Lords Sitting of 17 March 1840

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By Lord Seagrave, from Stroud, and another place, for an Alteration in the Po or laws.—By the Earl of Galloway, and Lord Redesdale, against the Grant to Maynooth College.—By Lords Fitzgerald, and the Earl of Galloway, against the Irish Municipal Bill.—By the Duke of Argyle, the Marquess of Londonderry, and the Earl of Galloway, from several places, for Non-Intrusion.

CHURCH OF SCOTLAND.—NON-INTRUSION.
The Earl of Gallowayrose to say, that not having been so fortunate as to be in the House during the conversation which took place on non-intrusion the preceding day, he begged to say a few words. He had learnt from the ordinary channels of information (he hoped, correctly), that a noble Earl (Aberdeen) had stated that he had received letters of remonstrance from various parts of Scotland, for having advised the Government to delay the settlement of the church question, and he explained that, so far from having advised, he had rather blamed the Government for the delay which had taken place, but that he had urged on her Majesty's Ministers, if they had thus far postponed the consideration of the subject, not to be induced to come to a rash and precipitate decision at last, which, instead of being accessory to, might be prejudicial to the final and proper settlement of the question. Now, it so happened that these observations fell from the noble Earl the same day that he had thought it his duty, in consequence of the representations which he had received from Scotland, to urge on the Government not to allow another month to pass without an endeavour to effect some satisfactory settlement. He did not say that the noble Earl's observations were intended as a reflection on him, but that, in point of time, they had followed immediately after his observations Wherefore, in his own defence, he wished to state some of the reasons which had induced him to urge the subject on the

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attention of Ministers. First, he remembered that the Government had had six month's for consideration, that time and more having elapsed since the collision between the church and the civil courts; nest, he remembered the conduct of the Government on the subject of church extension in Scotland; he remembered the professions made by Her Majesty's Ministers, the appointment of the commission of inquiry, the reports which were made, and how, after all, the matter had been staved off from month to month, and from year to year, until finally, having served its purpose—the purpose of the Government, but not of the people—it was abandoned. Then he remembered that the settlement of this question was the prayer of the bulk of the petitions which had been laid on their Lordships' table, many of which he had himself had the honour of presenting; and lastly he was of opinion that if this question was to be discussed in Parliament, it was very desirable the discussion should take place before the House should separate for the Easter recess. These reasons were his excuse for having urged the Government to take the subject in band. Nevertheless, his respect for the superior information and experience of the noble Earl (Aberdeen), his respect for his talents, his judgments, and his general position in that House, looking to him, white the Government neglected its duty, as the leader on this important Scotch question, had induced him to hold his peace, and silently and respectfully to acquiesce in his views. But now another month, had passed, and the Government were unprepared to say, not only what they would do, but whether they would do anything at all. Meanwhile, there were wars and rumours of wars; Scotland was rent by dissensions from end to end, and he regretted to add that some of the clergy, apparently forgetting their sacred office, had torn a leaf from the book of the Roman Catholic priesthood of Ireland, and agitation was going on in a form and spirit unworthy of those who were engaged in it. He did not say this of all the clergy; his respect was too great for that enlightened body; and he knew that many of them, even of the anti-intrusionists, who disapproved of the decisions of the civil courts, deplored the conduct of those brethren in the ministry to whom he alluded. But the peace of parishes had been disturbed, the feelings of amiable and excel-
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lent individuals had been wounded and lacerated, and dissension had been fomented between pastors and their flocks. He had been repeatedly requested again to urge the Government to endeavour to pacify the country; but he had abstained from doing so, partly because he believed his efforts would be useless, and partly because he did not feel himself competent to the task, which more properly belonged to the noble Lords near him. He would, therefore, sit down with the simple expression of his own conviction, that the longer this question remained unsettled, the more difficult it would become of solution and adjustment. The noble Earl then presented petitions against the intrusion of ministers, and praying their Lordships to take the law of patronage into consideration, from Kirkpatrick, Durham, Crossmichael, Whithorn, and Mid-Calder.
The Marquess of Lansdownesaid, he could not allow the observations of the noble Earl, or what might be implied from the language used by another noble Earl, to go forth without stating that neither the noble Earl who had just addressed their Lordships, nor the other noble Earl to whom allusion had been made, was justified in supposing that because the Government had delayed to bring forward a measure on this important subject, there had been any delay whatever in its consideration. So far from it, the fact was, that consideration was given to it at a very early period; and it was only the great importance of the questioned the very circumstances which the noble earl had stated, as to its difficulty, that had prevented the Government from bringing a measure forward. And, he must say, that he would much rather the Ministers incur the reproach, according to the expression of the noble Earl, of delay, than that of launching precipitately upon the question, without an opportunity of making themselves acquainted with all the opinions, feelings, and circumstances, that prevailed in Scotland with respect to it. He was convinced that if they took such a course, so far from allaying, it would materially aggravate those asperities of feeling on this subject which now unfortunately nately prevailed in Scotland. Having stated thus much, it was not his intention to offer any opinion on the subject, nor would he advert to the assertion of the noble Earl, that the Scotch clergy had followed up the principle and practice of

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the Roman Catholic Church on this occasion, because he could not do so without entering into a dicussion that could produce no benefit, and which had, therefore, be better deferred till the whole question came formally before their Lordships. His noble Friend (Lord Melbourne) had staled that he would immediately give notice when the Government were prepared to introduce a measure adapted to remedy the evils and inconveniences which the noble Earl had described. Then, alone, he conceived, could discussion be usefully prosecuted on the subject. Standing on that ground, he should abstain from remarking further on the observations of the noble Earl.
The Earl of Gallowaywas much pleased, that what he had said had elicited a more explicit declaration of the intentions of Government than had heretofore been given. He was, however, anxious to prevent a mistake going abroad with respect to what he had said relative to the Scotch Clergy, and which had been misunderstood by the noble Marquess. He was far from charging against the clergy of the Church of Scotland that which the noble Marquess appeared to suppose. On the contrary, he had specially stated, that he had the greatest respect for them generally; but he might add, that he knew, of his own knowledge, that some members of that Church had resorted to practices in the course of this dispute, which were very much like those adopted by the Roman Catholic priesthood.
The Earl of Aberdeensaid, the statement of the noble Marquess was so far satisfactory, because it appeared from it that Government would introduce a measure. [The Marquess of Lansdowne dissented.] Well, then, he supposed that he was mistaken. But, at any rate, he would suggest, that in taking ample time to consider any measure (if a measure were to be proposed) it would be right to keep in view a very important event with reference to the fate of such a measure—he alluded to the meeting, early in the month of May, of the General Assembly. It was of essential importance, if a measure on this subject were introduced, that it should be considered by Parliament before that meeting. He threw out this suggestion only to remind the noble Marquess that great inconvenience would be experienced, if a measure were introduced into
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Parliament, and left suspended until after that meeting took place.
The Marquess of Lansdownehad not stated that Government had decided that any measure would be introduced by them, but that if they decided to introduce one, ample notice should be given on the subject; and if not, that full opportunity should be given for the introduction of a measure by others.
Petitions laid on the table.

EXCHEQUER RECORDS.
Lord Mont eagle, in laying before the House, pursuant to address copies of all communications between the Treasury and the Controller of the Exchequer, on the subject of certain papers and documents removed from the vaults at Somerset-house to the office at Whitehall-yard, said, that none of the Exchequer records which had been destroyed by order of the late Controller of the Exchequer were of the least importance. They were all examined before they were destroyed, and those that were condemned were, he believed, utterly worthless. The main records of that department had, for a long time, been in a state of great dilapidation, and were kept in a building adjoining their Lordships' House, where they remained until certain alterations rendered their removal necessary. They had then been examined, and many of them had been placed before the public in a printed shape. Those that were destroyed were of a class that had been used as temporary records, and had formerly been sold as waste paper. That practice had been put an end to, and it was considered preferable to destroy the documents when they were no longer useful.
Lord Redesdalewas sorry that the papers were destroyed, because, although they might be of little value to the Controller of the Exchequer, many persons of an antiquarian turn would be desirous of possessing them at a higher price than that of waste paper. He conceived that there was a very proper and just ground for inquiry when documents were destroyed which might be connected with questions of property.
Lord Monteaglesaid, that before any one single paper was destroyed, a due examination was made by persons considered to be most competent to judge of their worth and value. Of those persons one had been in the public service for forty-

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two years, and others ten and twelve years. No papers had been destroyed, except under their authority; and it was deemed proper that they should be destroyed, lest they might fall into the hands of improper persons.
Papers ordered to be printed.