Lords Sitting of 3 July 1840

MINUTES.
Bills. Received the Royal Assent:—Sugar Duties; Timber Duties; Glass Duties; Tobacco Regulations; Poor Clergy Maintenance; Prisons; Frivolous Suits; Colonial Passengers; Rated Inhabitants Evidence; and Vagrants Removal.—Read a first time:—Caledonian Canal.—Read a third time: —Masters in Chancery.

CHURCH OF SCOTLAND.
The Earl of Roseberyhad to present to their Lordships a petition from the parishioners of Marnock, approving of the conduct of the General Assembly in the case of the suspension of the seven ministers of the Presbytery of Strathbogie. The petition, went much into detail, he would content himself with stating the substance of it. The petitioners disapproved of the conduct of the seven ministers of Strathbogie in not obeying the directions of the commission of the General Assembly, their ecclesiastical superiors; and they applauded the conduct of the General Assembly in supporting the jurisdiction and the liberties of the Church against the intrusion of objectionable ministers. They earnestly trusted and hoped that the Church of Scotland would not suffer from the attempts of any of her own office-bearers to set at defiance her just authority, and overbear the religious privileges and conscientious feelings of her people, and they prayed that their Lordships would adopt such measures as may seem best for reconciling the differences which have occurred between the civil and the ecclesias-
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tical courts, and enabling the Church to give effect to the principles of her constitution relative to the settlement of ministers.
The Earl of Aberdeensaid, that the prayer of this petition called upon their Lordships to adopt some measure to reconcile the differences between the civil and ecclesiastical courts; but the petition itself was manifestly directed against the solemnly delivered judgment of their Lordships' House. The noble Earl had given no opinion on that judgment, and, as he had said nothing against it, he was warranted in concluding that the noble Earl coincided in its justice. It was very proper that the petitioners should pray, that an end should be put to the present state of things with respect to this question; but he must observe, that neither this year nor last year had any petitions been received on the subject from the General Assembly. No: the petition then before their Lordships stated, "That the Church was engaged in a negotiation for the settlement of the whole matter in dispute." In the course of that negotiation, it might be attempted to impose terms which could not be acceded to. The Assembly did not come before their Lordships as they ought to do, but they came before their Lordships as a party negociating with the Legislature for a satisfactory settlement of this question. The only complaint made against the seven ministers mentioned in the petition was, that they had obeyed the law. No human wisdom or ingenuity could devise any other charge against them. A decree was pronounced by a competent tribunal, to which they were obliged to yield obedience, otherwise they would have been liable to an action for damages. Their obedience to that decree was the whole matter of complaint urged by the petitioners against these ministers who, if they had disobeyed the law, would have been exposed to a legal proceeding.
Petition laid on the table.

POLITICAL PRISONERS.
Lord Broughamhad to present a petition to which he wished to call the particular attention of the noble Secretary for the Home Department, as it contained a very serous complaint of ill-usage in one of her Majesty's prisons. The noble and learned Lord read an extract from the petition which stated that:—
"Joseph Crabtree, late of Barnsley, in the

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West Riding of the county of York, and now a prisoner in Wakefield House of Correction, was tried at the Yorkshire Lent Assizes, 1840, and convicted of attending an illegal meeting, which was held at Barnsley on the 16th of July, 1839, and sentenced to two years' imprisonment in Wakefield House of Correction, subject to the most severe discipline; that your petitioner is a man of very bad health; he has been afflicted with a disease of the liver more than six years, and is at present very ill, not only of that complaint, but is likewise labouring under a pulmonary affection, which he feels assured must prove fatal if some change be not made in his treatment. He is locked up in his sleeping cell at six o'clock at night, a room about eight feet by six, where he must not walk about, or make the least noise whatever, but remain in perfect silence, till he is let out at six o'clock in the morning, at which hour he is taken into the day-room, and placed among the convicted misdemeanants, and he must there sit on a form with his face in one particular direction, in order that the officers may see the whole of the face; he must sit there until nearly seven o'clock in the evening, when he is again locked up in the sleeping cell. It is entirely close confinement; he cannot walk out into a yard, unless when sick, and then an officer is appointed to take a number of sick prisoners, and move them round a small yard about twenty minutes; this may be allowed twice or three times a week. On pain of being placed in dark solitary confinement for three days, to be allowed no more than half a pound of bread and cold water per day: he must not hang down his head so that his face cannot be clearly seen by the officers; he must not speak under any circumstances to any other prisoner; he must not stoop down to take any thing from the ground; he must not turn his head any way; he must not stand up; he must not laugh or smile, or make a motion with his lips or his hands to another prisoner; he must not look a prisoner in the face. If he want to attend the call of nature, he must put his cap on, and wait till called by one of the officers, which will sometimes lie an hour and a half, there are so many in the room." The petitioner prayed, that their Lordships would be pleased to make intercession for mercy to be extended to him, "in order that he may be saved from certain death."
This petition had been sent to him by a very respectable individual, and, though he could scarcely believe the statements, yet he felt it to be his duty to present the petition.
The Marquess of Normanbywould immediately make inquiries into the truth of the statements, but he was of opinion that they were greatly exaggerated.
Petition laid on the table.

HEALTH OF TOWNS—(SCOTLAND).
The Earl of Haddingtonwished to put a question to the noble Marquess opposite. He understood, from the public newspapers, that the Poor-law Commissioners had sent forth instructions for an inquiry, similar to that which had been set on foot in this country, as to the cause of fevers and contagious disorders amongst the poorer classes in Scotland, and the best mode of prevention. There could be-but one opinion on the mind of every man of humanity as to the propriety of instituting inquiries of this kind. He did not, however, think the Poor-law Commissioners the proper parties to whom such an inquiry should be intrusted. Besides, he was apprehensive that the appointment of inspectors, by the Poor-law Commissioners, would lead the people to fear that an attempt was about to be made to tamper with the system which at present prevailed in Scotland with reference to the care of the poor. The inspectors were instructed to inquire into the rents paid by the poorer clashes, the amount of wages they received, the ratio of expenditure, the capability of maintenance, &c. Now, he thought it would be better for those persons to confine their inquiries simply to the prevalence of disease, and the causes from which it was supposed to arise. He believed, if such questions were demanded, very few persons, clergymen or others, would be found willing to answer them. He should, therefore, ask whether such instructions as he referred to had been sent out? If so, what those instructions specifically were? and whether the commissioners had any power to inquire into the working of the Scotch Poor-law system? If instructions had been given, he wished to know whether the noble Marquess had any objection to lay them on the Table, together with a copy of the circular by which they were accompanied.
The Marquess of Normanbysaid, an inquiry into the cause of infectious disease having been set on foot in one district in England, had afterwards been extended throughout the country. In consequence, the town-council of Edinburgh, and the College of Physicians and Surgeons there, requested that a similar course should be adopted with respect to Scotland, and subsequently a petition to the same effect had been sent from Glasgow. Upon these representations, he was induced to believe

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that a strong desire existed that this inquiry should be pursued in Scotland, and, thus solicited, he had agreed that it should be so extended. On one point he could readily dispel the apprehensions of his noble Friend. It was not intended that the inquiry should be at all connected with the Poor-law system in Scotland. There would be no difficulty in laying on the Table a copy of the instructions.

POOR-LAW (IRELAND).
The Marquess of Westmeathrose for the purpose of moving for a select committee to inquire into certain elections of Poor-law guardians and other matters relating to the Poor-law Act in Ireland. He admitted that the recent Poor-law Act was a matter of vast importance to Ireland. He had opposed the introduction of it both in that House and elsewhere, and in so doing had exposed himself to the reproach of seeking his own interest as a landed proprietor. Such a view had never entered his mind. He held documents at that moment in his hand, which proved beyond all possibility of doubt that he had been but too true a prophet of the results of this measure. He believed that it had been brought in with the best intentions by her Majesty's Ministers, but unfortunately it had been converted by a certain party in Ireland into a mere political scheme. The evils of it had been immediate and disastrous. One of its leading objects had been to secure a proper provision of guardians. This was to be accomplished by votes taken in manuscript, which were to be returned to certain officers named in the bill, who were to declare on whom the majority of suffrages had fallen. In most parts of Ireland—and he held in his hand the returns from nineteen counties—these elections had been accompanied by the most violent interference on the part of the Roman Catholic priests. The main characteristic which marked all the elections, arid particularly in the western parts of Ireland, was the combined efforts of the Roman Catholic priests to get their own partisans chosen into these offices, and thereby to put down the landed interest. Mobs had gone about to intimidate electors; armed parties had been employed in the night to take away from others their polling papers; individuals had gone about in the day-time either to get the voting papers from the parishioners, or to
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get them filled up according to their own wishes. In some places there had been fraudulent nominations of guardians, in others attempts at forgeries had been detected. In several cases individuals had been punished for these offences, but in no instance had they been brought home to the leaders in these transactions, owing to the influence of the Roman Catholic priests. In the county of Cork the Government had instituted a long and protracted investigation into these transactions, but there a Roman Catholic priest had acted a most prominent part in endeavouring to screen the policeman who had been guilty of the forgeries. On one occasion a priest, in defending a forgery, had let out his knowledge of it by exclaiming, "I wonder how they found it out." In the city of Dublin there had been sixty-eight well-established cases of forgery, and it had therefore become necessary to proceed to a new election: In Longford extreme violence had been displayed in open court, and in consequence the commissioner, Mr. Hancock, proposed to the Roman Catholic priests that each party should nominate two parties only, in order to avoid excitement and expense. That was the only place where this arrangement had taken place. The priests were discontented with it, and boldly avowed their determination to exercise the power which they had. A confederation to carry these elections in favour of the Roman Catholic party was general throughout the country. The lowest partisans were the great objects of the partiality of the priests, and in most instances had been elected guardians. Publicans keeping houses of the worst description, mere slews of vice, had been preferred to men of character and of landed property. But this was not all. Strange manŒuvres had been tried upon the rating and valuation of tenements, particularly in the city of Dublin. In that city 314 houses had been originally rated at 10 l.; and yet on those houses the rating had been altered the most Radical manner. Mr. Vaughan, a respectable valuator, had given every reason why the original rating should not be disturbed; and yet, notwithstanding his reasons, the valuation was completely altered. Mr. O'Connell, the returning-officer for the union of Ennistimon, in the county of Cavan, had publicly advised the electors to elect those persons whom their priests recommended,

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and no one else. An investigation into that case had been ordered, and the minutes of it were then on their Lordships' Table. And yet all that the commissioners had said to that gentleman Was, that if he acted thus again, he should be removed from his situation. The Poor-law Commissioner appointed in the county of Westmeath was a Dr. Phelan, who had been a member of the National Association. Of this the Government was perfectly aware at the period of his appointment. A meeting had been held in Mullingar for the purpose of dividing the county into unions, where Dr. Phelan attended, and made some statements as to the population of certain parishes which he had formed into unions, which had since turned out to be utterly false. Another very gross case had occurred at Cashel, where the object was, to exclude the landed proprietors from those elections. The election at Cashel took place at such an hour (contrary to the notification contained in the advertisement), that it was concluded entirely behind the backs of the landed gentry, and a noble Friend of his (Lord Hawarden) had made a complaint to the Poor-law commissioners on the subject. All these circumstances tended to show that a system prevailed throughout Ireland, which rendered it necessary for Parliament to interfere immediately with the view of providing some strong remedy. The existing power of appeal he held to be of no substantial advantage whatever. He submitted, therefore, that he had made out a case for a committee of inquiry into the working of the Poor-law in Ireland, according to the terms of his motion, which he concluded by submitting to their Lordships.
The Marquess of Normanbythought that the noble Marquess had selected his cases somewhat capriciously. He had commenced by stating with perfect candour that he had been originally an opponent of the Poor-law, both in their Lordships' House and elsewhere. The noble Marquess had proceeded to observe that the working of this system in Ireland had assumed an entirely political aspect. He was ready to admit, that in some parts of Ireland there had been partial instances of political bias; but he thought that this had been also observable in the case of the election of the ex-officio guardians. He appealed to their Lordships whether
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the noble Marquess had given them any grounds whatever for desponding as to the successful operation of that law which they had lately passed. No obstacle had been thrown in the noble Marquess's way in making out his case; all the papers which he had moved for were given without difficulty. He certainly thought that the noble Marquess must have been imposed on by some person, who furnished him with these details, and that they would eventually turn out to be unfounded. His information was completely at variance with that of the noble Marquess on this subject. He thought that the noble Marquess had selected for his statement every case in which an appeal had been made. There were in Ireland 104 unions established, and there had been thirty-four re-elections. As far as they could judge from the papers on their Lordships' table, there were only fourteen complaints. It should be understood that many of these unions contained several electoral divisions; and that of the complaints several were not from unions, but merely from electoral divisions. It was really surprising how very small a portion of the noble Marquess's statement was confirmed by the papers on their Lordships' table. It was true that forgery had been brought home to two policemen in the North Dublin Union. The Poor-law commissioners forwarded the particulars to the Government, one policeman was dismissed, while the other was forced to resign. Another complaint had been made in the Mallow Union against a policeman for similar misconduct. An investigation had taken place, and was conducted by the assistant Poor-law commissioner. Three magistrates superintended, and he would take a speedy opportunity of submitting to their Lordships these magistrates' opinion. He would, however, admit that this was a part of the subject well worthy of the consideration of the Poor-law commissioners. It might be beneficial to inquire whether any additional guards could be established on the transmission of those voting papers, and the commissioners had for some time back had the matter under their consideration, and he trusted that that investigation would be productive of much good. The noble Marquess had alluded to Leitrim, and had mentioned cases of abuse which had occurred in that part of the country. But it was impossible for their Lordships to know anything of those cases, and it would

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have been desirable that the noble Marquess should have moved in the first place for the production of papers relative to those outrages, and the proceedings of those armed parties to which he had alluded. At present there were no means of ascertaining whether those outrages were of a character to call for inquiry from their Lordships. He had been informed, however, by a Member of the other House of Parliament, that the noble Marquess was entirely mistaken as to Leitrim, and that nothing of the kind which he had stated had taken place there. This showed the necessity of having on the table papers in regard to those transactions on which their Lordships could rely, and how little dependence was to be placed on communications made by interested parties. He was perfectly ready to meet the noble Marquess on the cases contained in the papers upon the table of the House, but it was impossible to answer at once every complaint brought forward where no notice was given. The noble Marquess had stated that only persons of the lowest class found favour with the priests, and were appointed guardians. Now, he was informed on authority on which he placed perfect confidence, that it was by no means persons of this description who were elected guardians. On the contrary, respectable farmers had generally been elected, who were well qualified for the office, and who had been found to perform their duty in a satisfactory manner. When, therefore, the noble Marquess was misinformed as to the character of the persons elected, and as to what had taken place in Leitrim, was it not possible that he was also misinformed as to the other cases which had been brought before their Lordships? At all events when the statements were of such a conflicting nature their Lordships would see the necessity which existed for having official papers on the Table of the House before deciding whether there was sufficient ground for the appointment of a committee. With regard to the South Dublin union, there again the noble Marquess was misinformed. He had received a communication from the Poor-law Commissioner, from which he found that the valuator alluded to had admitted his error, but another person had been appointed in his place. In the case of Mr. O'Connell, the commissioner stated that it was impossible to dismiss him at the
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time of the election, because such a step would have the effect of stopping all the proceedings. When the election was over, however, the commissioners communicated their opinion on the subject to Mr. O'Connell, and no repetition of the offence had since taken place. As to what the noble Marquess had stated with respect to Westmeath, it was impossible for their Lordships, he conceived, to appoint a committee for the purpose of inquiring whether certain portions of an estate adjoined each other or not. The noble Marquess had candidly acknowledged that he had been misinformed as to the subject of the correspondence on their Lordships' table, and if the noble Marquess was so egregiously mistaken in 1839, it was for their Lordships to consider whether they would grant a committee upon statements which the noble Marquess might three weeks hence acknowledge to be completely wrong. As to the case of New Ross, he did not think that the noble Marquess had opened it sufficiently to induce him to trouble their Lordships with any remarks with respect to it. He was persuaded that the origin of all these things began with the ex-officio guardians, who were anxious to exclude, not only Roman Catholics, but all persons differing from them in political opinion. In New Ross there had been a direct exclusion of all the liberal party from the bench, save one. That such things had taken place was deeply to be regretted. There were faults on both sides; but practically speaking, the bill was working well, and he was sure their Lordships would hesitate before, by consenting to this motion, they added another to the many difficulties which the commissioners experienced in carrying the bill into effect. He would put it to their Lordships whether it was possible to consent to a motion of this kind upon such grounds as had been laid by the noble Marquess. There were many parts of the papers upon the table which he wished to explain, but considering the state of the House, and the period of the evening, he should refrain from doing so, and would confidently leave the fate of the motion in their Lordships' hands.
The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, when this bill was under discussion in their Lordships' House, it was obvious that the execution of its provisions would be a matter of considerable difficulty, and he

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which had taken place in the two Parliamentary boroughs of the county Tippe-amendments had not been introduced to localize as much as was possible the expenditure, and to throw it upon the proprietors for the support of the paupers on their estates and town lands, so as to give them an additional interest in the welfare of the people, and to induce them to take care of those unfortunate persons, not from motives of humanity alone, but also from motives of economy. It would have been impossible, considering the state of Ireland, to execute this measure, if strong powers had not been established in the Poor-law commissioners, and accordingly very strong powers indeed had been confided to them as to the election, the appointment, and the duties, of the guardians. The commissioners had the power to dismiss the guardians and appoint others in their place, as well as to do every other thing which it was necessary to do in order to enable them to carry the measure into effect as the law intended. In order that Parliament, and the public, and the Government, might know what was passing, the commissioners were required to keep a record of all their correspondence, and it was in the power of their Lordships, of the public, and of the proprietors of Ireland, to make complaints to the commissioners and to place on record all that passed, so as to enable that House or the Government to see whether further inquiry was necessary. That, however, had not been done. The intentions of Parliament had not been carried into effect. The grossest abuse had certainly taken place at some of the elections of guardians; but then the poor-law commissioners had not done their duty in bringing the circumstances connected with those elections under their cognizance, and properly recording them. In point of fact, therefore, their Lordships could not take cognizance of them. Besides, it was absolutely impossible, as stated by the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Normanby), to enter, at this late period of the Session, into such an inquiry, as the noble Marquess behind him demanded, with the hope of adopting any ulterior measures this Session, or indeed, without injuring the operation of the Poor law in Ireland. Their Lordships had not materials, as far as he could see, to be brought under their consideration, and could, therefore, come to no decision during the present Session. He recom-
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firmly believed, that the measure never would have passed that House if certain benefit of the recess in order to set the matter right, and to have the law properly administered throughout Ireland. With regard to the valuations that had taken place, there was no doubt that political considerations had been mixed up with them, because they went to establish a certain degree of political power. If the valuations were too low, however, the abuse of the law was as great as if it were too high. As far as the execution of the Poor-law was concerned, the higher the valuation the better; but that did not suit some parties. It was, of course, objected to, and then came disputes upon the subject. There was no way of deciding this question, except by strict inquiry on the part of the Poor-law commissioners, the result of which should be put upon record, and produced at any time, it might be considered advisable, in order to show what had passed. He hoped the noble Marquess would consent to withdraw his motion, in order that their Lordships might know next Session—should it be deemed necessary to revive this discussion—what the grounds were upon which they stood, whether an inquiry was necessary, and whether, upon inquiry, it should be advisable to amend the present law, or enact a new one.
The Earl of Glengallthought, that the noble Marquess had passed rather lightly over several of the charges which had been brought forward in support of this motion, and that one in particular which related to the South Dublin Union. It appeared, that in that union 314 houses had been valued at a certain rate by the valuators in which rate an alteration had been made for reasons best known to those who made it. The value of those 314 houses had been raised from various sums to 10 l., and as he understood in this manner. A gentleman named Seaton, who attended at the registry session for the Radical interest, was one of a party appointed by the Poor-law guardians to go round and inspect the valuation, and having represented that those houses had been valued too low, induced the Poor-law guardians to raise them to 10 l., for the purpose, evidently, of conferring upon them the Parliamentary franchise. In St. Catherine's parish, the value of twenty-seven houses was raised in the same way. He had also to complain of the valuation

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mended the noble Marquess not to press his motion at present. Let them have the rary, being two Poor-law unions, namely, Clonmel and Cashel. The reason of all this might, he thought, be traced to the returning officers, who were not men of sufficient respectability, and who were vested with too much power. He would suggest, that an alteration should be made in that part of the bill. He thought, that the most proper persons who could be elected returning officers were the high constables of the districts. They were gentlemen of the highest respectability; they were elected by the grand juries, and they were required to give security to the amount of 2.000 l. or 3,000 l. for the collection of the county cess. The bill allowed any individual to be a returning officer; and the consequence of which was, that generally speaking, they were persons who kept dram shops. If fair and proper elections of Poor-law guardians could be had (and there was no doubt they could, if the returning officers were respectable), then he thought, the whole operation of the law would go on well, and give satisfaction both to the people at large, and the gentry of the country. Motion withdrawn.