Lords Sitting of 27 March 1840

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a third time:—Mutiny; Marine Mutiny.
Petitions presented. By the Marquess of Westminster, and the Earl of Lovelace, from several places, for, and by Lords Fitzgerald, and Wharncliffe, and the Duke of Buckingham, from a number of places, against, the Total and Immediate Repeal of the Corn-laws.—By the Dukes of Richmond, and Buccleugh, the Marquesses of Bute, and Londonderry, and the Earl of Aberdeen, from a great many places, against the existing system of Church Patronage, and in favour of Non-Intrusion.

CORN LAWS.
The Marques of Westminster, in presenting a petition from a place in Lancashire, praying for a repeal of the Corn-laws, supported the prayer of the petition. At the same time he must observe, that he thought the change which the petitioners desired to see effected, would not tend so far to lower the price of bread as to afford them any material advantage, and if that were true, as he fully believed it was, the landlords and the farmers would not have so much reason to dread the proposed repeal. He was surprised at the inconsistency of a noble Lord opposite, (Ashburton), who was now opposed to the alteration of the Corn-laws, but who some years since in the House of Commons had strenuously opposed a motion which had for its object to increase the protection to agriculture.
Lord Ashburtonsaid, that just five-and-twenty years ago, he had, being then a Member of the House of Commons, resisted further protection to the agricultural interest. The proposition at that time had been the establishment of such provisions as would keep the price of wheat up to 60 s. per quarter; but there were in those days, men who contended that the price ought to be kept up to 80 s., and even some who went so far as to say that the protection ought to go so high as 120 s. He had re-

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sisted that increased protection to the agricultural interest, and now, after the lapse of a quarter of a century, he should do the same. He hoped it would be borne in mind, that there was a wide difference between supporting an existing arrangement and establishing a new system.
The Duke of Richmondwas surprised at the statement of the noble Marquess, that the repeal of the Corn-laws would not have the effect of injuring the agricultural interest, because it would not reduce the price of corn. Then why all this agitation for their repeal? It was no such thing. The agitators knew that if they could persuade Parliament to repeal the protection of the agriculturists their interests would be destroyed. The farmers would not be able to employ half the men, nor to pay them half the wages they now did and what would be its effect in Scotland and Ireland? He complained of this, and the landed interest had a right to complain, that year after year this question was agitated, and thereby no landed proprietor could sell his land, nor any tenant think it safe to take a lease, while certain paid parties went about the country teaching the labourer not to look with confidence to his employer, and preaching that the interest of the landlord and the tenant was not one and the same. Neither was this a question on which all the manufacturers Were agreed, for many looked forward to these discussions year after year with great alarm. He hoped no bill on the subject would pass the House of Commons. He believed it would not, because he believed the House of Commons represented the people; but if such a bill should unfortunately pass that House, he hoped that their Lordships would, on the second reading, reject it by a large and triumphant majority.
Petition laid on the table.

LORD SEATON — THE QUEEN'S MESSAGE.
The order of the day for considering her Majesty's most gracious message in relation to Lord Seaton, having been read,
Viscount Melbournesaid—I now rise my Lords, to move that an humble address be presented to her Majesty, expressive of your Lordships' approbation of the sentiments contained in her Majesty's message, and to assure her Majesty, that your Lordships will be happy to concur with me in carrying those wishes into effect. Upon the early life and career
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of the noble Lord who is the subject of the present message, it is not my intention to expatiate, particularly in the presence of so many noble Lords whom I see around me, who are so much better able to speak upon such subjects than I can possibly be; suffice it to say, that from his youth he has been a soldier, and a distinguished soldier—that he has held the most confidential situations under the most distinguished commanders, and borne a considerable share in that series of triumphs which have shed such a lustre upon the British nation, and conferred so much glory upon the British arms, and so much advantage to the country and the world. Allow me, my Lords, now briefly to call your attention to the subject of the present message. After having been governor of Upper Canada, the noble Lord became commander of her Majesty's forces in both these provinces. During the period of that command, there broke out that unfortunate insurrection, which, for a time, entirely unsettled that country, and which he met with the promptitude and decision, and prudence and precaution, which rendered it of very short duration, and speedily restored the tranquillity of that country. This happened under the government of Lord Gosford; and when he left Canada, Lord Seaton succeeded to the government of the provinces. When her Majesty was advised to send out Lord Durham as Governor-general of the Canadas, the noble Lord instantly accepted, under the new Governor-general, the post he had formerly held as commander of the forces in these provinces; not, in my opinion, the least prudent or signal act of his Lordship's life, and evincing, at the same time, the moderation of his character, and his anxiety to serve her Majesty in any capacity which he might be called upon to do. He put aside all personal feeling, and acted in the most cordial manner with the new Governor-general. I think, my Lords, this was not the least noble trait in his character. He acted in a manner which did honour to the service, in performing the duty required of him, without regard to personal considerations, or to circumstances which might by others be considered humiliating. Next year, when the civil war broke out again, he acted with the same promptitude and prudence, and the disturbances were soon put down. I say, my Lords, that the prudence and wisdom of his civil services were equally conspicuous and valuable, and such, I believe I may say, as to command

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the universal approbation of the House and the country, and to merit the honours which her Majesty had been advised to bestow upon him. I call upon your Lordships to concur with the other House of Parliament to give him the means of supporting that honour. To this application there has been but one exception, and that a most honourable one. The only obstacle was a doubt in the mind of the noble and gallant Lord himself, whether the services which he had rendered were such as to merit the honours and rewards bestowed on him. That doubt was communicated to the Commander of the forces, and I believe that was the only doubt expressed in any quarter—it is the only one I have heard of. I trust that the House rather agree with the general voice of the country, than with the modest doubt expressed by the noble and gallant Lord himself; and, therefore, in the confident, expectation of your Lordships' assent, I move, "That an humble address be presented to her Majesty for her most gracious message, informing the House that her Majesty, having taken into consideration the services of John Lord Seaton, as Governor-general of Canada and Commander of the forces in that province, had determined to confer upon him some signal mark of her favour; and to assure her Majesty, that this House will most cheerfully concur in any measure necessary to accomplish that most important purpose."
The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, I entirely concur in the motion which has been made by the noble Viscount. My Lords, I will not weaken what the noble Viscount has said, in respect to my noble and gallant Friend, by adverting to the topics which the noble Viscount has enumerated with so much feeling and ability. I have had the honour of being connected in service; with my noble and gallant Friend at an; early period of his life, and I must say, that at all times, and under all circumstances, he gave that promise of prudence, of zeal, of devotion to the service of his country,; which he has since so nobly fulfilled. With respect, my Lords, to those services which he has rendered his country on the occasion mentioned by the noble viscount, which have led to the message we are now considering, I can only say that I entirely concur with the noble Viscount in all that he has said respecting the noble and gallant Lord, in resuming his post, and taking the command of her Majesty's troops, notwithstanding it was deemed expedient that the
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government should be placed in the hands of another. I entirely agree with the noble Viscount in wishing that such examples as that shown by the noble and gallant Lord may be always followed by those who are in her Majesty's service; but I must say that there never has been a brighter example than this manifested by the noble and gallant Lord, respecting which the noble Viscount has so strongly declared his approbation. I must say I derive the greatest satisfaction on hearing the intimation of her Majesty's gracious favour to the noble Lord, and her Majesty's approbation of the great services he has rendered his country. I concur, my Lords, most cordially in the course proposed by the noble Viscount, in order to enable her Majesty to complete her gracious intentions in making provision for the noble Lord to support those honours which have been conferred on him.
The Duke of Richmond—My Lords, having served under my noble and gallant Friend, I beg your Lordships to allow me to express the gratification I feel on the present occasion in concurring in the sentiments expressed by the noble Viscount at the head of the Government, and more particularly in what has been stated by the noble Duke with respect to my noble and gallant Friend. When I first heard of the rebellion breaking out in Canada, it was a great consolation to me to know that he who had commanded the 52d light infantry in the Peninsula, who had gained the good-will of the inhabitants of the country through which he passed—who had obtained the love and respect of the officers and soldiers whom he commanded —who administered justice to all with an equal measure —was now in the command of her Majesty's troops in Canada, and I had the highest confidence in him. I agree with the noble Viscount in what he has stated, in thinking that to my noble and gallant Friend is mainly to be attributed the tranquillity which followed. Having had the honour of serving under his command, I thought I was justified in addressing your Lordships, and I beg to say, that I have never been called upon to give n vote which I shall give with more satisfaction than this for a provision for Lord Seaton, who has a greater claim upon the country for his services than any man alive.
Motion agreed to, nemine conlradicenle.

METROPOLITAN POLICE COURTS.
House in committee on the Metropolitan Police Courts Bill.
On the first clause,
Lord Wynfordobjected to the attempt that was now made to supersede the magistracy of the counties near London by the appointment of stipendiary magistrates. In most parts of Surrey, and more particularly in Kent, with which he was well acquainted, there were on the bench in the towns in the neighbourhood of town, men calculated from their knowledge, as common or civil lawyers, to preside ably upon the bench. In this point of view he confessed he thought the appointment of paid magistrates, with clerks, courts, and court-keepers, at a very great expense to the county, was perfectly unnecessary. The duty of such a magistrate could not occupy more than two hours a day, for which he was to receive, as he was informed, 800 l. per annum. His greatest objection to the bill was, that it provided that when the unpaid county magistrates were sitting in the discharge of their duty, should one of those paid magistrates come upon the bench, instantly their jurisdiction ended, and the whole jurisdiction was confined to the stipendiary magistrate only. He thought such a provision derogatory to the magistracy, who must resent this attempt to degrade them in the eyes of the public. They, if the bill were to pass, would feel it their duty to, at least, absent themselves from all proceedings in which the paid magistrates might, in virtue of their office and appointment, interfere. He thought the proper line dividing the metropolitan district and the rural district was sufficiently designated by the bill establishing the Central Criminal Court. He should therefore propose that the jurisdiction of such magistrates should be co-extensive with the boundaries of the jurisdiction of the Central Criminal Court, and that no court having a paid magistrate should be erected outside the circuit of the present criminal court's jurisdiction, which embraced the county as far on the side of Kent as Dept-ford and Greenwich. By pushing this system further out from the metropolis, the criminals in the rural districts would be mixed with and imprisoned in the gaols of the metropolis, which must have a tendency to corrupt them, and teach even the younger classes a more perfect system of fraud and plunder than they ever could arrive at without such means of instruction. He perfectly understood, and so did
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others too, that this was only a feeler to try the pulse of the public, and that if this bill was suffered to pass, the system of paid magistracy would be extended far and wide, and the independent magistrates throughout the whole country would be totally superseded, an event which he could not contemplate but with regret and alarm. In order to carry the object he had in view, he should move that the second clause of the bill be altered, by substituting for the words in it "Metropolitan police district," the words "the limits of the jurisdiction of the Central Criminal Court," which alteration he thought would effect that part of the object he contemplated. He should also propose that at the end of the second section, the power of appointing magistrates be limited by the insertion of the words, "and further, that there be not appointed more than twenty-seven paid magistrates to perform the duties of the said courts."
The Marquess of Normanbysaid, he should certainly be opposed to any attempts thus to curtail the power given to the Crown by the bill of last year respecting the appointment of these suburban courts. The restriction was the less necessary, as there was already a provision in the bill of last year, giving the power to pay only twenty-seven such magistrates. He could not see the advantage that would be gained by the noble Lord's amendment, which substituted the words "limits of the jurisdiction of the Central Criminal Court," for the words "Metropolitan police district;" for in many instances the former was known to comprise places and towns distant fourteen miles from town or further. There was no danger, therefore, that if this bill were adopted, there would be any greater chance of the people in the rural districts being corrupted by mixing in these courts or in the gaols in town with metropolitan offenders, than already existed under the hill establishing the jurisdiction of the Central Criminal Court. It could not be fairly imputed to him, that he had given an invidious preference to the stipendiary over the county magistrates. That power, of which his noble and learned Friend complained, was given by the Police Bill of last year—namely, the power to act when sitting alone, which power could only be exercised now by two county magistrates. That power was now, upon the appearance of the police magistrates, virtually transferred to that functionary upon the bench. This had been

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determined on after due consideration and deliberation. Indeed, it was reckoned essential, in order to make the police effective; and, sooner than agree to a proposition which would impair the effectiveness of the police, he would prefer withdrawing the measure altogether, and let the bill drop.
Viscount Sydneyhoped a limit to the appointment of these courts, under the control of paid magistrates, would be fixed. The average number of cases inquired into by the magistracy in his own district was not more than 105 annually, for which the magistrate was to be paid at the enormously disproportionate rate of 800 l. a year.
The Lord Chancellorsaid the principal object of this bill was to fix what ought to be the construction put upon the bill passed last session on this subject, and to ascertain more precisely the limits of the jurisdiction then established for courts of this description.
Lord Wynfordrenewed his objection, stating, that he did not like to trust to the promisses of Ministers, nor permit the Government to get the wedge in so as to authorise a system of jobbing the magistracy throughout the country in a wholesale way hereafter.
The Duke of Wellingtonsuggested, that it might be better he should now report progress, and suffer his learned Friend to print these amendments, so as to enable himself and other noble Lords to ascertain what the amendments really were.
The Marquess of Normanbythought it desirable the bill should pass as soon as possible, in order to settle the point in doubt, whether the bill of last year sufficiently authorised the exercise of this jurisdiction by the magistrates under that bill. He should not hesitate to acquiesce in the proposition of the noble Duke. He moved that the chairman report progress.
House resumed.