Lords Sitting of 17 February 1840

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a first time:—Frivilous Suits Bill Amendment; Rated Inhabitants; Transfer of Aids.
Petitions presented. By the Marquess of Lansdowne, and the Earl of Radnor, from a number of places, for the Release of John Thorogood, and for the Abolition of Church Rates.—By the Duke of Sutherland, the Marquess of Bute, and the Earls of Errol, and Aberdeen, from a number of places in Scotland, against the Intrusion of Ministers into Parishes without the consent of the Parishioners.—By the Duke of Sutherland, from several places in Staffordshire, against Church Rates.

TAKING of KHELAT.
Lord Ellenboroughsaid, there had been laid on the table certain despatches, which were printed on the 21st of January, relative to the War in Affghanistan, and the noble Viscount had moved a vote of thanks to the officers alluded to in those despatches. Since that vote had passed other despatches had been received from Major-general Willshire, containing an account of a most brilliant exploit—the capture of Khelat by storm. No doubt if those despatches had been received with the others, they also would have been laid on the table, and the noble Viscount would have included the officers in that vote of thanks. He would, therefore, suggest to the noble Viscount, whether he would not now lay on the table the further despatches, and also move the thanks of the House to Major-general Willshire and the officers under his command. He would also mention another part of the subject. When the war took place in Ava, the thanks of the

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House were voted, not only to the General-in-chief, but also to the Brigadier-general by name; that precedent had not been followed upon this occasion, and he would suggest whether the precedent of the war in Ava should not be followed upon this occasion, and whether they should not bestow upon the General-in-chief, and the Brigadier-general, by name, as well as the officers, the highest possible honour that could be conferred upon them, the vote of that House.
Viscount Melbournehad no objection to lay the fresh despatches on the table, and to amend the vote so as to include the officers engaged in the capture of Khelat.

SOCIALISM.
The Bishop of Exeterwished to ask the noble Viscount at the head of her Majesty's Government whether, in July last be had received a letter from the rev. Andrew Irvine, of St. Margaret's Leicester, to the effect which he should now beg leave to read. The right rev. Prelate then read the letter as follows:—
"St. Margaret's, Leicester, Feb. 11, 1840.
"My Lord,—In July last I took the liberty of informing Lord Melbourne that the Socialists were making efforts to extend themselves in Liecester, and had advertised for a larger school-room, not a little encouraged by the countenance of the Prime Minister, in introducing Mr. Owen to the Queen.
"As an instance of the evil effects of their proceedings, I stated to his Lordship, that a youth of fifteen years of age, a teacher in my Sunday School, was in a public office with another clerk, about nineteen years old, who was a lecturer in the Socialists' Institution, whither he took him more than once to hear some blasphemous addresses. He then gave him a paper containing many Scripture texts, chiefly denouncing God's judgments against the Canaanites, and added this injunction, 'Read these texts, and consider them carefully, and if, after that, you deny that God Almighty is a regular beast, you are a beast yourself, and have no understanding.'
"After making this statement, and expressing my regret at Mr. Owen's introduction to the Queen, I offered to communicate any other circumstances that might arise connected with the subject. His Lordship simply directed his secretary to acknowledge the receipt of my letter, and from that day to this there has been no further communication.
"The population of my parish exceeding 30,000 souls, there is large scope in it for the Socialists, who, I fear, are doing much mischief. They have Sunday meetings for lectures, &c, and dances, not of the most decent kind on the Sunday evenings. It is impossible, there-
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fore, for me to feel indifferent about their proceedings.
I have the honour to be, my Lord,
Your obedient servant,
A. IRVINE.'
"To the right rev. the Bishop of Exeter."
Now he the (Bishop of Exeter) should like to know from the noble Viscount whether he had received the letter?
Viscount Melbourne: I did receive the letter.
The Bishop of Exeter: Did the noble Viscount take any steps in consequence of that letter?
Viscount Melbourne: No.
The Bishop of Exeter: Did the noble Viscount consider that any steps were or were not necessary to be taken?
Viscount Melbournesaid, this would lead to an argument on the whole subject, which he was very unwilling to enter into; but certainly, in his opinion, it was not necessary to answer the communication. Indeed, he very much questioned the prudence of the course which this House had adopted with respect to this question.
The Earl of Aberdeenasked, whether the noble Viscount objected to receiving this communication? The noble Marquess, the Secretary for the Home Department, had complained, that a clergyman, instead of imparting information to him, had given it to others.
Viscount Melbournesaid, he did not object to this communication. On the contrary, he was obliged to the rev. Gentleman for his communication; but he had not answered it because he was desirous of avoiding a controversy on the subject. He was afraid, however, that the right rev. Prelate would frustrate his object.
The Bishop of Exeterwould beg leave, in presenting a petition, to make some few observations on the remarks which had just fallen from the noble Viscount. The noble Viscount at the head of her Majesty's Government had assented, after a long debate, to an address which recognized the necessity of a full inquiry being gone into with respect to the evils of Socialism. The noble Viscount, however, declared to-night, that, in his opinion, the House acted unwisely in taking that step. He sincerely wished that the noble Viscount bad had the manliness, on the night when that motion was made, to state that the course adopted was imprudent, if he thought so. Looking to the high station in which the noble Vis-

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count was placed, and considering that he had agreed to that motion, he conceived that it was his duty to carry its object fully into effect. The noble Viscount ought, in his opinion, to have felt bound to use his utmost endeavours to render that resolution of their Lordships efficient. He thought that it was very wrong for a Minister of the Crown, on one night, to concur in such a motion, and afterwards to come down and say, that the House, in his opinion, had done a very foolish thing in adopting that proposition. He was astonished that the noble Viscount had not felt it to be his duty to take immediate steps on the receipt of that letter; because, let him remind the noble Viscount, that a great part of the case to which it related rested on the noble Viscount's own act, an act which he had himself admitted to be at least an indiscretion. It appeared, however, that that indiscretion was followed by evils of the worst kind—by encouragement of doctrines which could not be entertained by any of her Majesty's subjects without tending to the destruction of society. It was clear that the society was rapidly increasing in this particular neighbourhood, for it would appear by the following advertisement, which was inserted in the Leicester Journal, of July last, that they wished to establish a large school:—
"Social Institution.—Wanted to rent a large house, in a central situation, with a warehouse or premises attached, suitable for a school."
What doctrines were to be taught in such a school? That might be inferred from the instance adduced by the rev. Gentleman whose letter he had read, who stated a case which came within his own notice, where one of those Socialist lecturers attempted to induce a young man to pursue a course of the most hideous blasphemy and profanation. If the noble Viscount had supposed that the rev. gentleman was deceived in his information, would it not have been natural and proper for him to inquire of the magistrates of the place whether these evils existed—whether they were spreading or not? If he had done so, he could assure the noble Viscount the magistrates would have answered that they did exist—that they were spreading,—that they had attracted the attention of the magistrates, and that the magistrates were eager that some
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course should be taken to check them and to put them down. The rev. gentleman, having been rejected by the noble Viscount—his communication having been disregarded, took another course. He applied to the office at which the lecturer of the Socialists, who had attempted to corrupt his Sunday-school teacher, was employed as a clerk, and the rev. gentleman stated the result of his application in a letter which he (the Bishop of Exeter) had received from him that day. The rev. Gentleman said,—
" It will be satisfactory to your Lordship to learn that the clerk in the railroad office, who tried to corrupt my Sunday-school teacher, was, in consequence of my representations, immediately examined by the Board of Directors, and, as he avowed a resolute adherence to his principles, even declaring himself so utterly irresponsible for his conduct, that he should feel justified in robbing them, if he thought fit to do so, and that the law which would punish him was a bad law—he was dismissed from his situation."
However lightly the noble Viscount and the noble Marquess might consider these matters, it was, in his opinion, very important that they should be laid before the Government, and that the Government should take due notice of them. The noble Marquis, the Secretary for the Colonies, had, on a former occasion, stated that he thought the clergyman at that time alluded to had not acted properly in not giving information to him, and thus affording him an opportunity of discharging his duty, as he would have done if a proper representation had been made to him. He regretted that the noble Viscount did not appear to be actuated by the same feelings, for information was imparted to him, but he would not act on it. He did not doubt the sincerity of the noble Marquess in his determination to assert the law with effect; and, trusting that the noble Marquess would follow up the conduct he had promised, he would be content to present his petition, without further remarks, which was from Mile-end, praying the House to take steps for putting down Socialism.
The Marquess of Normanbyhad said, when the letter was read the other day, stating that an officer of the Government had been present at a place where he heard blasphemy, that it would have been better, that it would have been more natural, and more according to his duty, if the clergyman was aware of a servant of the

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Government holding and countenancing such opinions, had at once communicated them to him, and not have given what he confessed was his imperfect recollection of the facts six months afterwards. He would not have risen even to make that remark, had it not been to read to the House an extract from a letter he had received from the mayor of Leicester, which would prevent the ill effects from an exaggeration of facts which he must say were highly coloured. He had received the letter from the mayor of Leicester that morning, and it stated, that the number enrolled in the society of the Socialists, and subscribing money to the funds, did not exceed fifty in the whole town; there were, in addition, some two hundred candidates for admission, who were placed for some three or four months in a state of probation. There was only one place of meeting in the town, and that was in a room thirty feet square. During the past year meetings had been frequently held, which were attended out of curiosity by many persons. These meetings had attracted the attention of the magistrates, who had called upon the superintendent of police to attend them; he had attended, and had reported that everything was so orderly, that they were not likely to interfere with the public peace. How far the real security of the public peace of the town had been sufficiently attended to, would appear from the facts, but the House had a right to know the numbers enrolled in the society, and that the attention of the magistrates had been called to the subject.
The Bishop of Exetersaid, that from the information he had received, the number of members did not exceed 300 or 400, but there were hangers on, and "The population of my parish" said the clergyman, exceeding 30,000 souls, there is a large scope in it for the Socialists, who I fear are doing much mischief; they have Sunday meetings for lectures; and dances, not of the most decent kind, on Sunday evenings." There were many drinking copiously of the deleterious draught—meaning these blasphemous lectures—every Sunday, and yet it was said, that there were no instructions given to the police beyond an order to check illegal outward acts. Whilst he had pointed out that, in the end, these doctrines must lead to breaches of the peace, and to the disruption of society, yet he
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had expressly said, that, as yet there had been no violation of the peace; but there must be violation of the law with which scarcely any outrage or any violence could deserve to be mentioned in the same breath; and if there were not illegal acts, there were violations of the law, for the law of England was not so worthless, that it was not able to punish such blasphemy. He hoped, therefore, that the noble Viscount would tell that worshipful functionary, the mayor of Leicester, that he was bound to enforce the law by which blasphemy and immoral conduct was to be put down. Although the numbers enrolled might be but a few hundreds, yet if they exerted themselves they might in a large town produce very great effects. He had been told, that out of the sect of Unitarians there were no more than 300 or 400 in Leicester, and that out of that number the corporation was principally formed. He was told also, "The Socialists are about the same in number as the Unitarians, who have supplied mayors to the corporation ever since the passing of the Municipal Act." He did not mention this fact to interfere in any manner with the Unitarians of Leicester, or to cast any imputations on the mayors, but to show that 300 or 400 acting together, and working hard, might produce great effects.
Petition laid on the table.

INLAND WAREHOUSING—AFRICAN AND SOUTH AMERICAN TRADE.
Viscount Strangfordsaid, that when on a former evening he had asked the noble Viscount opposite, whether he had any objection to produce any communication from the Board of Trade or Treasury, or from any fiscal board, on the subject of the probable effect on the revenue of the proposed inland warehousing system, the noble Viscount answered, that such communications were unusual. Now, to show that they were not at all unusual, he held in his hand a communication of the 26th or August last, relative to certain sugars then in bond, in which the opinion of the Board of Customs was directly addressed to the Board of Trade. He would take that opportunity of giving notice, that on Monday next he should bring under the consideration of the House the disadvantages under which the British trade on the coast of Africa laboured at this moment. He had frequently called their

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Lordships' attention to this subject, and its importance, he conceived, justified him in bringing it forward again. With respect to the state of our trade in South America, he begged leave to read an extract of a letter from Buenos Ayres, which, as it came from a most intelligent quarter, was well worthy of attention. The writer said,
"There are 218 cargoes all ready for shipment to British ports, and the property of British subjects. They were all brought down for shipment in the natural belief that we had a Government at home that would succour and protect us, and put an end to this iniquitous blockade. These cargoes are daily perishing under our eyes, and will ultimately become worthless."
The writer then emphatically said, "I wish Lord Palmerston were here!" This was a state of things for which last Session the noble Viscount opposite gave hopes that some remedy would be provided, but for which this Session he told their Lordships, that there was no remedy at all; and, moreover, that it was a slate of things with respect to which he saw no prospect of a speedy alteration. Now, he would say, that it was a principle of the law of England, that there was no wrong without its corresponding remedy; and such also, he contended, was the principle of the law of nations. If the noble Viscount would descend from that lofty sphere which he so proudly occupied, and would deign to communicate with such persons as merchants and traders, and ask them what they thought of the protection afforded to their interests, and the general interests of the country, by the present Government, he would hear one, universal cry of censure and condemnation—he would find one wide-spread, general, unalloyed opinion, that at no former period were the vital interests of the country so frequently and so shamefully assailed. Why was this? It was because the Administration of which the noble Viscount was the head, was not respected abroad. And why was it not respected abroad? Because it was not feared. And why was it not feared? The answer to that query was to be found in the statements relative to our naval force which were recently made by a noble Lord, and also in the extraordinary estimate of what "constitutes," or rather, he would say, of what "does not constitute," the character of naval and military men,
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as it was explained by the noble Viscount on the occasion to which he had alluded.

COSTS AND DAMAGES FOR LIBEL.
Lord Denman Lord Denman laid on the table a bill, the object of which was to provide, that in all actions of libel or slander, where damages under 40 s. were awarded, such damages should not carry costs beyond the amount of the verdict. The noble and learned Lord observed, that this was a regulation of considerable importance, inasmuch as actions for small libels were constantly occurring, which were only introduced for the sake of the costs.
Bill read a first time.