Lords Sitting of 22 June 1840

MINUTES.
Bill. Read a second time:—Protestant Episcopal Church (Scotland).
Petitions presented. By Lord Hatherton, from Kinver, and Wetley Rocks (Staffordshire), against Travelling by Railways or Canals on the Sabbath-day.—By Viscount Strangford, from Hampton-upon-Thames, against further Grants to Maynooth College.

MR. O'CONNOR.
Lord Broughampresented a petition from Mr. Feargus O'Connor, to which he begged leave to call the attention of his noble Friend. The petitioner re-stated his former complaints as to the treatment which he had received
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in York Castle, particularly as to his having been prevented from seeing his legal adviser. He averred that his former statements were correct, which related to his treatment from the 21st of May up to the 1st of June, and stated, that any alteration which had taken place in his treatment had occurred since the last mentioned period. He complained, that the inquiry set on foot into the allegations made by him was not a just one, and that, considering his state of health, he ought not to have been removed to a distant prison. He (Lord Brougham) knew nothing whatever as to the correctness of these statements, but he felt it to be his duty to lay this petition, in which Mr. O'Connor complained of his unfortunate situation, before their Lordships, and thus to give his noble Friend an opportunity, as he then did, to give any explanation on the subject which he might think proper.
The Marquess of Normanbysaid, that the petitioner, in the first place, was under a complete misapprehension as to the nature of the inquiry that had been set on foot, in consequence of his representations. A gentleman had been sent down to inquire whether the magistrates had complied with the rules and regulations of the prison, or whether they had exceeded them. The other part of the inquiry was directed for his own information, to enable him to judge whether it would be proper for him to take steps to remove Mr. O'Connor from York Castle to another prison. As to the first point, it was found that the magistrates had not violated any of the rules or regulations of the prison in the case of Mr. O'Connor; and, as to the second, nothing appeared that called for his removal. On this point, he had endeavoured to acquire all the information that he possibly could, and on that information he had acted. He did not wish to enter at large into Mr. O'Connor's representations on this occasion, but he was bound to say, that, in his mind, the weight of the testimony of the magistrates preponderated on every point. So far from any undue labour being imposed on Mr. O'Connor, one of the prisoners was directed to attend to him, and that man complained to Mr. Crawford of the extra labour imposed on him in consequence. It was denied that Mr. O'Connor was compelled to perform menial offices. He volunteered to assist in cleaning the yard, but was requested not to do so, and after

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he had wetted his feet, he desisted. As to the refusal to allow his professional adviser to see him, that was not the fact. Orders were given, that his professional advisers should have access to him at all convenient times, and Mr. Crawford stated that the gentleman who was represented to be Mr. O'Connor's legal adviser, and who, it was alleged, was refused admission to him, told him that he did not want to see Mr. O'Connor on professional business. As to his accommodation, it was stated that Mr. O'Connor's cell was furnished with a chair, a table, and a carpet. He was not called on to perform any menial office. He was locked up, and retired to rest every night at 9 o'clock, and remained thus till 7 in the morning. Finally, he was allowed newspapers and other publications. There was another point, with respect to which Mr. O'Connor seemed to labour under great misapprehension. His being sent to York Castle, was not the act of the Secretary of State, but of the judges. They considered which was the most proper place of confinement for Mr. O'Connor, and they selected York Castle. An objection was made to that prison, and an inquiry relative to it was instituted, the result of which was, that it was declared to be a very proper place. Application was afterwards made, stating that Mr. O'Connor could not be removed immediately without great danger to his life; and he had directed that Mr. O'Connor should not be removed until inquiry was made into the actual state of his health. The responsibility rested with the Marshal of the Queen's Bench to carry the sentence of the law into effect; and he exercised his discretion, after a communication with the Home-office, in sending Mr. O'Connor away. He believed, that, during the journey, Mr. O'Connor never complained of ill-health. He did not mean to speak lightly of the painfulness of Mr. O'Connor's situation; but he believed, that under all the circumstances the utmost indulgence had been given to him during his confinement.
Lord Broughamsaid, it was true that the Secretary of State had nothing at all to do with sending Mr. O'Connor, in the first instance, to York Castle. But Mr. O'Connor complained, that the application which he afterwards made to the Home-office to be removed from that prison, was refused. With respect to being debarred from seeing his legal adviser, the
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petitioner positively asserted the fact, and flatly contradicted the statement on the other side.
The Marquess of Normanbysaid, Mr. Crawford's statement was, that he was told that Mr. Clarkson, who was described as the professional adviser of Mr. O'Connor, wished to see him; but, on inquiry, he found that it was not on professional business. He was convinced that Mr. O'Connor's professional adviser was not refused admission to him, because strict orders were given that his friends and relations should be admitted at proper and convenient times, and, above all, that his professional adviser should have easy and ready access to him.
Petition laid on the table.

NEW SOUTH WALES.
The Bishop of Exeter,having presented a petition from the Archdeaconry of Cornwall, praying for church extension, more especially in Australia, trusted that he should not have occasion to occupy their Lordships' attention long upon a subject which he should not have mentioned at all, but for something which had occurred during the discussion upon a most rev. Prelate's motion respecting transportation, when he (the Bishop of Exeter) said something in justification of this colony, which had been a good deal maligned by strong statements. He observed, upon that occasion, that it was a sufficiently great hardship upon this colony not to have secured the advantages to be derived from free emigration, according to the distinct pledge of the Government. [The Marquess of Lansdowne: No such pledge has been given.] He differed from the noble Marquess as to the fact, and would presently show that a distinct pledge had been given. The noble Marquess had stated, upon the occasion to which he referred, that the Government wished to employ all the funds derived from the sale of the colonial lands for the purpose of promoting free emigration; but, so strong an indisposition existed amongst the colonists to pay, not the new, but the old, expenses of the colony, that the Government had found it necessary to allocate, to the liquidation of them, funds which, under different circumstances, would have been applicable to emigration. The colony of New South Wales had originally been established, as their Lordships knew, as a penal settlement The

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only settlers were the military and civil officers, who had accompanied the convicts, and taken their families with them, having been induced to settle by those grants of land which were successively made, with other considerations. Matters went on thus for several years. At length, in the year 1831, when the noble Earl (Ripon) was Secretary for the Colonies, anxiously consulting for the best interests of this district, he directed that the proceeds of the sales of land should form no part of the annual income of the colony, but should be considered as capital. A paper had been laid before the other House of Parliament, in 1837, by Sir George Grey, in which it was distinctly stated, that "the funds derived from the sale of Crown lands should be looked on as capital, not as annual income." In 1838, a different process was introduced, and it was no longer a question whether the whole produce of the sale of the Crown lands should be devoted to the purpose of free emigration, but to prevent very large defalcations in the revenue, to the extent, as he was informed, of very nearly 400,000 l.. To ascertain the exact amount would be one of the objects of his motion. In that same year, a report of a committee of the Legislative Council of the colony contained the following passage:—
"Your Committee trust it will not be deemed irrelevant to state their opinion of the justice as well as the policy of applying the proceeds of the Crown lands exclusively to the introduction of a moral and industrious class of inhabitants. The first emigrants were induced to embark their fortunes in this distant colony, under the promise of receiving free grants of land, and in the confidence that the same policy would be continued as the best means of settling the country. If it has since been deemed expedient to sell the lands in lieu of granting them, as before, it is considered by the inhabitants merely as the conversion of capital into another form, and that the proceeds of the sale of land should still be applied to the same purposes as the land itself. If there be any justice in this argument it derives force from the circumstance that this colony is made the receptacle for the outcasts of the United Kingdom, and is consequently loaded with a vast disproportion of immoral people. That the colonists have derived many advantages from the transportation of convicts, cannot be denied; but the system has brought with it a long train of moral evils, which can only be counteracted by an extensive introduction of free and virtuous inhabitants; and the only means upon which the colonists can safely rely for accomplishing this
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vital object, is the revenue for the sale of lands. It is, for these reasons, that your Committee are anxious to record their opinions, as well as that of the whole community of the colony, that the funds arising from the sale of lands should be appropriated exclusively to the purpose of introducing a moral and industrious population; that they consider this appropriation alike indispensable to the present interests, and the future prosperity and character of the colony; and that they regard the opinion expressed by the Secretary of the Colonies, in 1831, and approved by the Lords of the Treasury, in the light of a pledge by his Majesty's Government that the Crown lands of the colony shall be held sacred to the promotion of emigration."
The committee constituted, perhaps, the most important body in the colony. They were nominated by the Crown, held high offices, were many of them natives of this country, in some cases were not at all connected with land, and their statements might, therefore, be looked upon as impartial. When the report of the committee reached England, Lord Glenelg directed that it should be communicated to the Treasury; and a letter was subsequently forwarded from the Treasury, showing that an application had been made of a portion of the funds, in accordance with the wishes of Lord Glenelg. Upon the 18th September, 1836, Lord Glenelg wrote as follows:—
"Referring to the concluding paragraph of the report of the committee of the Legislative Council, in which they strongly urge the application of the whole of the revenues arising from the sale of Crown lands to the promotion of emigration, I am of opinion that the funds so derived cannot be more properly or beneficially appropriated than in the advancement of this object; and I am therefore prepared to sanction the appropriation of as large a portion of them as may be required for emigration. With this view, I have to request that you will, at the end of every year, transmit to me a statement of the revenue derived from the sale of crown lands, and also of the disbursements made from the same source in furtherance of emigration; and I would recommend that no portion of such revenue should, on any account, be devoted to other purposes, until this primary object has been sufficiently provided for."
In a subsequent despatch from Lord Glenelg to Sir Richard Bourke, though it was now said there had been no pledge, let them hear what the Secretary for the Colonies, of that period, said. The despatch was dated March 23, 1837. After desiring an annual estimate of the probable fund likely to be available from the

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sale of crown land within the colony, it proceeds—
"You will consider yourself at liberty to appropriate one-third of this sum to the payment of bounties on emigrants introduced by private settlers on the terms of the Government notice of the 28th of October, 1835; and the remaining two-thirds will be expended under the directions of the chief agent for emigration in this country."
Here was, he contended, a distinct promise and pledge on the part of the Government at home. In August, 1836, the committee of the House of Commons on the disposal of lands in the British colonies, recommended that the principle laid down by Lord Ripon's regulation, expressed in the above extract, should be affirmed by an act of Parliament. But the then Undersecretary of State for the Colonies demanded to know
"What greater security would there be in the colonies from a law, than from a regulation binding on a colonial governor."
He thought that he had now adduced the clearest possible evidence of the existence of a pledge. The colonists were not disposed to grumble at reasonable charges connected with their administration, though against other items, such as those for police and gaols, which were required by the transportation system, they had strongly protested as being payable of right by the parent country. In November, 1839, a committee of the Legislative Council had strongly stated, that these expenses ought to be borne by the Government at home. But the complaints ended here; for he was assured that the charges for the administration of justice, which, in 1838, amounted to 80,000 l., had been paid without a murmur—80,000 l. for this purpose in a colony, which contained only 70,000 inhabitants! This was about 1l. 3s. per head; while the average charge borne by each inhabitant of the United Kingdom for the administration of justice, army, navy, ordnance, and every other department necessary for the maintenance of the honour and security of the country, was only 14 s. 2d. per head, being something less than two-thirds of what was paid by the inhabitants of New South Wales for the single item of the administration of justice. Did their Lordships know how many convicts had been sent out to that country, since its first establishment as a penal colony? No fewer than 110,000. If these persons had been subjected to
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secondary punishment at home, they could not have cost the country less than 100 l. per head. 11,000,000 l. had thus been saved to the country, the only deduction being the expense of carrying the convicts out. It was to be recollected, that this was one of the circumstances by which many people had been induced to settle in the colony, and expended not their money only but themselves. Among them there were many men of great respectability, some connected with their Lordships, who found themselves now without labourers to watch their sheep and perform other menial offices, by which gentlemen at home would consider themselves degraded, but which he trusted that those gentlemen had too much strength of mind to consider a degradation. Since 1831, 800,000 l—probably more—had been expended by capitalists from this country; but, since 1835, the Government had abstained from allocating to the purposes of free emigration any portion of the funds which they had pledged themselves so to allocate. He was informed, that during the present year not a single ship had been sent out. And, at the very time when the Government put an end to transportation, not the slightest provision had been made to provide free labourers. Had the 400,000 l., which had been diverted from its proper application, received its just direction, 25,000 free labourers would have been already added to the population of the colony. But this was a far larger question than might at first be supposed. Persons were in the habit of considering this colony, although a flourishing one, as only still in its infancy; but he was astonished to find the extent to which the manufactures of this country were introduced into New South Wales. By a return which he held in his hand, he found the declared value of the exports to New South Wales, in 1840, was not less than 1,173,440 l. That was no trifling amount; and it was, in fact, more than double what was exported from England to Sweden, Norway, Denmark, or Prussia. In fact, there was no market in any country in the world, which, in proportion to its population, required so large a portion of our manufactures as New South Wales. The exports from this country to New South Wales exceeded by 1–20th those to Belgium, and by 1–10th also those to Portugal, while they almost equalled the amount of our exports to China, and were only 1–4th less than those

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to Russia. He would now compare the exports to New South Wales with those to another and most interesting colony—he alluded to Canada. All the British North American colonies required British manufactured goods to the amount of 1,990,000 l., while New South Wales alone, as he had before stated, required nearly 1,200,000 l.. In Canada, the population amounted to 1,500,000,and the exports to the whole of British North America amounted to only 1l. a head. The population of New South Wales, on the contrary, was only 110,000, so that the exports to that colony exceeded 10 l. a-head. Was such a colony, he would ask, to be trifled with? He merely asked for justice, but did not common policy dictate that the condition of a colony requiring such an amount of our manufactures should be favourably considered by the Government? He was convinced, that unless the grievous injustice which he had attempted to expose to their Lordships, was put an end to, it would be impossible for the colonists not to feel strong indignation against the home Government, and it would require a large share of patriotism and virtue, if their complaints were not attended to, if they did not strive to shake off what they would feel to be the yoke of England as soon as possible. In addition to what he had already stated to their Lordships, he was informed that a new charge had been recently fixed upon the colonists of New South Wales. He was assured, that the charge of New Zealand had been fixed upon the colonists of New South Wales. That charge might not be great in amount, but he could not see why it should be fixed upon New South Wales. He was sorry for having trespassed so long upon their Lordships' valuable time, but the subject was one in which he was sure their Lordships would sympathize. The right rev. Prelate concluded by moving for returns relative to free emigration to New South Wales.
The Marquess of Lansdownerose, he said, for the purpose of troubling their Lordships with a few observations, because the right rev. Prelate, in giving notice of this motion, had addressed himself particularly to him. The right rev. Prelate was fully entitled to do so, having expressed, as he had done, opinions with respect to emigration—opinions that he did not at all retract, because it was, and still continued to be his opinion, that with
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Government it was a very important duty to attend to emigration; but more particularly a duty, considering the events that had befallen this country, and especially with reference to that colony which was the object of the present motion of the right rev. Prelate. Emigration was at all times, and in all states of society, a feature in the social condition of a country, which a government was bound to attend to, but which a government in this country was bound beyond all others to keep in view, consisting, as it did, more than any other country, of a great manufacturing population, subject to all the fluctuations that were incidental to the condition of a manufacturing population, and by its commercial interests connected with the remotest parts of the globe, and by a right of settlement or of conquest, governing a large portion of the south, and therefore peculiarly qualified to carry into effect that system of emigration, which if the Government did not provide, at least it should encourage and protect. They came then to the application of these general principles to the colony of New South Wales. Although he was not prepared to contend, that emigration should be raised by artificial means—forced as if it were by a hot-bed—but should be left to the natural operation of events arising from natural causes, and which would induce large bodies of persons, under the protection of Government, to emigrate to those regions where there was a demand for their employment—for their skill and labour—though such a natural course of events would lead to the most favourable system of emigration that was ever seen in the progress of the world, yet he was ready to admit, that with respect to New Holland, a reason did exist for interference on the part of the Government, and he did contend that was an interference which had been wisely and properly begun by his noble Friend whom he saw opposite, and who occupied the situation of Colonial Secretary in 1830, and that had since been prosecuted by each succeeding Colonial Government, and the benefits derived from which it would surprise their Lordships to hear. The details which he had to state upon this important subject he was sure would not be uninteresting to their Lordships. He would first remove a fallacy which appeared to he at the bottom of the observations of the right rev. Prelate, He wished to remove the idea of

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anything like a pledge having been given to the colony of New Holland, that the whole produce of the land revenue of the country should through all time be applied to the emigration of persons from this country. He must call their Lordships' attention to the particular expressions which were supposed to be the foundations of that pledge, and to the particular circumstances connected with the state of the revenue under which those expressions were used. Before the year 1831 emigration of free labour to the colony was not promoted. Down to the year 1827, the custom of the colony was, to transmit all its revenue to the English treasury in the lump, and the English treasury provided for the establishment of the colony. In that year, as the colony gradually advanced in importance, a more systematic plan of Government was observed, and the salaries and establishments of the colony were paid in New Holland. In the year 1831, the year in which the supposed pledge was stated to have been given, the Government of that day and in particular his noble Friend opposite (the Earl of Ripon) who filled the Colonial Department, had his attention directed to the importance of encouraging emigration, and of adopting a different system with regard to the allocation of land in the colony, which up to that time had been freely granted. The Government thought, and the wisdom of the opinion had been confirmed by subsequent experience, that it would be much more beneficially managed by a regulated and graduated sale of land constantly taking place in the colony, thereby increasing its resources, and providing in the most effectual manner for the use and cultivation of the land. Under those circumstances his noble Friend, having had his attention particularly called to an estimate which represented the amount likely to arise from the sale of land to be about 10,000 l. a year, was induced, in order to avert the alarming consequences which were threatened in the colony by the deficiency of females, to give particular encouragement to the emigration of females to that settlement. His noble Friend with this view suggested that so much of the territorial revenue of the Australian colony as arose from the sale of lands should be applied to the assistance of female emigrants. But he did not conceive that his noble Friend could have intended, in stating that opi-
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nion, to bind himself and every Government succeeding him, that whatever might be the circumstances or increased amount of the land revenue, it should in all cases and for all times be so applied. He believed that it was not intended by his noble Friend, and it certainly was not in the contemplation of the Government, because his noble Friend could not have done it without the authority of the Treasury. In answer to the representation which his noble Friend made to the Treasury on the subject, Mr. Stuart, the secretary, addressing Lord Howick, said,
"I am commanded to acquaint you that my Lords entirely concur in the importance which his Lordship attaches to the increase of females in New South Wales. They approve of his Lordship's proposal to apply the produce of the sale of lands in the colony for the present to the encouragement of the emigration of females to the colony."
It was obvious that by the use of the words "for the present," the Treasury wished to avoid committing themselves for any long time with regard to a colony of which the circumstances were changing from year to year. The system of sale answered beyond the expectations of those who encouraged it, and who calculated that the sale of lands would yield a revenue of 10,000 l. a-year. The first year the amount was 12,0002., and the last year of which there was an account it had risen to 120,000 l. or 130,000 l.. No decision of the Government, founded on a revenue of 10,000 l. a year, could have been intended a perpetual pledge that, no matter how great might be the increase of that revenue, it was still to be applied exclusively to emigration. It might have suited the purposes of some persons in the colony to assume that such was the intention of Government. Lord Glenelg, in entering on the subject, had only sanctioned the appropriation of "so large a portion of the land revenue as might be required for emigration." The right rev. Prelate complained of certain charges being unjustly thrown upon the colony. Without stating any general principles as to the mode in which the expenditure of colonies should be regulated, he might observe that in some few cases, as where colonies were held only as military stations, it might be incumbent on the mother country to bear the whole expense of their establishments; but in the great majority of colonies, and particularly in

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those which developed resources of their own—which possessed a great extent of territory, and had a flourishing agriculture and commerce, it was fair that they should bear the expenses of their own internal establishments, and that they should be indebted to the mother country only for naval and military protection. It was true that a great part of the expense of gaols which had been imposed on the colony arose out of the system of transportation which had been carried on for the benefit of the mother country. But, although that system was liable to great objection on moral grounds, it contributed greatly to the material prosperity of the colony. No charge had been imposed on the colony beyond what the police and gaols indispensably required, and the revenue had increased by 40,000 l.. more than the increase in the expense of police and gaols. Their Lordships were not to suppose that emigration had not flourished under the rules which had been laid down by the Government. In the beginning, when the emigration of free labour was encouraged by his noble Friend, the number of emigrants was 800, and under the system which the right rev. Prelate described as depriving the colony of New South Wales of the system of free importation of labour, the number had increased so much, that within the last three or four years the average was 4,500 annually, independently of those introduced by bounty. In the course of the last two years the sum expended in sending emigrants to New South Wales was even 30,000 l. or 40,000 l. more than the whole of the land revenue during the same period. The expenditure to promote emigration in the years 1838 and 1839 was 260,000 l.; whereas the whole produce of the land revenue in the two years was only 220,000 l. Besides the emigration from this country, facilities were afforded to the local Government of New South Wales to bring persons in by bounty. Thus, besides the constant stream of emigration of free labour, there was the additional stream of emigration provided for by bounty by New South Wales itself. At the present moment authority was granted to the Government of New South Wales to go to any extent to which they could go—after providing for internal Government, for the salaries of public officers, and the expenses of police and gaols, in the way of applying the land revenue by means of
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bounty to the importation of labour. The right rev. Prelate had referred to what he appeared to consider a stoppage in the emigration; but, in fact, there was no abandonment of that system of sending out free labour, which he trusted would be the constant policy of the Government. The government of New South Wales had availed itself of the power to apply the land revenue in the way of bounties to a much greater extent than had been anticipated, and it did not appear safe to send out any more free emigrants until it was known to what extent this emigration under the bounties had taken place. It was a system which had grown up under the other, and might, perhaps, ultimately be found preferable. Meanwhile, the emigration had increased in quantity and improved in quality, a matter by no means indifferent to the colony. It had been the custom to send out too many small children. The proportion of children under seven years of age sent out in former years was 34 per cent., but last year it had been reduced 11½ percent. This showed a considerable improvement in the quality of the population sent out. Formerly, too, the mortality in the ships had been considerable, but from the care be stowed in providing ship surgeons, and. inspecting the condition of the passengers, the mortality had been reduced from five per cent, to two per cent. He subscribed to all that the right rev. Prelate said of the growing importance of the colony to this country. He believed it deserving of the constant and favourable attention of this country, but he did not believe it inconsistent with the welfare of the colony, or inconsistent with its relations with this country, to require that the colony should maintain its own establishments. He should be glad to consent to the production of every paper connected with the subject up to the last moment.
The Earl of Riponthought that the production of those papers, whether they established a charge against the administration of those funds, or afforded an explanation of the circumstances in which the interests of the colony were placed, would be very useful to their Lordships. He fully subscribed to everything that had been stated respecting the value and importance of the colony, and the necessity there was of constant vigilance on the part of the Government and of Parliament to the promotion of its interests. He would

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now state how far he could have been understood as having given a pledge respecting the application of those funds, which could be held to be a breach of faith at any future time, if any portion of them were diverted from the object he had in view. In more than one communication with the Government, he had thought it a wise principle to lay down, that when land in our colonies was only to be obtained by purchase, the proceeds of the sale should be applied to the introduction of emigrants, at least where it was practical to any great extent. That principle, however, had only been applied to New South Wales. In Canada, in the years 1825 and 1826, a large tract of land had been sold to a company, but there was no stipulation on the part of the Government that any portion of the proceeds should be applied to emigration or any local purposes, such as roads, bridges, and canals; and in point of fact those proceeds had been made use of for the current expenses of the colony. In 1831, the time this question arose, a commission was appointed within the walls of the Secretary of State's office for the purpose of considering how emigration should be best promoted. That commission suggested, that it would be desirable to allocate the proceeds of land sales in New South Wales to the promotion of emigration. At first he had considerable doubts upon the expediency of adopting that plan to the fullest extent, and upon a suggestion to the Treasury, it was decided that the plan should be first tried by the introduction into the colony of female emigrants, an object which he had thought of paramount importance, and without which the application of a larger sum for the emigration of male emigrants would only have aggravated the evil that existed. He had, then, no reason to suppose, from any information he was possessed of, that the value of the land would in the short space of two or three years have so rapidly increased as to amount, in some cases, to upwards of 120,000 l. Undoubtedly, if he could have supposed that it would have amounted so soon to that sum, he should have hesitated in saying anything that could be construed into a pledge, that the whole amount of the proceeds should be applied to emigration. There were two things to be considered in viewing the question:—it was an advantage to the mother country to get rid of her surplus population,
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but it was likewise an advantage to the colony to receive so much labour. That being the case, he should certainly have doubted whether it would have been judicious to apply such a sum as 120,000 l. to emigration alone so soon after the system had been established. Consequently, all he could be supposed to have meant as a pledge for the future, was the application of the proceeds of the land sales upon the principle of that limited scale to which only they might have been expected at that early stage to have reached. The Treasury were not so sanguine as he had been, and were less disposed to push that principle than he had shown himself to be in his communications with them and the Governor of the colony. They acquiesced, however, and that principle was carried into effect for several years. It had only recently come to his knowledge that it had become expedient a few years ago to apply a portion of those funds to the general expenses of the colony, and that it was thought advisable that the colony ought to provide the whole expense of its police and gaols. That was a point which he considered liable to doubt. It was no act of the colony to bring into it those persons who required to be sent to gaols, or to be watched by the police, it was the act of the mother country. He thought that the fairest way would be to divide the expense; because, while the mother country got rid of persons whom it was desirable to send out of the country, the colony derived great advantage from the labour which those persons afforded to the free colonists. Political economists of the present day asserted that colonies could not be established except by slave labour, and that the labour of those persons was equal to slave labour. Without meaning to go to that extent, he certainly thought that this forced labour was of great use to a colony. Such, he presumed, had been the reasons for applying the surplus of land sales to the general purposes of the colony of New South Wales daring the last four or five years, or whatever time it might be. Listening to the right rev. Prelate, he would have supposed that emigration had altogether ceased of late. Now, it appeared, that in 1838 108,000 l. had been applied to emigration, whereas the receipts of the Crown lands did not exceed 31,000 l. A similar sum had been, he understood, expended in 1839, so that during the last two years the principle

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laid down in his dispatches had been acted upon. With regard to the pledge alluded to by the right rev. Prelate, he must say, that it could not be considered possible that the Government of the Crown could give a pledge upon matters of this kind, which should at all times, and under all circumstances, be binding. If he could have supposed at the time that by laying down that principle he was tying up the hands of his successors, he should have hesitated and declined such responsibility. He quite agreed, that the principle of emigration was one which ought not to be lost sight of, and he rejoiced to think that for the last few years it had not been lost sight of.
The Bishop of Exeterreplied. The noble Marquess had stated, that the Government had exceeded its means with respect to emigration, and that it was, therefore, high time to tie up their hands. It would also appear from the statement of the noble Marquess, that the importation of labour was carried to such an extent, that the colony was already saturated with it. What was the opinion of Mr. M'Arthur, as found in the Report on Emigration in 1834? It was this:—
"So great is the demand for labour, that a very large portion of those imported appear to be corrupted, as it were, by the competition to obtain their services, and the sudden change of circumstances in which they find themselves placed. In proof of the unexampled scarcity of labourers, I have at various periods during the last six months inserted advertisements in the newspapers for labourers to perform work by the piece, and that hitherto I have not had one application in consequence of them. I am confident, that in former years, a similar advertisement would have brought to me as many men as we wished to employ."
The right rev. Prelate concluded by expressing his satisfaction that no difficulty was thrown in the way of granting the papers.
The return was ordered.