Lords Sitting of 2 April 1840

MINUTES.
Bill. Read a third time:—Consolidated Fund.
Petitions presented. By the Marquess of Westminster and Lord Hatherton, from a great number of places, for, and
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by the Duke of Buckingham, the Earls of Hardwicke, and Haddington, and Lord Wharncliffe, from an immense number of places, against, the Repeal of the Corn-laws.—By the Earl of Rosebery, and Viscount Melbourne, from two places, against the Present System of Church Patronage, and against Granting any further power to the Clergy.—By Earl Delawar, from Heathfield, against the Grant to Maynooth, and for Church Extension.—By the Earl of Fitzwilliam, from Bilston, against Church Extension.

CORN LAWS.
The Duke of Buckingham, after presenting a number of petitions from Cornwall against any alteration in the existing Corn-laws, said, he would take the opportunity of expressing his regret at having seen what he had said respecting the payment of the labourer, misstated in a morning paper. It was stated there, that he said he thought the labourer was well paid at 9s. a week. That was not his opinion, and he had never so stated it. The more the labourer could get, the better satisfied he should be. He only hoped and trusted the Corn-laws would never be repealed, for if they were, the wages of the labourer would be reduced to a very small pittance.
The Marquess of Westminstersaid, the petitions which had been presented in favour of the Corn-laws, were many of them not very numerously signed, and a great many came under suspicious circumstances, as coming from the same parts of the country, the petition he had to present was of a different sort—it represented the opinions of a large community of Liverpool. If their Lordships had attended to the representations that had been given, they must be aware that great distress prevailed in the manufacturing districts. It was clearly predicted in 1815, by the noble Lord opposite (Ashburton), that such would be the result, and he was sorry to observe that the noble Lord had changed his correct opinions after his prophecies had been fulfilled. In 1828, the noble Lord (then Mr. Baring) said, that such a law would drive our manufacturers into foreign countries, and cause much distress at borne. He regretted that the noble Lord had now changed his opinions.
Lord Ashburtonsaid, that if the noble Marquess had made a motion on the subject of the Corn-laws, he should have been very glad to discuss the question with him. The noble Marquess, however, had been pleased to talk of him (Lord Ashburton)as a "sentinel," and the noble Marquess took care, that from day to day he should keep that sentinel on the qui

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vive. The House would therefore excuse him if he offered a few words in reference to his alleged change of opinion. In 1825 he had certainly taken a strong part in the House of Commons in a proposition which was then made for augmenting what was called the protecting duties on corn. He might have used on that occasion expressions strongly indicative of his apprehension of over-stretching such protection, and he should observe that the fashion of the House of Commons, at that time, was to go into extremes on such subjects. The question, however, at that time was not a repeal, but an increase on the protecting duty of from 66 s. to 80 s. Many Gentlemen in the House of Commons even thought that 80 s. was not sufficient, and especially Sir Henry Parnell, who expressed as his opinion that 125 s. would be a fair protecting duty. Sir Henry Parnell, however, he believed, was now in favour of an alteration in the existing laws. If he had also changed his opinion on the subject, it would not be the first time that he had done so on subjects of greater importance, and he should not have the slightest hesitation in admitting such change in the House. If at any time he had thought that the protecting duty which had been established was working ill for the great interests of the country, he should be the first to express such an opinion. He should be certainly sorry to see an extreme protection on corn—he should be sorry to see that protection raised beyond what it was at present. If there had been a proposition to take into consideration any particular scale of duty, he would not say that he should be unwilling to enter on the consideration of that subject, but he was not willing to enter on the consideration of it with persons who were totally hostile to the protection of our agriculture. When the question came regularly under consideration he would state his reasons for maintaining the system as it existed, and for thinking that it had worked well, even for the manufacturers, who were represented as so much injured by it. The noble Marquess opposite had great objections to fluctuations in prices, and the noble Marquess spoke of that as one of the greatest evils of the Corn-laws. But it was proved by a paper which had lately been laid before the House of Commons that, from 1815 to 1838, the fluctuations in Prussia, Poland, Westphalia, Sweden, Bordeaux, Riga, and
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Trieste, had been double the extent of those in England during the same years. He would now only apologise to the House for having so long detained them.
The Earl of Radnorsaid, that when an individual of the eminence of the noble Lord gave expression to such a variety of opinions—to such unaccountable alterations of opinion—it was no wonder that he should be kept a little on the qui vive. The noble Lord said, that he thought the existing laws had worked well, and he said also, that he should have no objection to canvass the question, if some proposition were brought forward by parties who were not hostile to all protection to agriculture. If the noble Lord thought that the Corn-laws had worked well, what was the necessity for canvassing them? But the noble Lord had previously entertained very different opinions on this important question. In 1815 he had delivered a speech which contained the expression of opinions entirely opposed to those which were now advocated both by him and by the whole body of the supporters of the present Corn-laws. One of the principles laid down in that speech was contained in the following sentence:—" No Government ever went on so absurd a principle as to force an independent supply." Now, in the course of the remarks made by the noble Duke (Richmond) the other night, in which he attempted to inflict a severe castigation upon him, he had expressly stated, that that was the very thing the advocates of the Corn-law wanted. Other opinions expressed by the noble Lord (Ashburton) in 1815 were directly opposed to the opinions which he now held. In 1828, also, the noble Lord had expressed himself very strongly opposed to protection. He then said, "that he could not think how it was possible that any reasonable man could talk about protection to corn, wool, and other articles, when the difference in the price of bread between this and other countries varied from 25 s. to 64 s." He also said, that the experience of Holland ought to have given a lesson to this country. But now the noble Lord entertained very different opinions and talked in a very different manner. He was in the constant habit of receiving letters which detailed to him the lamentable distress which prevailed in the manufacturing districts. The accounts of such distress, he was sure, would harass the minds of their

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Lordships. A small tradesman of Manchester, who frequently communicated to him on the subject, and whose letters, though their writer was entirely a self-taught man, were very interesting, told him plainly the state of things which then prevailed. This man, in one of such letters, had said, "The newspapers will tell me that things are getting better; I will tell you that they are getting worse." He also stated facts which spoke for themselves. He told him that "machine-makers were beginning to work half-work," and also, "that lately in this town a large manufacturer had dismissed 250 men." The noble Lord (Ashburton) had formerly stated, that the principles which he then supported were founded on reason and experience, and he then predicted a state of things which have since come to pass; and, having done so, how could he now get up and say those arguments were fallacious, and that on the whole the present Corn-laws had worked well? Let them look to the accounts from the manufacturing districts, and let them see how the present system had worked, and then say whether it had worked well. He would say one word respecting a paper which had been put into his hand since he had entered the House. It was a paper which demanded a good deal of inquiry and consideration; but he thought that even at first sight, he was able to answer the arguments which might be deduced from the facts which it unfolded. From this paper it appeared that there was only one country in which the variations of price were less than in this country. He would tell their Lordships that the variations of price, even in other countries, were owing to our system of Corn-laws. It was not to be supposed that their effect was only felt in England. Every country with which they carried on commercial intercourse—every nation having a commercial connexion with ourselves, suffered from their injurious effects. The majority of these countries, too, in which there was so great a fluctuation of prices, were exporting countries. The only country in which the variation was less was a country which never thought of exporting at all, and that country was Sweden. It was evident—and this fact was in a great measure attributable to our present fluctuating Corn-laws—the more a country exported, the greater were the variations
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in its prices. He thought that he had explained the grounds why this country was not so fluctuating in its prices as others, and he felt assured that no argument in favour of the present Corn-laws could be drawn from that fact.
Lord Ashburtonwas sorry to detain the House on any matter personal to himself, and regretted that any opinions which he might have delivered years ago should occupy their Lordships' attention; but as a serious charge of inconsistency had been brought against him, he felt bound, in justice to himself, in justice to his own opinions, and injustice to their Lordships, to answer, as shortly as possible, the charge then made. He, in the first place, did not hold himself answerable for the reports of the speeches which had been read by the noble Lord; but this he would confess, that he believed, that in 1815 he had used some such arguments as those referred to against any increased protection upon agriculture. He believed that on the introduction of the bill of 1815, in the House of Commons, he had then felt it to be his duty to speak and vote with the minority—a minority of about thirty to nearly 600—against what was called "over-protection." He, however, did believe that he had used such expressions as had been quoted in 1828. This, however, he would confidently say, that neither when the present law was introduced, nor at any other time—and on this point he felt quite confident—had he ever expressed any opinion adverse to the principle of protection. The noble Lord had rather misrepresented his present opinion on the Corn-laws. He never had been, nor was he at the present time, a person of extreme opinions as to protection. He looked with extreme anxiety on the question, watching, at the same time, the effects on commerce and our manufactures which protection had and was likely to produce. He was sorry to detain the House on the subject, as he did not in any measure set himself up as an authority upon it, but he had been compelled to answer the personal charge brought against him. He was quite ready to listen calmly and dispassionately to a proposal of any alteration. For his own part, be would have no objection to go into committee with the opponents of the present Corn Laws and consider the facts and arguments drawn from them which they might bring for-

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ward. But still he must express his opinion that the measure had, on the whole, worked well. As to the petition which had been presented by the Noble Marquess, he would say that he had habitually a great respect for petitions from the people, but that respect was in a great measure diminished on the present subject, considering the agitation which had aroused the country. Every means had been used to procure petitions and to obtain from the body of the people expressions of opinions adverse to the present system. Lecturers were sent through the country, meetings were held, the distress of the mercantile world exaggerated, and these unfair and unconstitutional means were adopted for the purpose of loading the tables of Parliament with petitions against the Corn Laws. Petitions thus obtained could not be expected to receive that consideration and to bear with them that weight to which they would be otherwise entitled. The commercial distress which existed might in a great measure arise from the derangement of the currency, but such distress had been much exaggerated. The manufactures of this country had during the last few years much increased. In 1839 the exports had increased to the amount of two millions; and the cotton manufactures, which were represented to have suffered so severely, had increased a million in the course of a year. The facts, therefore, failed his Noble Friend, and with him, all the opponents of the Corn Laws. Looking also at the steadiness of prices in this compared with other countries, it was impossible to say that the system had not worked well. The paper referred to by the noble Lord, which had been produced, not by an agriculturist, but by those entirely opposed to all protection, clearly established this. He felt called upon again to express his regret at having thus detained their Lordships, and in conclusion moved for some returns showing the average prices of wheat, oats, and barley in this and other countries, and for some other papers connected with the subject, the details of which did not reach us.
The Earl of Haddingtonsaid their Lordships need not fear that he should prolong this discussion. The great importance of this question was-a reason why it ought not to be discussed in this desultory manner. It was unfair to the question itself, and inconvenient to the House, to pursue the
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present course. If any noble Lord thought it desirable that a formal discussion upon the corn laws should take place, why not give notice of a resolution, or adopt some other mode of bringing the subject regularly before their Lordships for debate? No doubt the natural course would be, supposing that there was any expectation of a bill on the subject coming up from the other House, to wait for that bill; but, in the non-arrival of such a bill, he saw no reason why their Lordships should not discuss a question of major importance like this. He must, however, protest against the present mode of discussing it, because he perceived that night after night great inconvenience was occasioned by it, and that noble Lords could not in this way do justice either to themselves or to their opponents. The noble Marquess opposite, on a former night, read a speech to convince his noble Friend that he was guilty of some inconsistency in his opinions, and that night he had read a great deal out of a newspaper 25 years old—[The Marquess of Westminster. A newspaper of 1828.]—He begged the noble Marquess's pardon, the paper was only 12 years old. But no sooner did his noble Friend state what his opinions were now, and the different situation of matters now, than up got his other noble Friend (the Earl of Radnor,) and proceeded to read a long debate on the corn laws, from a newspaper printed a quarter of a century ago, in order that his noble Friend, whose opinions were of the greatest importance on this as well as on other subjects, might be convinced that he has altered his opinions. If there had been any change or opinion on the part of the noble Baron on this subject, he thought the great weight and support of his authority should hardly have led the noble Earl to believe that change or modification could have been lightly made. A noble Earl, who had sat some years ago for the borough of Downton, then voted against Parliamentary reform, but afterwards in that House he was an eager supporter of that measure. He was not aware that the noble Earl was or ought to be attacked on that ground, but it might serve as an answer to his attacks on others for changing their opinions.
Petition laid on the table.

ANGLO-SPANISH LEGION.
The Marquess of Londonderrysaid that, having given notice of his intention to bring this

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subject before the House, he now rose to perform that duty, to which he had been appointed by the officers of the Spanish legion. The officers of that much-injured body had appointed him, who, humble an individual as he was, felt deeply interested in their affairs and had always watched narrowly over their interests, to present the petitions which laid open their grievances, and which asked for the kindly consideration of their Lordships; and he thought, considering the deep interests involved, that the House would forgive him for pressing the case of these officers on its most serious attention. He held in his hand two petitions from the officers of the British auxiliary legion—those officers who had in vain endeavoured to obtain their rights—who had so long continued to struggle against those grievances into which they had treacherously been led, and for which they were now unable to obtain compensation or redress. He could not better state the views of these officers than by reading their petitions, which he would now have the honour of laying upon their Lordship's table. Of these two petitions, one was signed by 300 officers. The signatures to this one were affixed by an agent, who had been intrusted with powers of attorney for the purpose. The other petition was signed by 180 officers, who had each attached his own name. They were both, however, signed by officers of the highest rank, by brigadier-generals, captains—in fact, by all the officers of various ranks, from the highest to the lowest in the legion. The petition stated as follows, and he would claim at their Lordships' hands, after the reading of the petition, an answer to the question whether one single point could be urged against the demand which was made by these unfortunate officers, and whether they had not a clear and decided claim upon those Ministers who had urged them into the service, who had pressed them to engage in the conflict, by promises of present encouragement and future reward, and who, according to his opinion, stood in the position—if they were unable to compel the payment by the Spanish Government of these just claims—of being themselves bound, by every sense of justice and honour, to make them good. If a Government once gave a guarantee, they were bound on every consideration to carry it into effect. The present Administration had induced these men to engage in this
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unfortunate service, and they were strictly bound either to exercise their influence with the Spanish Government immediately to meet the just demands of these deluded men, or themselves to satisfy their claims. The noble Marquess here read the petition, which, after giving a detailed statement of the claims of the petitioners, concluded by asking redress at the hands of their Lordships. That was the petition from the officers who had signed through the agent, by means of the power of attorney. The other was a petition to the same effect, signed by those officers who had affixed their own names. He would not trouble their Lordships with reading it. He was very unwilling to detain the House on this subject at any great length, but the circumstances of the case pressed themselves on attention, and demanded a full and fair inquiry into the claims which were set up, He was most desirous too, of bringing the subject before their Lordships, as a gallant Officer had come forward in another place, and had stated his intention of introducing the question. That gallant Officer to whom he referred, had not previously intended to bring the question forward. No doubt acting under the influence of a very refined delicacy, he had been desirous of allowing the question to remain undisturbed, but now, as stated, believing that the government of Spain was in a more organised condition, he had determined to bring it forward. Why he had thus long held back—why he so long refrained from urging on the Government the just claims of his fellow-officers, it was not for him to say. He would read to their Lordships a letter from Sir De Lacy Evans to the general officers of the legion, and their Lordships would then see that the grounds which had been stated, and the arguments urged by him four years ago, were now borne out by the facts which were then stated. Reading that letter, and hearing those facts, it was impossible for noble Lords to look at the case fairly and with justice, and to deny the claims of these officers to the pay, and the gratuities which they demanded. This letter, which he would read, was a very remarkable one, for it stated the opinions of the writer; and their Lordships must recollect that the writer was no less a man than Sir De Lacy Evans. On the whole service—a service which, however contemptible, and of which nothing remained but its wreck,

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would still live in the remembrance of Englishmen, not willingly inclined to forget how improperly the service of their countrymen had been directed, and how basely the army of their country had been disgraced. That was a letter addressed by Sir De Lacy Evans to all the general officers under his command, and it was dated in 1836:—
(Copy.)
"Head Quarters, San Sebastian, Nov. 1836.
"Sir,—I beg to acknowlege the receipt of your letter, representing to me the distressing state of our officers and men from the long accumulating arrears of pay due to them—the painful wants they are exposed to—the pre-cariousness of supplies in our present isolated position, and the dangerous and discreditable results which may be apprehended from a continuance of these circumstances.
"It is impossible for you to feel more poignantly on this subject than I do, and it is but justice to myself to take this opportunity of stating, that I did not accept of the appointment proposed to me of forming and commanding the corps, until I had received earnest and repeated assurances from the Spanish Ambassador, General Alava; the Minister of Finance, L. Mendizabal; the then Minister of War, the Duke Ahumado; and the Prime Minister, Count Toreno, that the engagements towards the troops in regard to their pay and allowances should be 'most exactly and religiously fulfilled,' and with 'rigorous punctuality,' and also that magagines of provisions should be formed exclusively for the legion at Bilboa, Vittoria, and San Sebastian. Such were the strong assurances and unqualified promises under which I was led to undertake this (to me at least) very arduous task.
"If, then, the officers or men complain of being disappointed or deceived, I have not been less so; doubtless, however, a part of this failure of engagement must be attributed rather to the unforeseen political difficulties of the country than to intentional want of good faith. But it must still be a matter of surprise or regret that we should have been subjected to so much greater privations and neglect than the national army, which could so much better have borne them, than young, but especially young British troops.
"It is now nearly a year during which the legion has been abandoned to this condition of distress; inefficiency, disease, disorganization, desertion, retirement of numerous officers, and even mutiny have been amongst the consequences. No efforts on my part, which my humble ability could suggest, have been wanting to obtain relief—at one time the deplorable destitution of the legion, at other times, the scarcity or precarious supply of provisions or clothing, have been sources to me
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of constant anxiety. Her Majesty's successive Ministers have, no doubt, been annoyed and disgusted with my unceasing importunities, nor have I been less so with myself, in being forced to adopt a course so foreign to my feelings and habits, so irksome, and I must almost say degrading. In these unavoidable remonstrances I have even incurred the personal displeasure of her Majesty, the Queen Regent, but there was no alternative. Thus situated, I have no personal motive for continuing my own services in this country, or for endeavouring to persuade others to do so. In fact, with regard to myself, I have frequently declared my inability to contend with these difficulties, and as frequently have submitted the expediency of selecting some one to replace me, more capable of executing this duty, for I have felt, and continue to feel, my position as a most painful and thankless one; suffering from neglect, with little support, exposed to an unprecedented and rancorous political hostility, and with a peculiar responsibility, imposed on me, heavier than any Government has a right to expect any individual to bear.
"Finding my constant applications by letter unavailing, I have several times sent officers to Madrid to remonstrate personally, but each of these missions has failed, and the last more signally than any of the preceding. The royal decree issued on the occasion, indicating the sums of money to be remitted, remain in fact a dead letter, not more than a mere fraction of the amount having reached us, consequently we are nearly one thousand pounds more in arrear than when the last application was made.
"But, if I have encouraged the troops by assurances of my belief that justice would be done them, thus, perhaps, incurring some additional moral responsibility, it was not merely from the assurances given by the Spanish Government, but from the conviction that the responsibility eventually and really rests with our own Government, under whose auspices, and at whose desire, and that of our own Sovereign, we have entered this service. This has appeared to me obvious, and that an an appeal to this quarter as the last resort, to cause the past claims of the troops to be satisfied, and the future to be guaranteed, would be acceded to; and especially to secure the compensations for wounds, and the pensions of the widows of those killed in action.
"We have also to solicit assistance in regard to a supply of rations, and of fuel and lights for the coming winter, a failure in which, even from day to day, we are menaced with from the commissariat having no funds.
"It is therefore obvious that the time has fully arrived for making this appeal to the British Government, it being no longer possible to place the smallest reliance on the promises on which we have hitherto counted.
"I therefore proceed to represent to the

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proper quarters this final view of our situation, nor can I doubt of its favourable result, since the amount in question is quite inconsiderable, in a national point of view, and the British Government cannot have the slightest difficulty in securing the repayment, for instance, on the revenues, or a colony, whoever may form the Ministry or Government of Spain.
"I have thought it but fair, in my own justification, and for your full information on the matter, to remind you of these circumstances, in reply to your letter. I have the honour to be, Sir, your most obedient and most humble servant,
(Signed) "De L. EVANS.
"To Brigadier General—."
That was the mature expression of Sir De Lacy Evans's opinion on this subject to the unfortunate officers who were now suffering from the injustice of the Spanish Government, and who had been encouraged to enter that service by him as well as by the noble Earl, the British ambassador, by Colonel Wilde, and her Majesty's Government, to expect that these claims should be fully satisfied. But these officers and men were not politicians; they could not judge whether the Government had a right to give such a guarantee. Those officers had entered the service only anxious to "brave the battle and the breeze;" and he had been one of them who in that House had protested against the employment of these troops; but that was no reason why, now that he saw them abandoned and wronged, he should not stand up and humbly endeavour to advocate their just claims. If the Government still assured them that they were exerting their influence with the Spanish Government for the purpose of obtaining redress, he would answer that by reading to their Lordships an extract from a letter of a high authority at Madrid, whose signature he could give if it were necessary, but he was quite sure that the noble Earl, if he heard the name, would admit that the letter came from a very high authority, with respect to these particular claims. The noble Marquess read the extract, in which the writer said,
"That the Spanish Government, he was persuaded, did not intend to liquidate the claims of the legion; it was a child of Mendizabal's; that party was now out of power, and with those who were in it, was anything but a favourite. Did he imagine that they cared one straw for the legion's claims? If so, he was mistaken, and might abandon that idea altogether."
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That document came from Madrid, and in the face of such communications, it was not possible that he could credit the assertions which were made. But the noble Viscount came down to that House and moved a vote for the high services of that admirable officer who served her Majesty in Canada; and he could assure the House, that no man felt more strongly how well that vote was deserved than he did; but if the noble Viscount was obliged to admit that these officers and men, whose claims he now pressed upon the House, had been employed in a service not less difficult, and attended with much greater misery and deprivation, it was almost impossible to conceive that he should allow them to remain without the pay which they had so hardly earned. The sum certainly was not large; and though it might be said by some of his noble Friends, that there were then claimants who deserved precedence, he replied, that there were none who had exposed their lives as those men had upon the faith of assurances given by their own Government. If the noble Viscount became security for another who afterwards was unable to pay the debt, the noble Viscount, as an honourable roan, would think himself bound to pay. Ought he not, then, to carry into effect the guarantee which virtually the Government had given; or if they had no right to guarantee the payment of those claims, was he not bound to press them with determination upon the Spanish Government? It was impossible that the noble Viscount should say that the Spanish Government was unable on account of its poverty to liquidate these demands. That would be absurd, because they had seen what the Queen of Spain had said in her speech, and there was nothing at all about a want of means there. They had voted to Espartero God knew what—something like an annuity of 10,00 l. That must be charged upon something, and yet the troops of this Duke of Vittoria had not done or suffered half, of what had befallen these unfortunate men. He could not believe that General Alava himself could be perfectly happy and satisfied with the present state of this question, seeing the soldiers bringing day after day their petitions before Parliament as the place of last resort in which they could hope for justice. He had taken up this subject from a paramount sense of the fairness of these claims. Many noble

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Lords did not feel the same interest in it—they had not served with these officers as he had done—they could not enter into the feelings of a British soldier as to this deprivation of their pay. Many might say that they had been well served for entering into such a service, or that the Government could not guarantee to them the payment of their debt, and that the House of Lords had nothing to do with the matter; but they were obliged, with reluctance, to appeal to that House and to Parliament, as a tribunal of justice of the last resort. They had attempted in vain to obtain redress elsewhere, and information now had been handed to them that none would be given. They appealed, therefore, to that House, and that was an appeal which they could not resist; nothing could be said against their demand. The time had now arrived for pressing their claims, Sir De Lacy Evans having at length come forward with his letter, and intimated his intention of introducing a motion on the subject. When that gallant Officer did that after Easter in the other House, he certainly should second him in that House, either by moving an address to her Majesty, praying her to give effect to these claims, or in some other mode; and it was impossible, in his view of the matter, that the Government, or any noble Lords around him, could resist so just a claim. The noble Earl (Clarendon) might think him tedious, but there was another point to which he was anxious to allude. He had a case to make out; that case must go before the public; and though it might not be deemed of interest in that House, he would tell the noble Earl, that when the whole case was submitted to the public, and when it was known that four hundred British officers could not get their pay, a very general feeling would be excited in their favour, and the greatest disgust would be felt at the course which her Majesty's Government had taken. He could tell the noble Earl, that he would hear through that ordeal and that channel, which was a pretty good signal generally of the feeling of the country, how this transaction would be viewed, and that the injustice of it would be deeply felt, he had no doubt. He believed that the proceeding throughout, and especially that commission which had been appointed, would be regarded most properly as a mere manœuvre, utterly despicable, and unworthy of the Spanish Government, and
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of all who had been connected with it. The noble Earl had on a former occasion challenged him to say why he had not sent to Mr. Dundas or to General Alava for his information, but it was not natural that he should send to them; but he had gone to an individual who was as well able to give him the information, and whose testimonials were unexceptionable. And, with reference both to those testimonials and to the statement which he had delivered to him (the Marquess of Londonderry), he ventured to say that nothing could be said against Mr. Bradburn. However, as the matter was of some importance to that gentleman, he would read to their Lordships a copy of a letter to Mr. Bradburn from Sir De Lacy Evans:—
"Copy of a letter from Lieutenant-General Sir George De Lacy Evans to Thomas Bradburn, Esq., dated Bryanston-sqnare, Dec. 19, 1838;—
"Dear Sir—In reply to your request, desiring my opinion of your fitness for the office of Secretary to the Artesian Company, I cannot hesitate in assuring you of the high sense I entertain of the exertions, ability, and intelligence you have displayed in promoting the claims of the numerous officers of the British Legion for whom you have been agent, and that from what I have witnessed of your conduct, your clear knowledge of business, influential address, temper, and high integrity of character, would render you a most valuable acquisition as secretary to any public body engaged in a commercial enterprise.
"Although I should much regret that anything should withdraw you from the business you have now in hand, in which your services are so justly appreciated, be assured that anything to your personal advantage will be heard of with much satisfaction by, dear Sir, your very faithful and obedient servant,
(Signed) "De L. EVANS.
"Thomas Bradburn, Esq., 30, Eaton-street, Pimlico."
There was another testimonial which he would read to their Lordships; it was a letter from Dr. Williams, the physician to the Spanish embassy:—
"From Dr. Williams, Physician to the Spanish Embassy, to Thomas Bradburn, Esq.. dated Dec. 8, 1838.
"Dear Sir—Although any opinion of mine may not have much weight in the obtaining of your wishes, perhaps that of General Alava, the Spanish Ambassador, may; I therefore feel no hesitation in staling, that his Excellency has expressed himself in the most favourable terms towards you in relation to your exertions in favour of the legion claimants, and has given good proof of his confidence by

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desiring me to announce to you, that he intends appointing you his private agent should he require one. This from a man of the General's rank and high character is a compliment indeed, and one to which I believe you are very justly entitled, for to your perseverance arid activity we are much indebted for the commission appointed to examine and adjust the claims.
"Believe me, dear Sir, yours, &c, (Signed) "THOMAS WILLIAMS, M, D."
He hoped that he might be permitted to receive information from a gentleman who was introduced to him with such testimonials, without being liable to the charge that he went to the high-ways and by-ways for his information. He had not sought the trouble of advocating these claims; but he had not chosen to refuse his humble exertions in their cause, because it would have been ungenerous to do so. In discharging that duty, however, he went not into the high-ways and by-ways to get his information; he was not one of that class. The individual came to him, laid his statement before him, and produced his testimonials; and when the noble Earl said, that that was not creditable information for him to use as a Peer of Parliament. [The Earl of Clarendon: What is the date of General Evans's letter?] It was dated the 19th of December, 1838. He had submitted these testimonials to the House, because the matter was of importance to the individual; and because they showed that he had good grounds for relying upon the information which he had received. Now the statement of Mr. Bradburn was this:—
"Military and General Agency Office, 30, Lower Eaton-street, Pimlico, March, 1840.
"My Lord—Having been the principal, if not the only, agent employed by the legion claimants on the Spanish government, I am compelled to take, as applying to me, the observations made by the Earl of Clarendon, in a recent debate in the House of Lords, on the occasion of your Lordship bringing forward the case of the claimants; but, with permission, I feel quite confident, that I shall be able not only to show, that the character so truly drawn by the noble Earl is not one to which I have the slightest claim, but, unfortunately for his Lordship's information, it so correctly describes the parties whom he has taken under his protection, namely, the Spanish authorities, their commission, and the commissioners' clerk or interpreter, as to leave no one at all acquainted with their acts in doubt; for, unless I on the one hand
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completely exonerate myself from any of the charges, and on the other fail to prove that the parties I have now alluded to are those with not much knowledge but with a large infusion of the spirit of mischief, who for the sake of their own paltry emoluments, are most anxious that the labours of the commission should not be cut short'—(those were the words of the noble Earl himself in that House)—your Lordship shall be at perfect liberty to withdraw that confidence which you have hitherto reposed in my statements.
"When your Lordship did me the honour to make inquiries as to the claims of the legion, you must be aware, that all the information required, I immediately and freely afforded—not certainly from any factious motives, as implied, but solely for the purpose of benefitting my unfortunate clients, and of putting your Lordship in possession of important facts, I at the same time remarking, that I did not blame Viscount Palmerston for the apparent apathy exhibited by his Lordship, feeling certain that he had not been informed of the disgraceful conduct pursued towards the claimants by the commission. I am equally confident, that your Lordship will do me the justice to admit, that at the lime I furnished the list of superior officers rewarded by her Majesty's Ministers for their services in Spain, in connection with the legion, that I did so as an evidence that the Government having in such a manner noticed those services, they were equally bound to see justice done to the subordinate officers and men, by demanding from Spain an immediate settlement of their so hardly-earned claims.
"Under the circumstances stated, it was, therefore, with deep mortification and astonishment I heard from Lord Clarendon, not only a disclaimer of the several charges which I had considered it my duty to make through your Lordship, but such a statement of the constitution and working of the commission in every way so directly contrary to truth, that I should be forgetful of what is due to you, my Lord; to the public, which has always sympathised with us; and to myself, did I omit to notice and to refute such statements. Not that for a moment I mean to insinuate, that my Lord Clarendon had intentionally given any colouring to the transaction, his Lordship did not conscientiously believe he was warranted in doing from the information he had received, nor can I remain much in doubt from whence that information emanated, namely, from either the Spanish authorities or the commission.
"In the teeth, therefore, of Lord Clarendon's statements and disclaimers, I solemnly reiterate the charges made by your Lordship.
"1stly. I state that contracts have been agreed to or broken as it suited the purposes of the commission.
"2dly. I state that pensions, medical boards, and compensations for wounds, have been re fused without just grounds.

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"3dly. I state that decisions of the War Office in favour of several of the claimants were kept back, and not acknowledged until the truth was forced from the commissioners, by dread of exposure through the public press.
"4thly. I state that pay has been allowed to some officers who had no claim to it, and withheld from others who had the British regulations to support them in their application.
"5thly. I state that gratuity has been denied, to several who had done good service, and given to others who had been dismissed, or retired without leave. And I now as unequivocally deny (having documentary and other indisputable evidence to produce in support of my assertion) the following statements made by Lord Clarendon:—
"1st. I deny that the accounts of the legion were of a complicated character.
"2d. I deny that the commission had proceeded in the examination of these accounts with the most complete good faith.
"3d. I deny that the commission considered that no more claims would be brought forward when they issued an order for its closing.
"4th. I deny that any advertisements have ever been inserted in either Ireland or Scotland (where the greater number of the men of the legion were raised) announcing the sitting of the commission, although, strange to say, a small number of placards were sent to those countries for distribution, giving a few days' notice of its close.
"5th. I deny that no remonstrance was made by any of the superior officers of the legion, as the protest which I considered it my duty to make to Sir De Lacy Evans against the closing of the commission on the 6th of September, was by that gallant officer immediately forwarded to Viscount Palmerston, and the means of causing its extension to the 30th of the same month.
"6th. I deny that Mr. Rutherford Alcock was selected or appointed by the legion, or possesses in any way the confidence of the claimants.
"7th. I deny that the Spanish commissioner has been long a resident in London, or is at all acquainted with the English language, or our mode of conducting business, in corroboration of which he has been obliged to employ a clerk or interpreter, a Mr. Castaneda, to whom many of the obstacles and annoyances experienced by the claimants are to be attributed.
"8th. I deny that every point on which the referees decided was submitted to the War Office.
"9th. I deny that the commission has given satisfaction to the great majority of the claimants.
"10th. I deny that the commission was open at the time stated by Lord Clarendon.
"Nay more, my Lord, I charge the Spanish Authorities with having had an intention of
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defrauding all those whose claims were not presented before the 30th of September, 1839; which intention they would have carried into effect, had it not been for my humble endeavours to prevent it, in which I was ably supported by Sir De Lacy Evans, who I have no hesitation in referring to for the -truth of the statements which I have made, the documents in support of several of which I had submitted to him long since. Should, therefore, the Government, Lord Clarendon, the Spanish Ambassador, or the commission require me to prove what I have advanced, I am quite ready and willing to enter the lists with any of them, or all, and with truth and justice at my side, backed by your Lordship's support and public sympathy, I little fear the result.
"In order that your Lordship may be aware of the steps which have been taken to keep open the commission and protect the interests of the unfortunate claimants, I take leave to enclose copies of the correspondence which passed at the time between Sir De Lacy Evans, Mr. Commissioner Alcock, and myself; and your Lordship will now be enabled to judge whether I am deserving of the epithets intended to apply to me by Lord Clarendon, or entitled to some consideration for having suggested that (through Sir De Lacy Evans) which his Lordship is so very desirous to give Viscount Palmerston the entire credit of doing; at the same time that I should be guilty of injustice to the noble Secretary for Foreign Affairs, and my own feelings, did I not acknowledge that on every occasion when I have had to address his Lordship, suggesting any points having for their object the interests of the claimants, I have always been met by a general desire to assist, and remove, as much. as possible, any obstacles which presented themselves towards an arrangement of the claims."
That letter concluded with a compliment to himself, which it was not necessary that he should state to their Lordships. He had been furnished with a variety of documents which corroborated every part of that statement. He would hand over those documents to the noble Earl that he might look over them, and that they might be published, and the grounds be known upon which the statement was made. It might be necessary also to produce two other documents—one, a warrant signed by Colonel Wylde and General Tena, and the other a declaration of the officers of the legion as to the guarantee which had been given by the British Government. The warrant was this:—
"We, the undersigned commissioners, acting for and on behalf of her Most Catholic Majesty Isabella 2nd., do hereby authorise

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Captain and Paymaster Maher to estimate, and draw pay (according to the British regulations), for each and every officer of the late British auxiliary legion, who was borne on the strength of the Royal Irish regiment, on the 10th day of June, 1837, and to continue to estimate for and pay the said officers, wherever they may be, according to their respective ranks, in the aforesaid regiment, up to the date on which the Spanish government shall finally arrange the liquidation of their claims, either by negotiable bills of exchange, payable in London, or cash payments (saving and excepting such officers as have re-entered her Most Catholic Majesty's service in the new legion). And we further authorise the sum of nine pounds sterling to be credited to such officers who may not be able to procure a free passage from San Sebastian to England. In witness whereof we affix our signatures.
(Signed) "JUAN TENA,
W. WYI.DE, COL."
"Dated San Sebastian, July, 1837."
He would now read to their Lordships the declaration of the officers:—.
"We, the undersigned officers of the late British Auxiliary Legion of Spain, do affirm that we were present at a meeting of officers, held in San Sebastian, in or about July, 1837, when, to the best of our knowledge, Colonel Wylde assured the meeting, ' in his double capacity of British commissioner, as well as a member of the Spanish commission then sitting, that the claims of the officers should be fully satisfied, if they would remain quiet.' This assurance having been held out to the officers, they immediately ceased their importunities, feeling convinced that the honour of the British Government was pledged to see full justice and satisfaction rendered them."
The noble Viscount had stated on former occasions, that the Government would make every exertion to secure the payment of these claims, but mere words and declarations would not feed these unfortunate men or support their families; and, after the delay which had taken place, he should feel bound to submit some motion on the subject, but he would not do so until after Easter, because he supposed, that the declaration which the noble Viscount had made in that House on the part of the Government was founded on some documents; and he trusted, that there would be no objection to produce them if he moved for them.
Viscount Melbourne: Yon must give notice. I can't accede to it now.
The Marquess of Londonderry: I'll read the motion, and then I do not think there can be any objection to it.
The Earl of Clarendon: You must give notice.
The Marquess of Londonderrythought that it was one of the things that passed as a matter of course. The motion would be for copies of any correspondence between her Majesty's Government and the Court of Madrid, expressing the anxious solicitude of her Majesty's Government, that the claims and arrears, due from the Spanish government to the British legion should be liquidated.
Viscount Melbourne: I can't give them.
The Marquess of Londonderry: Then I give notice that I shall move for them to-morrow, and I hope that the noble Viscount will not object to produce them.
Viscount Melbourne: Yes, but I do object to it.
The Marquess of Londonderrysaid, that he would now conclude by expressing his regret, that he had so long; detained the House; but he had felt it his duty to lay the case as completely as possible before the country, and to intimate his intention at a future day of pressing these claims upon their Lordships' sense of justice, so that at all events the public and the country might be made acquainted with the real nature and character of the transaction.
The Earl of Clarendonsaid, that notwithstanding the importance ascribed by the noble Marquess to the details with which he had favoured their Lordships, he could not but think, and he believed that most of their Lordships would be of the same opinion, that the time of the House was too often needlessly taken up by those matters, with which in reality their Lordships had very little to do, and for the settlement of which they could do very little. He would certainly admit, that some degree of consideration should be shown to the motives of the noble Marquess in bringing the subject before them, because a short time ago he voluntarily supplied an answer to the charge which he thought their Lordships resolved on making, as to the dogged consistency, if he might use that phrase, with which the noble Marquess had persevered in bringing forward those matters, when he assured their Lordships, that it was entirely owing to the irrepressible gratitude which he had received on a recent occasion from the Spanish authorities and the Spanish people, not excluding, he supposed, the fair inmates of that nunnery at Seville into

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which the noble Marquess had told their Lordships on a former occasion, that be had obtained admission. He was only sorry that the noble Marquess would not have an opportunity of paying the last instalment of his debt of gratitude, for the noble Marquess had just informed their Lordships, that it was his intention to second the motion which was to be brought forward next month in the House of Commons by Sir De Lacy Evans. [The Marquess of Londonderry: I said that I would bring on a similar motion here.] He was sorry to hear that, both for the sake of the House and for the sake of the people of Spain; for they were so blind to the object of all the noble Marquess's efforts, that they absolutely considered him as the inveterate enemy of Spain, all but the Carlists, who, he was inclined to think, would not, after his speech of that night, any longer consider the noble Marquess as their champion. However, let the motives of the noble Marquess be what they might—whether the noble Marquess meant to do good to the Legion, or whether he meant to do harm to her Majesty's Government—still he imagined that their Lordships might think that some answer ought to be given to the noble Marquess's remarks. He felt, that he should consult the patience of their Lordships best, not by following the noble Marquess point by point through his long list of denials, but by narrating the important facts of the case as clearly and concisely as he could. He should like, however, in the first place, to know on what terms the noble Marquess now came forward as the advocate of the Legion. He should like, he repeated, to know on what grounds he came forward as the representative of the interests of its officers and soldiers? For though he had had no personal communication with them, he could not think that the officers of the Legion could be so forgetful of all dignity and decorum as to consent, after the extraordinary terms in which they had been vilified by the noble Marquess, to select the noble Marquess for their advocate and champion. He could hardly conceive it to be possible, that they would have so little of the esprit de corps about them as to place the representation of their grievances in an individual who had exhausted all his powers of rhetoric in censuring and abasing them. The noble Marquess had described the Legion as the
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refuse of society in England, as the sweeping together of all that was evil and dissolute and disorderly in our large towns, and as drunken, cowardly, and cruel, upon service. Yes, the noble Marquess had asserted that, in return for the exemplary mercy with which they had been always treated by the orders of Don Carlos, they had absolutely murdered—ay, murdered was the word—130 Carlist prisoners in cold blood. He could not believe that the officers of the Legion would have made the noble Marquis their advocate in that House, unless the noble Marquess had made a retractation of the charges which he formerly brought against them; and, if he had made them any such retractation, then their Lordships had a right to have the benefit of its being avowed. But if the noble Marquess had not made an apology to these officers, and was in communication with those whom he had so heavily stigmatised, then he must ask the noble Marquess whether he had himself inquired into the truth of the present charges, or whether he believed them on the authority of men whom he had denounced as utterly worthless? If the Legion were the utterly worthless gang which the noble Marquess had described them to be, did it never strike the mind of the noble Marquess that it was not wonderful that the Spanish government should be slow in paying up the arrears of a corps which had done it signal mischief? The noble Marquess was fond of putting questions to the members of her Majesty's Government, and of demanding what he called categorical answers to them. Now, he would take a leaf out of the noble Marquess's book, and he would ask the noble Marquess to give a categorical answer to the questions which he had just put to him. It really was "too bad" for the noble Marquess to come down to the House with letters and scraps of newspapers, and at one time to stigmatize the officers and men of the Legion as the most worthless of mankind, and at another to make what he considered a touching speech as the advocate of their grievances. It really was "too bad" for the noble Marquess at one time to state that the commission was closed, and that owing to its being closed thousands were defrauded, and at another to admit that the commission was still sitting. It really was "too bad" for the noble Marquess at one time to read a list of 36 officers—[The Marquess

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of Londonderry, "56,"]—and to represent them as individuals who had received promotion or places from the Government for the purpose of stopping their mouths, and at another to see him engaged in a correspondence whereby he was obliged to except a great number of them from his list. It really was "too bad" to hear the noble Marquess at one time charging General Alava—the gallant companion in arms of the noble Duke opposite, whose integrity required no proof—of trafficking in the bonds of the commission, and of defrauding hundreds of their due; and at another to hear him not only attacking the integrity of that soldier without reproach, but also grudging him the hospitality with which he was welcomed in this country. He would not pursue these topics further: it was unnecessary; for there had been only one feeling among their Lordships I when the noble Marquess preferred these attacks against General Alava. He felt that he should best economise the time and patience of the House by not following the noble Marquess through the set of denials which he had read to the House, and which he (the Earl of Clarendon) could not pretend to remember, coming as they did from the gentleman who, on this occasion, had furnished the noble Marquess with his brief, and who began his letter, if he recollected it rightly, by stating that he furnished it in consequence of the inquiries made of him by the noble Marquess. He had better commence by stating how the commission had been formed, and what it had done. It had originally been the intention of the Spanish government that the commission should sit at Madrid; but that government subsequently yielded to the strong reasons which were urged by his noble Friend at the head of the Foreign-office, and consented to have the commission transferred to London. His noble Friend had stated, with no less truth than force, that the interests of the Legion could be better watched over in this country than in Spain, and that its claims could be more easily adjusted here in accordance with the rules of the British service. One commissioner was appointed by each side. There were to be two referees, whose decisions were to be final, unless they disagreed, and when they did disagree, the points in dispute were to be referred to the two governments. All matters in dispute as to the practice of the British service
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were to be referred to the War-office, and its decision upon them was to be final. No commission could have been more honourably formed, nor could any regulations be better framed for accomplishing the ends of justice. Shortly after the commission was appointed, the officers of the Legion had, or fancied that they had, some reason to be dissatisfied with the commissioner whom they had appointed; and requested General Alava, in consequence, to allow them to appoint another. General Alava might have refused their request, but so determined was he to allow everything that was favourable to the Legion, that he acceded at once to the appointment of another gentleman as commissioner, who had watched over its interests with a zeal and devotion which had earned him the gratitude of almost every soldier in it. The commission, as he had said on a former occasion, had intended to close its labours in August last, and they gave a month's notice that it would be closed at that time. His noble Friend at the head of the Foreign-office had suggested that fifteen days more should be allowed, and in consequence of his recommendation the commission was prolonged to the 30th of September. Due notice to that effect was given in England, Ireland, and Scotland, and particularly in those places in each country where the Legion was originally recruited. He knew that the noble Marquess had denied this; but there existed among the records of the commission the affidavits of the Spanish consuls at the respective places that such notice had been given. On the close of the commission the commissioner of the Legion addressed to the officers of it an account of the mode in which it had proceeded to examine the different claims, and of the mode in which he had performed his duties. He would, with the permission of their Lordships, read a few extracts from it. The noble Earl proceeded to read the following extracts:—
"In all instances the opinion of the Secretary-at-War has been scrupulously adhered to, with these exceptions:—1. Four men who had lost their arms above the elbow, and whose pensions were fixed by the War-office at 9d. a-day, the commission amended it to 1s. per diem, such sum having been previously given by the decisions of the Secretary-at-War to others of the Legion who had suffered similar injury.—2. After a negative had been given upon Lieutenant-Colonel Wyatt's claim to a pension, we again submitted the

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special circumstances of the case to the Secretary-at-War, and the final result was the award of a pension. These were the only exceptions. The second instance in which a decision of the previous commission was reversed or departed from, affected heads of departments and paymasters, whose certificates of pay had been withheld until the Legion accounts should be examined; it was resolved, June 5, that such certificates should be issued to them, as to all the officers. These two acts of justice, having somewhat of a retrospective character, were done without delay. The next step was to settle (in the only way in our power—viz. by certificates) all arrears of pay and pensions due to widows, wounded officers, and men."
The commissioner, after some details, into which it was unnecessary for him to enter, proceeded in the following words:—
"Many important general questions were referred to the Secretary at War, and invariably whatever he recommended favourable to the interests of the Legion was either adopted, or, if otherwise, a difference of opinion between the commissioners made it necessary to send the point for the decision of the referees. The result of these references affecting principles of decision and large classes of claimants was highly advantageous to the Legion, as may be demonstrated by reference to the resolution fixing the principle for deciding on the disallowances on paymasters' accounts. In the sitting of August 9, 1839, the following minute was made:—' In conformity with the opinion expressed by Lord Howick, the Secretary at War, July 29, in reference to the final audit of the accounts of the paymasters—Resolved, ' That in cases where errors exist in regimental paymasters' accounts, and have been disallowed by Assistant-commissary-general Dunwiddie, such error shall not be finally carried it against their credits under the following circumstances:—When by the act of the Spanish Government or its agents recovery of the sum is impossible, and no personal profit seems to have actuated or accrued to the said paymasters, nor evidence of fraudulent intention, save and except, however, when such errors shall have arisen from evident ignorance or negligence of their duties; grave cases still remaining open to special consideration.' Upon this principle the commission acted, and the result was, that more was allowed as due to the regiments than Deputy Commissary-general Black had claimed for them, and less charged against the paymasters; in addition to which, pay and gratuities were allowed to all paymasters for the period they could prove detention in Spain on duly after the 10th of June, and various amounts of compensation were awarded by the commission for time lost and duty performed in England at subsequent periods. With respect to the widows, all that the warrants of the British War-office could be found
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to sanction has been awarded; and in reference to the wounded, so anxiously have their interests been guarded, that it will be found Lieutenant-colonel Wyatt owes his pension to the steps taken by the commission in soliciting a re-consideration of his case by the Secretary at War. In another case, where the law of the land had condemned an officer, and thus stripped him of legal claims, his pension was awarded, extenuating circumstances having been considered, and moreover made payable to the person with whom he left a power to receive it, although the commission was by no means bound to acknowledge this transfer, which in law could not be enforced. These facts must prove, that the just interests of the Legion were not allowed to suffer. With respect to the general labours and results of the commission, it will be found that all claims brought before it have been adjusted or referred. Among the former were between 200 and 300 disputed claims, more than two-thirds of which were decided favourably to the claimants. In settlement of the claims, 4,315 certificates have been signed, amounting to 244,330 l. 1s. 3½d.; while the abstracts of individual credits not yet claimed, which have been deposited with the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Viscount Palmerston), further provide for and specify the claims of nearly 1,500 individuals, and (o the amount of about 9,000 l.—this being independent of a list of 1,400 wounded, many of whom have not yet claimed compensation, and a list of deceased men (without credits, but with claims for gratuity), not yet completed, which will add to this number probably 500 more."
Now, as the original claim of the Legion was for 280,000 l., and as the certificates issued were for 260,000 l., and as abstracts of individual credits not yet claimed, and for dead men had been deposited in Lord Palmerston's office, amounting to somewhere about 9,000 l. more, he thought that it could hardly be said, that injustice had been done to the Legion. It was a proof also, that the claims of the Legion were not unjust, and that the commissioners had done their duty. However unsatisfactory this might be to those who sought to profit by a paid agency, and to those who were not able to support the claims which they had brought forward, it was most satisfactory, not only to the men, but also to all the superior officers of the Legion, who wished nothing but justice to be done between them and the Spanish Government. He had now only to state, that as the commission had closed its labours, and as the amount of debt due from the Spanish Government to the Legion had been agreed upon, his noble Friend at the head of the

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Foreign-office had brought the necessity of settling it energetically before that Government. Although the embarrassments of the Spanish Government were great, and although the civil war was not yet brought to an end, he was convinced that the Spanish Government would look upon it as a sacred debt, and would to the utmost use every exertion to pay it.
The Marquess of Londonderryobserved, that although the noble Earl had jeered him not a little harshly for interfering in this matter, he would shorten the rejoinder which he had intended to give to the noble Earl, owing to the satisfaction which he derived from what the noble Earl had said at the close of his speech. The noble Earl had told them that the Legion claimed 280,000 l., and that certificates had been granted for 260,000 l. Would the noble Earl also tell them what those certificates were worth? Would anybody take them even at a discount of 50 per cent. The noble Earl had likewise told them that the Spanish Government would do its utmost to pay these certificates. He should like to know what its "utmost" was. Was it anything like the "utmost" of the noble Viscount, which generally meant nothing? Four years had elapsed since this debt was contracted by the Spanish Government, and he supposed that four years more would elapse before it was paid. Why would not the noble Viscount insist, as he ought to do, that it should be paid at once? The noble Earl had asked him for an answer to this question—"Why was he the advocate of the officers, whom he had abused, and why did he bring forward their claims for redress after reviling them as he had done in that House?" Now, if the noble Earl would look at the number of signatures attached to the two petitions which he had presented, he would at once see the reason. He had also another reason. The former friends of the Legion had deserted it, and thrown it overboard, and therefore he, thinking that they ought not to have entered the service in the first instance, was nevertheless of opinion, that as they had entered it, they were entitled to be paid according to the terms of their contract. He had never disparaged the courage and bravery of the officers. He had always blamed the service, but he had never said one word against the conduct and bravery of the officers of those troops. The noble Earl
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had censured him for attacking the hospitality shown in this country to General Alava. Now he had a great personal respect for General Alava. He had also a great personal respect for the noble Earl; but though the noble Earl had jeered, and might again jeer him, for doing his duty, he would maintain that General Alava, who made this contract with the Legion, was imperatively bound in honour to see it fulfilled. The noble Earl had likewise said that he had spoken from a brief that had been furnished to him. Why, he had once had at home a pile of letters two feet high, from officers and men who had served in the Legion, and, not knowing what to do with their complaints, he had sent them to—whom? To the individual who had the agency of all these officers, and who, therefore, was best acquainted with the truth or falsehood of the statements made by the parties in their letters. Was not that the best way of proceeding? The agent had in consequence given him the information which he had stated to their Lordships; and then the officers had called upon him to make their claims on the British Government. He thought that he had now given the noble Earl a sufficient answer on all the three points which he had put to him in so jeering a manner. His object in reading the names of the fifty-six officers of the Legion who had been promoted either in the army or in the civil service of the country, was not to object to their promotion, but to urge it as an additional reason why the rest of the officers ought not to be neglected. He would excuse the noble Earl's jeering and jocularity, because he had given him a renewed promise that the Legion should be paid—a promise which he hoped that the noble Earl would keep better than the guarantee which he had given for the Spanish government four years ago.
The Earl of Clarendon: I never gave any guarantee, I never could give a guarantee, that the Spanish government should pay money.
The Marquess of Londonderrybelieved that the noble Earl had stated in a letter that he would see the arrears due to the Legion paid by the Spanish government. He looked upon that as a guarantee. He would remain satisfied with what had transpired till after Easter; if he then found that the matter was still trailing on, he would bring the subject once more before their Lordships.
The Duke of Wellingtonwanted to know whether the paper which the noble Earl had just read was in an official shape, and could be laid upon the table of the House. He thought that the noble Earl had stated that the commission was issued under the authority of the Spanish government; that there was a commissioner on each side; and that there were two referees, one named by the Spanish, and the Other by the British Government. This brought the commission to be a commission under the government, and he rather thought that the Secretary of State must have had a report upon it. That report would throw much light on the subject, if it were laid upon the table of the House. He could not anticipate any objection to its production.
Viscount Melbourne: The commission is thus constituted,—One commissioner is appointed by the Spanish government, and one by the officers who are claimants upon Spain.
The Duke of Wellington: There are two referees, one of whom is named by the Spanish, and the other by the British Government. The business of the commission was thus brought before the Secretary of State, and might be considered as in his hands. He would suggest the propriety of laying a copy of the report of that commission upon their Lordships' table.
Viscount Melbournewould produce the report, but only on the consideration of its production not being objected to.
Subject at an end.