HL Deb 30 March 1840 vol 53 cc225-7
The Earl of Aberdeen

wished to call the attention of the noble Viscount and of the House to the subject of the Church of Scotland. About eight months ago the noble Viscount had assured a deputation from Scotland that the Government had taken the subject into its serious consideration, with the view of applying a remedy. Two months ago, after Parliament had met, when he had put a question to the noble Viscount, the answer which he received was that probably some legislative measure would be necessary, but he could not say of what description. On that question being repeated, the noble Viscount had said, that he could not make up his mind whether any legislative measure should be introduced or not. Now, he could understand that the noble Viscount might make up his mind to do nothing, or that he might not have any measure on the subject prepared, in consequence of the difficulties which surrounded it; but not to be prepared to say whether he would do something or do nothing, was that proper?— was it decent?—was it honest? Was this a government? The peace of the country, as well as the state of its most important institutions, were involved in the settlement of this question. An answer of some description their Lordships and the country had a right to expect, and he hoped that the noble Viscount remained no longer in doubt whether he would do anything or nothing. He urged this matter now, because he believed that by this lime the noble Viscount might have come to some conclusion. He had at all events reason to suppose that the noble Viscount had abandoned his first intention; and he should be glad if the noble Viscount would inform the House to what determination he had come.

Viscount Melbourne

said, notwithstanding the declaration of the noble Lord, I can say no more on this subject now than I have already said—that I am not prepared to say when the Government will bring in a measure on this subject, or whether they will bring one in at any time. I perfectly admit the importance of the case. I perfectly and entirely admit its difficulty; but I should ill discharge my duty if I were to allow myself to be urged by the tone and the taunts of the noble Lord into taking any steps in a matter upon which I could not see my way clearly before me. I have had experience enough of the evil consequences of a Government undertaking to bring in a measure on a subject before they had settled what measure it was proper that they should bring in. The noble Lord calls on me to say whether the Government will propose anything to Parliament on the subject; and I say, that taking into consideration the great difficulties of the case, and the vast differences of opinion which prevail; seeing that no two men, or two bodies of men, appear to be agreed as to the course which we ought to take; and looking also to the advice which the noble Lord himself has given us, by no means to be precipitate in any proposition which we might make, I am not prepared at present to pledge the Government to introduce any measure on this subject. This is a matter of great importance, a serious difference of opinion between the supreme Court of Law on the one hand, and the Supreme Ecclesiastical Assembly on the other, carried on— I will not say with very great violence— a contest in which both of them, I will not say, though others do, have exceeded their powers—but in which each has carried the powers which it possesses to the utmost extent; and those who are engaged in this manner— point to point, neither of them being prepared to give way, neither being prepared or offering to concede anything to the other— turn round upon us and say to the Government, a third party, "Now settle this matter in a way that will be satisfactory to both of us." Is that an easy task to be cast upon a Government? Much as I feel the evils of delay, much as I feel the evils of agitation and discord, I answer the noble Lord, who says, "bring in a measure and allay the discord," by reminding him that a measure will not always allay discord; it may, on the contrary, inflame it. If it could be entirely satisfactory to both parties, then such a result might be expected; but any measure which might be introduced would, in all probability, be more satisfactory to one than the other; and I cannot therefore anticipate the healing and composing effect which the noble Lord expects from a bill on this subject; and certainly, under all the circumstances, I cannot, consistently with my duty, pledge the Government to the introduction of any measure.

The Earl of Aberdeen

had heard the declaration of the noble Viscount with great regret; it seemed to him to explain the cause of the delay. The noble Viscount was afraid that he could not propose a measure that would be satisfactory to both parties; but did it not occur to the noble Viscount that he had a duty to perform? Was this a mere speculative difference between two bodies? The noble Viscount forgot the state of the country, and forgot also that the question was whether the law was to prevail on one side or the other. In that part of the country with which he was connected, and more than a noble Duke on the cross benches, it was not the fact that both parties, as the noble Viscount said, had carried their powers to the utmost extent. In that part of the country the law remained unexecuted; because if an attempt were made to execute it, there bloodshed would instantly ensue. He knew that many were armed, and ready to resist any attempt to carry it into effect. The law was despised; the decree had been pronounced, but not executed. Was it not, then, the duty of the Government either to alter the law or to ensure its execution? After all this delay the noble Viscount would very likely be precipitate at last; and he did say, that it was abandoning the first duty of a Government not to take some steps to settle a question of this sort. He gave no opinion as to which party was right or wrong; the Government was bound to form its own judgment of what it was necessary and advisable for them to do, without looking to the satisfaction of one party or the other.

The Earl of Galloway

said, that it seemed as though the Government were merely waiting to see in what way the greatest advantage might accrue to themselves.

Conversation at an end.