Lords Sitting of 24 February 1840

MINUTES.
Bill. The Royal Assent was given by Commission to the Transfer of Aids Bill.
Petitions presented. By the Marquess of Westminster, from the Trustees of Charities in Shaftesbury, for Redress from Injuries done them by the Municipal Reform Act.—By the Marquess of Normanby, from Marylebone, for the Repeal of the Corn-laws.—By Lord Abinger, from the Soldiers and Sailors Friends Society, against Socialism.—By the Marquess of Bute, from Ayr, and other places, for an Alteration in the Law of Church Patronage in Scotland.

CORPORATION. APPOINTMENTS OF TRUSTEES.
The Marquess of Westminsterpresented a petition from individuals connected with certain small charities, whose right to administer the same had ceased and determined by the Municipal Corporation Act, complaining that the expense of appointing trustees under the Act was more than the funds of the charities could bear, and praying for some measure of relief. The noble Marquess called the attention of the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack particularly to this subject.
The Lord Chancelloradmitted that the grievance was one which deserved the serious consideration of the Legislature.

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The subject was one which was attended with considerable difficulty with reference to the views which were entertained amongst the parties concerned themselves. Certain of them might desire some alteration, but before that could be effected, it was necessary to have the concurrence of all. If any mode presented itself to him by which the difficulty could be overcome and the grievance removed, it would be his duty to bring it under the consideration of their Lordships.

MINORCA. FRANCE.
The Marquess of Londonderry, seeing the noble Viscount in his place, was desirous to ask him a question respecting what was called the temporary occupation by the French of King's Islet, near Minorca, in Port Mahon. When on a former occasion an inquiry was made relative to this point, the noble Viscount said, he was quite assured that the papers which would be laid before their Lordships would be found to give a perfectly satisfactory explanation. Now, he must declare that those papers were not at all satisfactory to him, and to show why they were not, he begged leave to refer to the despatch (No. 4.) from Sir George Villiers to Viscount Palmerston, dated November 4, 1837. It was there slated:—
"A report of the Committee of state on the occupation of the King's Islet, in Port Mahon, by the French has been read, and was approved without discussion. The proposition on which the report was founded was to the effect, that the measure adopted by the Government with respect to this island should be suspended; and the committee declare, that they have observed with the greatest regret the steps that have been taken by the Government on the subject. It appears, the Committee state, that the French have for some time rented the island from the local authorities as a depôt for coal, and as it is now likely to be more necessary to them than ever, on account of their occupation of a portion of the coast of Africa, the French Ambassador at this court received instructions from his Government to apply to the government of her Catholic majesty for the use of the buildings on the island for a fixed period. The Government consulted the authorities of the island, and although their report was unanimously against acceding to the request, it was granted by the Government, on account of its being politically convenient not to deny this favour to an ally, when on the other hand, the inconveniences attending the refusal of it were taken into consideration. The French government were therefore permitted to hold the premises in question for the term of two years, renew-
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able at pleasure, for the annual rent of 300 reals (3l.). After having heard the Minister of State, and although extremely desirous of manifesting a sincere wish to maintain the most friendly relations with France, the Committee nevertheless advised the Chamber to offer to the French government the best buildings on the island of Minorca itself, which may be adapted for the objects in view, instead of the spot called King's Islet, by which proceeding, they state, the wants of the French vessels of war will be consulted, and the national anxiety on the subject tranquilized."
Now there was in his opinion, a great deal of difference between occupying houses and barns situated on the island of Minorca, and occupying King's Islet, in the centre of Port Mahon. Looking to the last letter dated January 16, 1840, from Mr. Gaynor, the British Vice-Consul at Port Mahon, on this subject, he found that it merely stated, that—
"Since the departure of Consul Lieutenant Colonel C. L. Fitzgerald, nothing has occurred worthy of remark, except the renewal of the lease, by the Spanish to the French government, for two years of the King's, or Hospital Island, situate in the centre of this port, with its hospital and its appurtenances, at a monthly rent of 16 dollars, with the reserve, in case Spain should not have occasion for it."
It was to be observed that not a single reason had been given why the buildings and barns on the island of Minorca were not appropriated instead of this islet. He believed that any person who was acquainted with the position of the latter, would state, that if the French were to have possession of it for two years, unless they were absolutely prohibited from erecting fortifications, they would make it so formidable a post, that, if we ever returned (as was by no means impossible) to a war with France, (in which case, he had no doubt that the waters of the Mediterranean would be the scene of conflict), it would be found to operate injuriously to our interests in that quarter. He could not, therefore, avoid looking with jealousy at their occupation of an island in the centre of Port Mahon. He wished consequently, to know whether any communication had taken place explaining why buildings and outhouses on the island of Minorca were not given up to the French, instead of a separate island? The subject was very important, and on some future day he would propose a motion with reference to it.
The Earl of Clarendoncould not see

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what right the British Government had to ask of the Spanish Government its reasons for not having adopted a resolution of a committee of the Cortes. That, amongst other matters, had been taken up by the opposition in the Cortes, and had been used to excite an ill-feeling against the Government. A Committee was appointed, and had made the report which had been alluded to. But the lease having been granted long before, the Government saw no reason to rescind it. The warehouse and hospital so leased were first in possession of the United States, and afterwards, in a strange manner, handed over to France, who wished to make use of it as a dépôt for coal, and there was no objection to granting it to them for that purpose, on the same terms as those on which it had been held by the American Government. There was, moreover, a clause in the first lease, which stipulated that the French should not exceed the authority exercised by the previous occupiers of the island; and in the lease now granted to them for two years there was a similar stipulation; besides which, they were only to hold the station in the event of the Spanish Government not wanting it for their own use. Inquiry had been made of the French Government as to what were their intentions respecting the place; and the answer was, that they merely wished to use it as a coal dépôt; and it appeared to him that there could be no objecton to their using it for that purpose.
The Earl of Aberdeensaid, that the matter was one of considerable importance. It was not the first time the French had endeavoured to establish a footing in the island. They had requested permission to place a dépôt there ten years ago, but the Spanish Government then refused its permission to allow the French to form any such establishment. The noble Earl had said, that the matter had excited a great deal of alarm and of interest in Spain. Those feelings, in his opinion, were very natural. The noble Earl had also stated, that the Opposition in the Cortes had taken up the question. Surely, it was very natural that they should, and he was afraid that the Opposition in their Lordships' House would also find it necessary to take it up, in order to show that it was a point which might lead to very serious consequences. The Cortes committee had recommended that if the
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French formed an establishment of the kind, it should be on the main land, where they would be more under the control of the Spanish Government, which might prevent them from erecting such works as at a future period might become formidable. The noble Earl, however, said, that it was a temporary agreement, and he asked, what right had we to interfere with the distribution of any portion of the Spanish territories? He would answer, that we claimed that right fur the best of all possible reasons—for the security of our position in the Mediterranean. Our interest there rendered it imperative on us to interfere. He conceived that they had a right to complain, not that the French Government had placed themselves in this situation, but that the Spanish Government had given to France this facility for forming an establishment which might seriously affect the interests of this country. The noble Earl had not told them that by the terms of the lease the French were prohibited from strengthening themselves on the island, which was a very important matter. If it could be shown that the French meant only to have a dépôt for coal, or an hospital for the sick on the island (it being strictly provided that they should not convert it into a post of strength), the matter would then assume a different aspect. But, unless the noble Earl declared that they were positively prevented from erecting any buildings that partook of the character of barracks, or had a hostile appearance—unless he showed that it was impossible for them to construct any buildings on that island which might be available to them in military operations, in that case the objection to the continuance of the French there became exceedingly strong. Considering all that had taken place in that part of the world, no one could be surprised that there should be some degree of anxiety felt in this country on the subject.
Lord Ellenboroughwished to know if the French had erected any building in the island besides dépôts and hospitals? Whether any edifice had been raised there that was not strictly in accordance with the terms of the lease?
The Earl of Clarendonwas not aware that the French had erected any other. He believed that the Spanish Government would not allow the erection of any building whatsoever of a military cha-

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racter. The noble Earl had stated that the Spanish Government had refused to lease the island to France. [The Earl of Aberdeen.—In 1830.] He believed, that about 1830 the American Government had handed the island over to France; and very shortly after the taking of Algiers the French turned it into a coal dépôt. They had now held it for several years, but only as a coal dépôt. He believed that there were none but invalids there: and there had never been more than one sloop of war at any time near the island, He had not the least apprehension of the French forming a military establishment on the island. He had made inquiries on these points; and he found, that since the French had occupied it no individuals appeared there, except a few to receive coals; and, as he had said before, there had been but one French sloop of war on the station.
Viscount Melbournesaid, he did not know they could prevent the French from establishing themselves on the island, with the concurrence of the Spanish Government. If the French had endeavoured to settle themselves in the island of Minorca, he thought the jealousy of the House and of the country might fairly have been roused. Their possession of this islet was, however, a very different matter. In his opinion they had no ulterior objects in view; and, certainly, if they entertained any such, they had acquired no very great facilities for carrying them into effect.
Conversation ended.

ANGLO-SPANISH LEGION.
The Marquess of Londonderryrose to address their Lordships on another question. Though it might be somewhat irregular, he should solicit the indulgence of their lordships whilst he said a few words on the claims which the British Auxiliary Legion had on the Spanish Government—claims which, up to this hour, were unsettled. He could assure their Lordships, that he was not about to make any attack upon her Majesty's Government. He thought they must have had enough of attacks—attacks sufficient to sicken, nay, to kill, half-a-dozen Governments. [Viscount Melbourne, "Oh, no!"] The noble Viscount might laugh; but he would tell the noble Viscount, that when the French Ministers were recently left in a minority of twenty-six, they, acting on a point of honour,
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declined to carry on the Government; but the noble Viscount and his colleagues, notwithstanding they were beaten on one question by a majority of 104, and on another by a majority of ten, still continue in their ignoble position of stedfastly adhering to place and pay, although they must feel that the right hon. Baronet, the Member for Tamworth, and his friends, ought to fill the situations now held by the noble Viscount and his colleagues. Having said this, which he was induced to do by the manner of the noble Viscount, he should now return to the subject to which he wished to call their Lordships' attention. He had recently received several letters from parties who had belonged to the Spanish Legion, and who were suffering greatly in consequence of the non-settlement of their claims by the Spanish Government.—He had received a letter on the subject which he would at once read:—
"As I perceive you are shortly to bring the affairs of Spain before the House of Lords, I trust your Lordship will not allow the opportunity to pass without inquiring of the Government whether there is any chance of the claims of the unfortunate men who served in the British Auxiliary Legion being liquidated. There is above 200 l. due to me on account of those claims, which would be a great relief to me, as I have been much distressed in consequence of the delay. Your Lordship's exertions towards effecting an arrangement, will ever oblige your Lordship's humble servant."
The date of this letter was the 14th of February, 1840, and the address 54, William-street, Dublin.
There were circumstances of a peculiar nature connected with those claims, to which he begged leave to call their Lordships' serious attention. An attempt was made at St. Sebastian to settle these claims. The noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Clarendon) had stated in May, 1837, "that his intervention with respect to the payment of these demands was recognized by the Spanish Government," which he considered as a distinct guarantee for the liquidation of those claims by the noble Earl, who was then our ambassador at Madrid. The noble Earl now belonged to her Majesty's Cabinet (he knew not whether he had much influence there), but he asked him whether he would exert himself to fulfil the guarantee thus given. In the last Session he had charged the Government with being privy to the con-

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yention which Colonel Wylde had entered into relative to the payment of these claims. At that time the noble Viscount denied that the gallant Colonel had any authority to act on behalf of the British Government. Colonel Wylde was now in this country, and, he would ask, whether he had any authority as a British officer, as well as a Spanish commissioner, to see that those payments were adjusted and effected? If he had no such authority, then he must say, that Colonel Wylde had acted in a very reprehensible manner; but if he had such authority, then he could not see how the British Government could get out of the difficulty of forcing Spain to liquidate those claims. Colonel Wylde arrived in St. Sebastian previous lo June 10, 1837, and signed warrants for the issue of pay, and on the 10th of June issued the following order:—
"The officers of the British Auxiliary Legion, whose term of service expires this day, will be entitled to billets, pay, and rations, until they are settled with, and vessels provided to convey them to England,
(Signed) "W. WYLDE, Colonel."
His conduct also at a public meeting was most extraordinary:—
"At a public meeting of officers in San Sebastian, Colonel Wylde said, that he stood before them in a twofold capacity, viz. as 'a commissioner from the Queen of England, and as a commissioner from the Queen of Spain,' and that he was authorized by her Britannic Majesty's Minister at Madrid, to pledge himself that a portion of pay should be issued before they left Spain, and that they should receive good bills for the remainder. Colonel Wylde and Brigadier-General Tena afterwards gave to each paymaster a warrant to estimate for and pay their officers to the day when their arrears should be settled in good bills or cash. A similar warrant was also given to Deputy Commissary-General Black, for the payment of officers of the staff, &c. In consequence of these assurances, a number of officers and men were induced to enter the new Legion, the conditions of service for which were also signed by Colonel Wylde."
The noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs was reported to have said, in another place, that though the British claims on the Portuguese Government were not so strong as those of the Legion officers on Spain, still if the Portuguese Government refused to satisfy the claims awarded by a British and Portuguese
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commissioner, he certainly should enforce satisfaction. Now what was 280,000 l. or 300,000 l. to the Spanish Government? It was true their finances might be in a state of difficulty; but would any one say that this country might not, by some financial arrangement with Spain, render valuable those securities which had been given to the Legion, and which were at present worthless? Why could not those assignats or certificates be given in payment for duties? Why might they not be made available through some other commercial channel if the Government chose to insist on it. Why might not 200,000 l, be received by some plan of the nature for those unfortunate men, who were now suffering the deepest distress, and who could plead that they had the guarantee both of the noble Earl and of Colonel Wylde that their just claims should be fairly met and settled? What had they got? Nothing but bad notes or assignats, as they were called, of General Alava; and they were now at a discount of twenty-five per cent. The Jews had been busily engaged in buying them up; and though he would not say that members of the Spanish mission had been engaged in such a traffic, he could not, and would not, conceal from their Lordships, that a report to that effect was current. He called upon their Lordships to look at the mode in which the Foreign-office had disposed of the superior officers of the Legion, in order to get rid of their importunities. He had got a list of the officers who had served in the Legion, and had subsequently obtained promotion in the British army, and a very curious list it was. Their Lordships would hardly believe, that out of the officers who had served in the British Auxiliary Legion, fifty-six had either been promoted in the army by the Horse Guards over the heads of older officers in India and elsewhere, or had been provided for in the civil service of the country, no doubt upon the recommendation of the Foreign-office.
The following is a list of the officers rewarded by honours, promotions, and appointments, for their services in Spain: which was read by the noble Marquess:—
Sir De Lacy Evans, Lieut.-General, made a K.C.B.—Evans, Brigadier-General, appointed Military Secretary to the Governor of Madras.—M'Dougal, Sir Duncan, Brigadier-Ge-

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neral, knighted.—Shaw, Sir Charles, Brigadier-General, knighted, and made Commissioner of Police for Manchester.—Le Marchant, Sir J. G. knighted, and appointed to command a British regiment.—Chichester, Brigadier-General, appointed to the command of a British regiment.—Fitzgerald, Brigadier-General, appointed consul at Carthagena.—O'Connell, Brigadier-General, Military Secretary, New South Wales.—Jochmus, Brigadier-General, employed on secret service in Turkey.—Reid, Brigadier-General, Governor of Bermuda.—Colquhoun, Lieut.-Colonel, from Second Captain of Artillery to a Lieutenant-Colonelcy.—Boyd, Lieut.-Colonel, Majority 38th Regiment.—Ibbetson, Assistant Commissary-General, made Assistant Commissary-General British Service.—Hicks, Colonel, made Barrack-master.—Wetherall, Colonel, appointed Commissioner of Police in Canada.—Wakefield, Colonel, appointed Lieut.-Governor of New Zealand.—Swan, Colonel, employed on a particular service in Canada.—Rottenberg, Baron de, ditto.—Johnson, Captain, made Queen's Messenger.—Browne, Captain, appointed clerk in the Foreign Office.—Hoseason, Mr. C.C., appointed clerk in the Colonial Office.—Considine, Lieut.-Colonel, appointed Military Secretary, West Indies,—Wylde, Colonel, C. B. made full Colonel, and appointed Equerry to his Royal Highness, Prince Albert; his son made clerk in the Foreign Office.
He had gone only through a part of the list, and there were fifty-six of them in all. How, he would ask, did it happen that all the officers had been provided for, while the men had been abandoned? Men could not help asking themselves whether Ministers had not given them promotion to get rid of their importunities. If they had not done so, they had contrived very badly in providing for all the officers, and in abandoning all the men. A commission, it was true, had been appointed to examine into their claims; but the very first measure it had taken was to close it by fixing a certain time, after which it would receive no claims. Yes, they issued a statement that all claims not sent in by a certain time (he believed it was the 9th of September,) would not be admitted. They had not however given any public notice of this their intention, either in Ireland or in Scotland, or in any other more distant parts of the British empire, where these unfortunate men or their relatives might happen to be residing. He was surprised that such public notice had not been given by some of the superior officers connected with the Legion. The commission, however, had sat for some time,
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and he was given to understand that not less than 3,000 certificates were still wanting by the men. Here he would beg leave to call the attention of their Lordships to the conduct of the commission:—"Contracts had been agreed to or broken, as suited the purposes of the commission; medical certificates had been refused and granted without sufficient grounds; pensions had been refused to some officers who were entitled to them, under the British regulations, and allowed to others who had no right to them. The decision of the war-office had not been given on the claims until it had been extracted by dread of public exposure. Gratuities had been denied to several officers, who had done good service, while they had been given to others, who had either retired or had been dismissed from the Legion." Such were the representations which had been put into his hands; and he believed the real truth of the circumstances to be, that these unfortunate men were kept out of their money by the base manœuvring of the Spanish Government, through Spanish agents in this country. He hoped that the noble Viscount or the noble Earl opposite, would feel it to be his duly to bring this question to a direct issue; and if in a short time he did not see a prospect of immediate justice being done to these claimants, he would, soon after the recess, move an address to her Majesty, that she would take measures with the Spanish Government to have these claims adjusted. The noble Marquess then moved, that "there be laid on the table a return of all decisions of the War-office on the pensions and compensations granted to the wounded officers of the British Auxiliary Legion, and also a return of all the outstanding claims of the men of that Legion not presented before the 30th of September, 1839." He concluded by asking the noble Earl opposite whether any arrangement had been made on the subject to which his motion referred with the Spanish Government; and if not, whether it was the intention of her Majesty's Ministers to propose to that Government any mode of arranging these claims?
The Earl of Clarendonsaid, it was very satisfactory to find that these unfortunate men, who had been so long and so unceasingly the objects of the keenest vituperations of the noble Earl, and on whose conduct he could not formerly bestow a single word of approbation, had now be-

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come the objects of his warmest solicitude. Instead of entering into the wide field of observation into which the noble Earl had directed his discursive march, he should confine himself to the statement of a few facts, and more particularly to the refutation of the attack which the noble Earl had made upon himself and upon the guarantee which the noble Earl had said that he gave, when the men of the first Legion were on the point of embarcation for England. As the representative of the British Government at the Court of Spain, he had no official right to interfere to procure the payment of individuals who had voluntarily enlisted themselves in the service of the Queen of Spain; but as an Englishman having some influence at her court, it was impossible for him to remain passive to the necessities and wants of so many of his fellow-countrymen. He had, therefore, used his best exertions to obtain the fulfilment of those engagements into which the Spanish Government had entered with them, and he was happy to inform their Lordships that every claim which he had brought forward had been listened to, and as far as was possible at the time complied with; and that, under these circumstances, he had written to General Evans, stating, that as the Spanish Government had accepted his intervention, he had no doubt that all the engagements which it had made with the men of his force would be performed. What had been the consequence of that intervention on his part. That every soldier who went away was paid up to the time of his embarkation. All of them were paid except 250 Lancers, as fully as if they had belonged to the British army. There were 3,000 or 4,000 men thus paid up. The noble Earl laughed at that statement. Did the noble Earl mean to deny it? [The Marquess of Londonderry: Push it further—push it further.] "Push it further?" What does the noble Earl mean by that? With respect to the fifty-six officers who had been appointed to various situations, and whose promotion the noble Earl attributed to a desire on the part of Her Majesty's Government to get rid of their importunities, he had only to observe, that he could not believe the noble Earl to be serious in making the statement which he had done upon that point. A great part of the officers whose promotion the noble Earl had attacked were personally unknown to him; he knew them, however, by character as
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some of the most distinguished officers in her Majesty's service; and he hardly thought their Lordships would sanction the idea, that because they had engaged in a service of which the noble Earl did not approve, they were therefore to have a bar set against their further employment. He believed that there was not one of those officers who had not distinguished himself greatly, and if they were taken individually, there was not one of them whose appointment was not defensible by the Government on its own special grounds. He should be glad to see the list which the noble Earl had read, and to give the noble Earl, in each particular case, an account of the reasons which had led to the individual's promotion. With respect to one of the officers of the name of Colquhoun, whom the noble Earl represented to have been appointed to a lieutenant-colonelcy in the British service, he happened to know that that officer only held that rank locally so long as he continued at Lisbon. With respect to the assertion that the claims of the soldiers had not been attended to, he must observe that they had received the whole of their pay, and that every farthing to which they were entitled as pay had been given to them just as if they had been serving in the British army. The noble Marquess shook his head; it was very easy to do that, but could the noble Marquess disprove his statement? It was true that the soldiers had not yet received their gratuities, and there were more reasons than the inability of the Spanish government to account for the non-settlement of those gratuities. It had taken a considerable time to examine and audit the accounts, which were of a very complicated character. He stated with confidence that the Spanish government had proceeded in the examination and audit of those accounts with the most complete good faith. He thought that when the noble Marquess calmly read over his remarks of that evening, he would regret deeply having said that the members of the Spanish mission had been concerned in discounting the certificates granted to the soldiers of the Legion, and would also regret having brought against the Spanish government a charge of insincerity and fraud. With respect to the commission, and the notice which it had given, he would now proceed to make a very short statement. He would inform the House of what that

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commission had done. It was appointed in November, 1838, and had been engaged for nine or ten months in its labours, during which time the claims of 3,000 men had been examined into, and nearly as many certificates had been granted. At the end of that time it was thought that no more claims would be brought forward, and therefore the commissioners, in order to save the expense of keeping the commission open, expressed an opinion that the commission ought to be closed. They therefore published a notice in August, 1839, stating that, after a month from the date thereof, no fresh claims would be received. Was there any secrecy in that? The fact was, that the notice was published in all the newspapers at the time, and was publicly posted up in all the towns where the men of the Legion had been first enlisted. It was afterwards stated, in another place, by his noble Friend, the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, that, as the notice up to the 15th of September was not considered sufficient, fifteen days more would be granted, and ultimately the notice was extended to the 30th of September, 1839. It was furthermore stated, that as there were some claims into which inquiry could not be made in Spain conveniently to the claimants, inquiry into them should be instituted in London. Now, to that arrangement, none of the superior officers of the Legion had offered, on behalf of their men, the slightest objection. Perhaps ii might be convenient, as this discussion would go abroad, to state how this commission was composed. It was composed of one individual, a gentleman of high character, selected by the Legion itself, and possessing its entire confidence, who had been substituted for another gentleman, of whose proceedings the Legion did not approve, and to whom, as a substitute for the former gentleman, the Spanish government, though it might have objected, had not made any opposition. It was composed of another individual appointed by the Spanish government, a Spaniard, a gentleman of great respectability, long resident in London, and thoroughly conversant with our language, and with our mode of transacting business. The referees were men of the most unsullied honour, and the most unblemished reputation, as he thought that their Lordships would admit when they heard that they were General Alava and Sir R. Dundas.
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Every point on which they decided was submitted to the War-office, and was not made public until it met the sanction of his noble Friend, the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. He contended that such being the facts, no commission had ever been appointed that was more calculated to give satisfaction to all parties who had any concern with it. The noble Marquess had said that he had made inquiries into this subject. Would the noble Marquess permit him to ask who the parties were of whom he had made inquiry! Were they persons worthy of credit? If the noble Marquess had wished to obtain redress for the grievances of the claimants, would it not have been more natural for him to have gone in the first place to General Alava or to Sir R. Dundas? Such a course, however, would not have suited the purpose of the noble Earl; yet such a course would undoubtedly have been much better than that of stigmatizing men of character as parties guilty of fraud and insincerity. Had the noble Earl pursued the course he ought to have pursued, he would have found that since the commission had given notice that it would close its labours, a thousand certificates had been issued, and he would also have found that the commission was not even yet closed; but that the most ample provision had been made—he would not merely say in the most just and honourable manner, but in the most generous spirit by the Spanish Government—for the liquidation of future claims, as might be naturally expected by all who were acquainted with the high and chivalrous character of General Alava. It might be as well for him to state once for all, that there were certain individuals, with not much knowledge, but with a large infusion of the spirit of mischief, who for the sake of their own paltry emoluments were most anxious that the labours of this commission should not be cut short. Now, if the noble Earl's object were to obtain for these claimants a redress of grievances, and not to make a mere statement of their sufferings, he would in future obtain his information from General Alava rather than from the individuals to whom he had just alluded.
The Marquess of Londonderrydisclaimed all intention of asserting that the employment of these officers in the service of the Queen of Spain was to be a bar to their promotion in the service of the

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Queen of England. He sympathized with the sufferings of the men of the Legion, because they had been the victims of the noble Earl and the noble Viscount opposite, who, as they seduced, ought to have protected them. He did not mean to deny that many of these officers had distinguished themselves in the ranks of the British army; but it was singular that no less than fifty-six officers should have been promoted for serving in the Legion—a number of promotions out of all proportion to its amount, when compared with the number of promotions granted to our officers in India, and in the other corps of the British army. The noble Earl had stated that the pay of the Legion had been granted; but he had been compelled to admit that the gratuities had not. He could not pretend to enter into all the details of this subject, but this he knew, that no less a sum than 280,000 l. was now due, and remained unpaid, to the men of the Legion. The noble Earl took credit to himself for having obtained the pay of the Legion by means of his guarantee, but he seemed to have forgotten that his guarantee went not only to the pay, but to everything that was due to them in the service. Did the noble Earl mean to assert that Colonel Wylde had no right to make the declaration that he would be responsible for the pay and gratuities of the officers? This was a question which the noble Earl ought to have answered, but which he had not answered. The noble Earl had also challenged his sources of information. The noble Earl had asked, "Why did you not go for information to General Alava or to Sir R. Dundas?" It might be very satisfactory to the noble Earl to have him going to General Alava, whom the noble Earl had got completely under his thumb, but what should he have got by going? General Alava, no doubt, would have received him very courteously and civilly; he would have been as kind and as pleasant to him in conversation as he had been to the Spanish bondholders who went to him the other day for information as to the period when their dividend would be paid; and, like those unfortunate bondholders, he should have returned from the General just as wise as he went.
Viscount Melbournein the few observations which he meant to address to their Lordships would confine himself to
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the motion of the noble Earl, and to the questions which had been put. And first as to the arrangement of the time for receiving these claims. After sitting for a period of eight or nine months, the commissioners announced on the 6th of August that it was their intention, upon the expiration of a month, to receive no more claims. Now, it was impossible that the business of any commission could be carried on by any different sort of arrangement. Upon a reference being made to his noble Friend the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, his noble Friend said that he conceived the time to be too short, and the period was accordingly enlarged to the 20th of September. He apprehended that this part of the motion would merely state these well-known facts, and throw no new light upon the matter. The noble Earl asked for the decision of the War-office. He did not know what that meant. But if he meant that his noble Friend had received from the Secretary-at-War statements of what would be the practice in the case of compensation for wounds, or other pensions in the British army, those statements had undoubtedly been forwarded for the information of the commissioners; but these were obviously papers which could not be produced. The statements in those papers could not be in anywise binding upon the commissioners, nor could they be at all regarded as decisions of the War-office. He did not, therefore, apprehend that it was at all likely that their Lordships would call for these papers. The noble Earl had asked whether any arrangement had been entered into with the Spanish Government for the liquidation of these claims. No final arrangement had as yet been entered into. The commissioners were engaged in ascertaining the nature and amount of these various claims. It would be for the Spanish Government, when the labours of the commission were terminated, to take their own view as to the most proper mode of liquidating these claims. If the noble Earl asked him what was the intention of the British Government, in the event of these claims not being liquidated, it was to use all fitting, proper, and discreet means of obtaining a settlement of these just claims from the Spanish Government. It was very possible, however, that considerable allowance was to be made for delay in the settlement of these claims, with a formidable civil war in the heart of

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the country; but, however this might occasion delay, he begged to state, that he did not in the least doubt the determination of the Spanish Government ultimately to satisfy all its legitimate claimants. He had as little doubt that no one would have reasonable ground to complain of the British Government for declining to take any fitting step to obtain justice for those who were entitled to its assistance and protection. This was the answer which he had to give to the motion and questions of the noble Earl. He did not See why, upon a motion of this description, the noble Earl should have given the names of so many officers, both civil and military, who had received promotion at home since serving in the British Auxiliary Legion. The last, however, which the noble Earl gave, contained the names of some of the officers of artillery, who had been employed in that service by the British Government, and who were as distinguished, he believed, as any officers in the British service. Whether those officers had been in Spain or elsewhere, they would have received this promotion, to which they were well entitled. Having heard the list which had been read over by the noble Earl, he must say that, in his opinion, there never were appointments more creditable to the Government.
The Marquess of Londonderrysaid, that ns the noble Viscount had thought fit to deny the production of those papers which had passed between the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, and the War-office, he would not at present press the matter further.
Subject at an end.