of this cause of the Marquess Wellesley, the greatest statesman India ever saw, who, as nothing was too great for his conception, so nothing seemed too small to escape his attention, and the Committee recommended carrying into effect his Lordship's propositions. This Committee expressed the greatest admiration at what was doing in England, even in the manufacturing towns. Great as this evil was in England, it did not appear to have produced any sensible effect upon the general returns of deaths through the whole empire. But in the manufacturing towns the case was very different, and the effects of disease very evident in the returns; and when it was considered that, as appeared from the statements before him, the relative pro-portions between the agricultural and manufacturing population of this country, as mentioned by the noble Baron, had exactly changed places in the course of the last fifty years, this fact became a very important one; for it appeared that whereas in the year 1790 the manufacturing population of the country was about one-half as numerous as the agricultural, at the present moment it was under the mark to state that the manufacturing population was double the agricultural. Now, upon the testimony of Sir Gilbert Blane, it appeared that the mortality of Manchester in 1757 was one in twenty-five; in 1770 it was one in twenty-eight; in 1790 it was one in fifty-eight; and in 1811 it was set down as one in seventy-four, though this almost appeared a less amount of mortality than it was possible to consider as the fact. But he begged their
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Lordships to consider what was the mortality at the present moment? The new census was not yet ready, but some approximation to the facts which it would present might be obtained by calculation; and, supposing the population of Manchester to have increased in a similar proportion as heretofore upon the last census, it might be set down in round numbers as 280,000. Out of this population, the deaths during the last year were 9,276 in number, being an average of more than double what it was in 1811, or one in thirty-one. Now, turning to Glasgow, he would beg to read part of the evidence of Mr. Symons, who expresses himself thus:
"I have seen human degradation in some of its worst phases, both in England and abroad, but I can advisedly say, that I did not believe, until I visited the wynds of Glasgow, that so large an amount of filth, crime, misery, and disease, existed in one spot in any civilized country;" (and, again) "In the lower lodging-houses ten, twelve, and sometimes twenty persons of both sexes and all ages sleep promiscuously on the floor, in different degrees of nakedness. These places are generally, as regards dirt, damp, and decay, such as no person of common humanity to animals would stable his horse in."
Dr. Cowan, in his work on "the Vital Statistics of Glasgow" gave the following statement as to mortality in Glasgow:
"In 1821 it was one in thirty-nine; in 1831 it was one in thirty; in 1835 it was one in twenty-nine; in the last year it was one in twenty-five."
Of Liverpool, Dr. Duncan gave the following statements: he estimated the working population of Liverpool to amount to 170,000 or 175,000, of which 38,000 lived in cellars. Of these cellars there were in round numbers 8,000, and the average inhabitants in each something under five heads. The mortality amongst the inhabitants of these cellars was 35 per cent. greater than that in other parts of the town. Of the remaining number of the working population of Liverpool, 86,400 lived in close courts, having no underground drainage. The crowded and filthy condition of these courts was graphically described by Dr. Duncan, as well as the density of their population; he had seen, for instance, four families huddled together in one room ten feet square. Dr. Duncan spoke particularly of the dreadful stench which came from these miserable lodging-houses; which an Irishman, on arriving in Liverpool, with a sort of melancholy wit,

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declared was "so dreadful as almost to force the roof off his head." Hull was a town, now, of rising importance; but, from the evidence of Mr. Wood, the new buildings in that place were liable to all the objections which had been stated to exist in London, Manchester, and other large towns—namely, want of ventilation and drainage, and building back to back. In Leeds it appeared that the greater portion of the working classes lived on the eastern side of the town, whilst the wealthy merchant and higher classes lived on the west side, and the contrast here was very remarkable; the mortality in the eastern district being one in twenty-four, whilst in the west it was one in thirty-six. Of the state of the dwellings and health of the poorer population of Dublin, Dr. Maunsell gave a painful description, and from which it appeared that an immense proportion of the cases of fever admitted into the fever hospitals, came from the dense, ill-built, ill-ventilated, and filthy courts and allies occupied by the poorer classes. Now, looking at the effect of this state of things upon the duration of life in these parts, he begged their Lordships' attention to the following remarkable facts: —Of deaths under three years of age there were in Manchester 428 in a thousand, in London 338, in the North and West Ridings of Yorkshire 282, and in the rural parts of Northumberland 253 in a thousand. On the other hand, of deaths over seventy years of age, there were in Manchester only fifty-three out of a thousand, in London ninety-nine, in the North and West Ridings of Yorkshire 202, and in Northumberland 210 out of a thousand; being a proportion of four to one in favour of the rural districts over the densely populated streets of Manchester. Having gone through these details of the case in a sanatory point of view, he was sure that he need say very little to their Lordships as to the demoralizing effects resulting from the miserable accommodation which these poor people enjoyed. When the fact was considered of large numbers of persons of both sexes sleeping promiscuously, and sometimes almost in a state of nudity, in the same small apartment, it was quite unnecessary for him to suggest to their Lordships what must be the inevitable consequences of such a state of things. As to the melancholy and degenerate condition of the great manufacturing towns, their Lordships could not have
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stronger evidence than in that of Mr. Fletcher, from which he would beg to read a passage, descriptive of the appearance of Sunday in Manchester: —
"How do they employ the Sunday afternoon?—The whole Sunday is too frequently lost in either drinking or inactive idleness. It is a most painful thing at Manchester, with the full knowledge that there is a vast labouring population around you, to observe that the whole Sunday is passing away without seeing the great mass of the labouring classes, as you would see them here, with their wives and children walking out, and you wonder whore they are; they are too numerously at home in their dirt."
Mr. Fletcher then went on to state that very little attention was paid to religion by these poor people, and that it was a remarkable contrast, after coming from a rural district, to see so few people in this large, densely populated town, going to church. He would not go the length of saying that upon people in a state of wretchedness and filth, such as that described by all the witnesses on this subject, education would be entirely thrown away, but undoubtedly the effect of it must be very much impaired, falling upon such a soil. Where so great an extent of physical discomfort existed, very little advantage could be expected to be derived from education, though he was not without some hope that before very long the state of things might be so far ameliorated as to render the exertions of the instructors of some utility. In bringing this subject before their Lordships, he was very anxious to avoid saying anything which might be calculated to give rise to any differences of opinion, and therefore, he would not go into the political inferences which might seem to be deducible from the facts which he had mentioned; but he felt bound, before he sat down, to make one observation in testimony and commendation of the patience and general good conduct with which the poorer classes of our manufacturing towns had borne the sufferings which they had had to endure. During the late rigorous weather these sufferings had been greatly aggravated, and the good conduct of the sufferers most exemplary. He would mention, as an instance, that at Manchester, on New Year's-day last, when the working people were invited by the Chartist leaders to assemble, in order to greet certain persons on their discharge from prison, only 1,000 or 1,200 assembled in obedience to that requisition. He would now beg to call

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their Lordships' attention to one or two circumstances showing the importance of encouraging an improved style of building in the tenements occupied by the working classes. Upon this subject he would refer to the valuable evidence of Mr. Cubitt, and also to that of Mr. Ashworth, who, in the course of his examination before the committee, gave some very interesting and gratifying instances which had happened within his own knowledge. Mr. Ashworth said:—
"Many of the working people employed in factories and other workshops of our neighbourhood obtain good wages as a whole family, because frequently the various branches, both the boys and girls, are employed; and it not unfrequently occurs, that a family may have forty or fifty shillings per week of income in one cottage; the houses, built back to back, afford only one room to live in, and do the cooking, washing, and other necessary domes-tie operations of the house; in such cases, when the head of the family and the boys come from work on Saturday evening, the necessary domestic occupations of washing or cooking being obliged to be carried on in the same room, renders it extremely uncomfortable, and consequently the father of the family is induced to go out for recreation and amusement to the public-house; besides which, there is little room for filling such a cottage with furniture; and I have remarked that families, with large incomes, have not unfrequently, in such cottages, a very small amount of furniture; and I have further remarked, that in our own establishment, when a family has removed into a larger house, they have frequently occupied the spare rooms with a better class of furniture, which of itself induces them to better habits and a more respectable feeling in society."
And again:—
"I have known a man and his family, with a good income, go from a good cottage to a bad one to save a shilling a-week; but in our own case, for twenty years, we have continued to make every successive lot of cottages more expensive and more convenient; and the most expensive cottages are the most sought after by our own people; and thus a man, with a very moderate income, will desire to bespeak beforehand the first opportunity of getting into a better cottage; and families who have obtained the privilege of a better cottage, when I have enquired subsequently into their previous condition, they have scarcely been able to account to me as to what has been the inducing cause to their improved condition: but, when questioned further, have acknowledged that the opportunity of putting better furniture into their houses has imperceptibly accumulated a large and valuable stock of furniture."
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With respect to the bill now before their Lordships, it was not his intention to extend the provisions of it to Scotland unless he could adapt them to the machinery at present in use in that country, but he did not see any reason why its operation should not be extended to Ireland. With respect to the machinery by which in the latter instance it should be carried into operation, whether a new machinery should be devised, or whether the present paving commissioners might be made available for the purpose, would be a question for after consideration. He would postpone also for the present the question, whether this matter should be put under the control of a central board or not. He would direct their Lordships' attention also, before be sat down, to the strong recommendations which had been made by many of the witnesses before the committee, in favour of establishing public walks for the recreation of the working classes in large towns. The state of burying grounds also was one amongst the various matters of detail which had occupied his (the Marquess of Normanby's) mind in reference to this important subject; but, indeed, his object on the present occasion was scarcely more than to make some impression upon their Lordships' minds, and upon that of the public, as to the importance of this great subject, with a view of making a beginning in the work of amelioration. It might be said, perhaps, that in some of the remarks he had made upon the destitute condition of such large classes of their fellow-creatures, that he was placing in too strong a light the result of his observation. He could assure the House that this was not a case in which any good could arise from concealment. Those who were the sufferers were aware of the facts, and blindness to them on the part of their Lordships would avail nothing. He hoped, now that their attention had been called to this subject, if they could not effect thorough and immediate relief, their Lordships would at all events, by their kindness and sympathy, blunt, in some measure, the edge of misery, and remove the bitterness of feeling that at present existed. He implored them, by their own high character, by their kindness of feeling, by those virtues which they were so much in the habit of practising in their own immediate circles —the highest of which was charity—he would not say to pass this bill, for that he

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was sure they would do, but to give their most serious attention to the remedying those evils which he had attempted to describe, and which, if not remedied, must, in time, produce a total disorganisation of the frame-work of society; and, as a first step in the right direction, and as an earnest of their future endeavours, he requested their Lordships to give the bill before the House a second reading.
The Marquess of Salisburysaid, that if he had any objection to the present bill, it was that it did not go far enough. He need hardly say that he had no objection to the second reading of the bill, but he begged to remind the House that it would interfere with many existing rights. He would not, at that stage of the measure, trouble the House with any observations, but he would strongly recommend the noble Marquess to refer the bill to a committee up stairs, so that all its provisions might be carefully considered.
The Earl of Wicklowsaid, he conceived it almost impossible, that any individual could have read the report referred to by the noble Marquess, and refuse to give to the noble Marquess a most active co-operation in endeavouring to remedy the evils there described. After reading that report, what struck him most was, that the bill appeared too little. There were many evils left untouched by this bill, but he was glad to hear the noble Marquess state, it was his intention to introduce other measures similar to the bill before the House. There was one great evil which this bill did not touch, he meant the letting of lodging houses. It was a common thing at present for such house? to be let after the immediate death of the former tenant from fever, and as many as three, or even four families, had thus been successively carried off, owing to the neglect and cupidity of the proprietors of lodging houses. He thought a most beneficial amendment might be made in the bill by the introduction of a clause to compel landlords to clean and whitewash every house before letting it. Another omission caused him some surprise, namely, the omission of Scotland from the operation of this bill. If there was any portion of the empire that required a measure of this sort, it was Scotland, for he believed, that the condition of Glasgow and Edinburgh was worse than that of any towns of England. He wished to call the attention of the noble Marquess to the
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28th clause of the bill, which contained a most stringent provision. That clause directed, that after a certain time cellars should not be occupied as dwelling places, unless furnished with areas of certain dimensions. Now, the great proportion of the cellars in existence would not be furnished with areas of the required dimensions. It appeared, that in Liverpool alone there were about 39,000 or 40,000 inhabitants of cellars. Now, unless these houses were rebuilt, it would be impossible for these persons to continue to occupy these cellars, and what, he would ask, must be the distress of that immense population under such circumstances? It would be impossible for them to provide new buildings within any reasonable time. The House must recollect, that this would occur in London, Manchester, and several other large towns, and if carried rapidly into effect, would produce great disorder. He thought, that the noble Marquess did not intend, and he was sure the House would not sanction, the carrying out of this provision. Another great evil would be the carrying all disputes with landlords into the courts of record in Westminster. He thought the local courts could settle these disputes with much greater facility. Again, no provision was made for the remuneration of the surveyors of sewers, the appointment of those persons being in the hands of the corporations in corporate towns, and in other places in the hands of the magistrates. The only remuneration that he could discover in the bill was a fee for the surveyor of new buildings. There was another provision of the bill which he thought unnecessary, namely, that no house should have beyond a certain number of rooms, unless those rooms were of certain dimensions. Now, he thought, that if they secured a sufficient sewerage and ventilation, it was unnecessary to go into such detail as this.
The Marquess of Westminsterbegged pardon for interrupting the noble Earl, but if they were to have a committee up stairs, he thought that the most proper place to discuss the details of the bill.
The Earl of Wicklowdid not understand the noble Marquess to consent to refer the bill to a committee up stairs.
The Marquess of Normanbyhad no objection to refer the bill to a select committee, as their Lordships appeared to think that a more satisfactory course.
The Earl of Wicklow: In that case he would not trouble the House with any further observations.
The Marquess of Northamptonbegged to make one observation. The 22d clause of the bill enacted,
"That it should not be lawful to build any two opposite rows of houses in any town or village, which shall be separated from each other by a space not less than twenty-five feet wide where there is a carriage-way between such houses, or not less than twenty feet in the case of alleys and foot passages where there is no carriage-way.
He did not think the proposed width sufficient, but the observation he rose to make was, that no provision was made as to the height of the houses, so that it would still be in the power of landlords to defeat them by building houses disproportionably high.
The Marquess of Normanbybegged, in answer to his noble Friend opposite (Earl of Wicklow), to state, that the provisions of the bill were to be extended to Ireland, although he did not know whether it might be found advisable to employ the same machinery in that country as in England. It was also his intention to have a similar bill introduced for Scotland, but he thought it would be better to leave the framing of it to some of the law officers of that country, as the bill might have particular interests to deal with. As to dwelling in cellars, it certainly was his intention, if possible, to cause a discontinuance of that practice, unless under the restrictions imposed by the bill.
Bill read a second lime, and referred to a select committee.
Adjourned to Tuesday.