Lords Sitting of 2 March 1840

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By the Bishop of Exeter, from the Ilchester Board of Education, against any Church Discipline Bill.—By the Bishop of London, the Duke of Richmond, the Marquess of Bute, and the Earl of Zetland, from a great number of places, against the Intrusion of Ministers into Parishes without the consent of the Parishioners.—By the Earl of Rossie, from Perth, Dundee, and many other places, for the Total and Immediate Repeal of the Corn-laws.

CHURCH DISCIPLINE.
The Bishop of Exeterhad several petitions to present to their Lordships, on a subject which had excited much painful interest—he alluded to the subject of Church discipline. It was his misfortune to be opposed on that subject to the opinions of those whose judgment he revered, and whose characters he respected and esteemed; but, in presenting those petitions, he was authorised to state, that communications had taken place between the bishops, and he was rejoiced to say that, without a sacrifice of principle being made by any one, they were able to agree together, and to produce and promote, both before their Lordships and the other House of Parliament, such a measure as would, it was hoped, be satisfactory to the Church at large, and to their Lordships. It was not his intention to go into particulars, but he might be allowed to say, that already, steps had been taken to effect their common object, which he trusted would be attended with success. The right rev. Prelate then presented petitions from the clergy of the deanery of Chester, of Barnstaple, of Penrith, and several other places, praying that in any measure which might be introduced
800
for the improvement of Church discipline, care should be taken to preserve the ancient jurisdiction of the bishops in their respective diocese.
The Bishop of Londonconfirmed the statement of the right rev. Prelate, that a measure was in progress for the improvement of Church discipline. The only difficulty in the case had reference to certain legal points, on which the advice and assistance of the legal authorities in the House would be required.

CHURCH OF SCOTLAND—INTRUSION.
The Duke of Richmondpresented petitions against the intrusion of ministers on non-consenting parishes, from Inverness, and various other places in Scotland. The noble Duke said, he wished to ask the noble Viscount whether there was any probability of any measure being speedily laid before Parliament, to reconcile the parties who were at variance on this question? He believed that it was almost impossible to describe the feelings of excitement which now prevailed on this subject. All parties were agreed that some enactment was necessary, in order to settle the matter in dispute, and he hoped that, before long, Government would propose such a measure. The feelings of society in general were excited to such an extent on this question, that, if allowed to go on much further, it would be beyond the noble Viscount's power, and, he feared, beyond the power of Parliament to deal with the evil. He wished a measure to be introduced that would satisfy the moderate men of all parties; but, if that were not quickly done, the noble Viscount might find it next to impossible to satisfy any party.
Viscount Melbournewas hot ready to state that Government would be able speedily to introduce a measure on this subject, although they were as anxious to do so as the noble Duke. Looking to the interest and importance of the question in dispute, the noble Duke must see, that such a measure ought not to be introduced, without due and mature consideration.
The Earl of Haddingtonsaid, that he entirely concurred in opinion with the noble Duke, that nothing could be more desirable than the introduction of some measure which would, if possible, allay the present unhappy state of excitement which prevailed in Scotland. With respect

801
to the cause which had given birth to that state of excitement, he conceived that rather an incorrect view was entertained by many persons. In his opinion, that agitation arose from the conduct of the commissioners of the General Assembly, in suspending from the performance of all their duties, and taking from them the power of performing those duties, the whole of the clergy, who had determined' to obey the law of the land, as recognised by their Lordships. It did not originate in the interference of the courts; and they ought to extend protection to those who were willing to pay obedience to the law of the land. He knew that a very strong feeling prevailed on this subject, and something ought to be done, to put a period to such an unhappy state of things.
The Earl of Mintothought it was advisable not to go into the merits of the question until some measure connected with it came regularly before their Lordships.
The Earl of Gallowaysaid, he was sure his noble Friend did not wish to enter into the merits of the question. He believed that what his noble Friend said, and all the anxiety which he had manifested, arose from the great tardiness which Government had manifested in doing their duty.
Lord Kinnairdsaid, that in his opinion, Ministers were quite right in not acting precipitately on such a question.
The Earl of Aberdeendid not agree with his noble Friend (the Earl of Haddington) as to the cause in which the agitation, now prevalent in Scotland, originated.
Petitions laid on the table.

TRADE WITH SICILY.
Lord Lyndhurstrose to present to their Lordships a petition respecting the commercial arrangements of this country with Sicily, which petition more particularly referred to the sulphur trade carried on with that country. It was signed by several merchants of the city of London; and from communications which he had received, he had reason to expect a similar petition from certain merchants of Liverpool and of Glasgow; but from some unforeseen circumstances those petitions had not been received. The subject of this trade was one of very considerable importance, not only to the merchants who were immediately engaged in that branch of com-
802
merce, but to the manufacturing interests of this country. The noble Viscount opposite had observed, two or three nights ago, that he had reason to suppose that many statements would be made during the present Session of Parliament, with respect to the state of the commerce of this country. Whether that arose from, a consciousness on the part of the noble Viscount, that the commercial concerns of this country had not been sufficiently protected, he should not at present inquire; but he begged leave to say, with reference to these petitioners, that they had prepared their petition with no political or party views, but solely with the desire of obtaining compensation and redress for the losses and injuries they had sustained in consequence of transactions stated in the petition. Their Lordships were, no doubt, aware that, owing to modern discoveries in chemistry, the article of sulphur had become of very great importance in many of our principal manufactures. In the course of the eleven years which preceded the year 1837, the importation of the article had increased elevenfold. In 1826 we imported about 4,000 tons of sulphur, and by the year 1837, the importation had gradually increased to the enormous amount of 44,000 tons. From that statement their Lordships would be aware of the great and increasing importance of the trade in this article. Their Lordships might, perhaps, also be aware that the whole, or nearly the whole of the amount imported, was brought from the island of Sicily. It was found in other places; but it was produced in such large quantities in Sicily, and was so easily obtained there, that almost the whole of our supply was furnished by that country. In 1816 a commercial treaty was concluded between this country and Sicily, by the terms of which it was provided, that ample protection should be afforded to British subjects and British property; that British subjects should be allowed, without let or hindrance, to dispose of their property at their own freewill; that they should be treated, in all respects, as subjects of the most favoured nation, and that no duty, tax, or impost should be levied on their property, beyond those that were there levied from subjects of the most favoured nation. Such were the stipulations of that well-known treaty, on the faith of which, and from the reliance placed in it, the merchants of this country

803
had embarked property to a very large amount, in carrying on the sulphur trade of Sicily. They had taken leases of the mines of that island; they had established machinery at a great expense, for the purpose of increasing the supply; they had, in fact, created the trade in a great measure, and up to the year 1838, it was carried on most advantageously for the parties immediately concerned in it, and most advantageously, also, for the commercial interests of England. All went on well to the month of July in 1838, and then, for the first time, it was publicly announced by the Sicilian Government, that it had granted a monopoly of this important article to the French; not indeed to the French Government, nor generally to the French nation, but to a number of French adventurers. By the conditions on which the monopoly had been granted to those individuals—the mines not being the property of the Sicilian Government, but of private persons—the stipulations of the treaty to which he had referred, had been broken. By one of the clauses of the contract entered into with the monopolists, it was provided, that no greater quantity of sulphur than a certain amount specified, should be produced or exported from Sicily by the British or any other people. The object of this was quite obvious. How those persons had obtained such influence with the Neapolitan Government as to induce it to enter into stipulations of a kind so disadvantageous to our interests—and, he would take leave to add, on a just consideration of the case, so disadvantageous to the interests of the Neapolitans themselves—was more than he could tell; but they knew enough of the way in which transactions of this kind took place to be able to form some conjecture, and perhaps an accurate conjecture. But the advantage of the arrangement to which he had alluded, was manifest, for at that time they had imported into France an immense amount of sulphur, which they were selling at a loss, and in consequence of the limitation of the quantity exported, the rise of the price was so enormous as to convert the loss into a great gain, and that at the expense of British interests. This prohibition, however, was a direct infraction of one of the stipulations of the treaty he bad mentioned, because, under that, every British subject was to be allowed to dispose of his property without let or hind-
804
rance. Here, then, was a prohibition directly in the teeth of that stipulation. It was pretended that the regulation was passed for the general benefit of the trade; but that assertion could not be supported, for this reason, that those persons who were monopolists, were not bound by the limitation, having the power of exporting any quantity they thought proper, provided only, that one-third of the profit from the part exceeding the stipulated amount, should be paid to the Sicilian Government. They had, therefore, the power of pouring into the market any amount they chose, and regulating the price as they wished; the interests of their competitors, and among others, the subjects of this country, being completely sacrificed. This was not the only respect in which the grant of the monopoly was a direct infringement of the treaty. It was provided by the contract that no person should sell in the island any sulphur except to one of the contractors. There was an alternative indeed—that British subjects and others, might, if they thought proper, instead of selling to the contractors at the price limited by the contract, export for their own benefit and at their own instance, but if they did so, they must pay a duty amounting nearly to the first cost of the article, and twice as high as that at which the monopolists had a right to export the article themselves. Here then was an infringement of that article of the treaty with this country, which expressly provided that British subjects should pay no duties or imposts on their property, other than those which were paid by the subjects of the most favoured nation. These were direct infractions of the treaty; but the petitioners complained also, that in consequence of the conduct of the Neapolitan Government, they had sustained very grievous losses. In the course of trade, contracts were entered into for the supply of sulphur at a future period. The establishment of the monopoly was announced by public proclamation on the 1st of July, to come into operation on the 1st of August, leaving only the interval of one month. The consequence was, an immediate increase of the price of the article. All those British merchants, therefore, who had entered into contracts to furnish sulphur at a certain price, found, that it had risen to such an extent, that to complete them, would be to involve themselves in inevitable ruin. The conse-

805
quence was, that twenty-four British ships which had arrived for the purpose of loading with sulphur for this country, were obliged to return without their cargoes. The sulphur trade, which was of so much importance, both to Sicily and the interests of this country, had been entirely stopped. It was true that British subjects were still allowed to hold their property in Sicily; the mines were still worked, though he believed, at a loss; but the trade was substantially at an end. The price of sulphur in the English market was now double what it was at the end of 1837, and the manufacturers of this country were reduced to all sorts of expedients, while endeavouring to provide a cheaper substitute, in order to avoid paying the present exorbitant price of the imported article. Their Lordships would naturally suppose that the proceedings of the Neapolitan Government had raised a great outcry among the British residents in Sicily, and the Sicilians themselves, for the effect of them had been to throw an immense number of native labourers out of employment. He was told, that the feeling of indignation excited at the time, was so strong, that if a British ship of war had appeared off the coast, an end would at once have been put to the monopoly. But that was not the course which the British Ministers had thought it right to pursue. They had resorted to negotiation; and had sent out, he believed, a Mr. M'Gregor to carry out the negotiations. These had now been carried on for a period of eighteen months, and had produced no practical result. The monopoly still subsisted; the losses of British subjects still continued; the trade was stopped; and nothing effectual had been done to remove those evils. He had been informed that some treaty on the subject had been actually signed at the close of last yean Why that treaty had not been ratified, he had no means of ascertaining; but he was happy to see a noble Friend of his in his place, who was, he believed, during those negotiations, himself resident at Naples, who was then a member of her Majesty's Government, and who would, no doubt, be able to give a satisfactory explanation on the subject. The object of the petitioners was to call the attention of her Majesty's Government and their Lordships to this important subject. They felt that they had a right to protection; that they had a right to call on her Majesty's Government to see that justice
806
was done to them, and to insist that compensation should be obtained for the losses they had hitherto suffered, and redress for the future. It was with that view they requested him to present this petition, and he begged to move that it be read by the clerk at the table.
Viscount Melbournesaid, he agreed in all that the noble and learned Lord had said, as to the importance of the subject of this petition. The noble and learned Lord had stated the whole of the circumstances that had taken place, the noble Lord had referred to the amount of British, capital embarked in the trade, the obligations of the treaty by which the Government of the two Sicilies was bound to this country, and the transaction by which it had been violated, with a few inaccuracies in the latter part of his remarks, but otherwise with perfect correctness, with perfect justice, and without the least misstatement or exaggeration. The noble and learned Lord had observed that he (Viscount Melbourne) on a former occasion, said he anticipated that there would be many discussions in that House on commercial affairs in the course of the present session, and seemed to suppose that it arose from some consciousness of his that those interests had not been sufficiently attended to. The fact was, that that opinion arose, not from any shadowy apprehension of that nature, but from the motions that had been already brought forward, the notices which had been placed on the books, and the discussions which had already occurred in both Houses of Parliament. These were the grounds he went on, and not any shadowy or spectral feeling of the kind insinuated by the noble and learned Lord. The noble and learned Lord had adverted to the establishment of the sulphur monopoly, the nature of which had been so accurately explained, that it was unnecessary for him (Viscount Melbourne) to enter into the subject again, and had hinted that we might form a good idea of the sort of influence by which that privilege had been obtained from the court of Naples. That monopoly had been granted in favour of certain inhabitants of France, but he believed, that by whatever influence it had been obtained, it was not by the influence of the present ruler of France, or the Government which now reigned over that country. In the next place, the noble and learned Lord had stated—and that

807
was also the view which her Majesty's Government had always taken of this matter—that the monopoly was not now a subject of negotiation; that it was in itself a direct infraction of the treaty of 1816, and a complete violation of the two articles referred to by the noble and learned Lord. It was, therefore, not a matter about which we had now to treat or negociate, but a matter as to which we had a right to call on the Government of the two Sicilies for the fulfilment of the obligations into which it had entered, and by which it was bound. When the change was first known to be in agitation, it was strongly remonstrated against by the British Minister at Naples; when it was carried into effect it was remonstrated against; and at length, in August last, a verbal promise was given that the monopoly would be abolished. An engagement was made to that effect, and as that had not yet been complied with, it was unquestionably left to the Government of England to demand the fulfilment of the treaty, to do that which the noble and learned Lord very properly said they were bound to do, and to afford to its subjects and merchants who had embarked in this branch of commerce on the faith of the treaty that protection to which they had a right. The noble and learned Lord said they had resorted to negotiation, and that they had sent out Mr. M'Gregor to negociate with the Government of the two Sicilies. In the summer of last year it was understood that the Government of Naples was favourable to a new arrangement for carrying on the commercial intercourse between the two countries; that it was willing to renew the treaty of 1816, and enter into fresh stipulations, one basis of which, among others, was to be an entirely new arrangement of their tariff, of their import and export duties, and of the duties levied on the products of this country. Mr. M'Gregor was sent out merely for the purpose of ascertaining on the spot what was to be the reduction in the tariff, and of settling with the Neapolitan Government the changes to be made in the various duties. That was the sole object of Mr. M'Gregor's mission. Unquestionably that gentleman had, with the very best intentions, gone further, and had entered into the matters to which the noble and learned Lord had alluded; but from not having been instructed on that subject, from not having been authorised,
808
he concluded a treaty which, in the first place, was unsatisfactory, as making that a matter of treaty which Government contended ought not to be a matter of treaty, and also contained other provisions to which Government, on the best consideration, did not think it prudent to assent. That was the state of the case. Mr. M'Gregor was a man of great talent, of great abilities, of great experience, and had unquestionably acted with the best intentions; but he had undoubtedly done that which he was not authorised to do on the occasion, and which, because he was not fully in possession of the feelings of his own government, he did imperfectly. That was the state of affairs with reference to the negotiations; but unquestionably, it was now necessary to take decided measures on this subject. The strongest representations had been sent out, and the British Minister had been directed to state to the Government of Naples that we must insist on the fulfilment of the conditions of that treaty on which the petition and the observations just made by the noble and learned Lord were founded.
Lord Lyndhurstwished to recall to the recollection of the noble Viscount that eighteen months had now elapsed since this infraction of the treaty, which was said to be the subject of negotiation, had been proclaimed. He should like to know what had been done during that period to put an end to the general losses sustained by the British merchants. He was told that it amounted to 1,000 l. per day at the lowest estimate.
Viscount Melbourne: We have had a promise from the Neapolitan Government, and unquestionably it now rests with Government to insist on the fulfilment of that promise.
Lord Lyndhurstwished to ask the noble Viscount whether he did not know that the Neapolitan Government insisted on the continuance of the monopoly for six months further, dating from the 1st of January last.
Viscount Melbourne: No, I have never heard of such a condition.
Lord Lyndhurst: Six line-of-battle ships sent to Naples would settle the matter in a fortnight.
Adjourned.