GOVERNMENT OF IRELAND COMMITTEE.

HL Deb 14 May 1839 vol 47 cc1004-8

Lord Wharncliffe

said, he wished to call the attention of their Lordships to a publication which had appeared in the Standard newspaper of yesterday, which had reference to the committee now sitting to inquire into the cause of crime in Ireland. Though he did not mean to bring the matter forward as a breach of privilege, still he felt that it was totally impossible, in justice to that committee, not to take some notice of it. Indeed, if it were not actually a breach of privilege, it was an exceedingly improper interference on the part of the press with respect to the proceedings of a committee of that House. The following was the publication which had appeared in the Standard, quoted from the Dublin Mail, and headed "Committee of the House of Lords—Irish Inquiry:"— One is really disposed to ask the question, was Lord Normanby, or is Captain Drummond, a ribbandman? Had they been sworn of the rebellious brotherhood, or anxious for the promotion of the hellish schemes which banded these traitorous men in a bloody conspiracy, they could not have been apparently more sedulous to promote their objects, or more anxious to preserve their secrets, than they have been. We speak not of the general and sweeping denial of the existence of any such confederacy as that stated to be in mischievous operation. False and foolish as such a denial was, it wanted the circumstantiality necessary to fasten the positive participation of the parties in those atrocities to which life and property have been sacrificed in Ireland; but the truth is out, and what ulterior measures the committee may recommend, or the House of Lords adopt, must be matter of consideration. This committee, which, by the way is indefatigable in its labours, sat on Wednesday front one o'clock until five. Mr. Despard, a police magistrate, was under examination the entire day, and his evidence, respecting the riband conspiracy, was truly important. He had been directed to bring with him all the documents connected with the subject but not having done so, he was questioned as to the reason, when he admitted that he called on Mr. Drummond on his way through Dublin, and was directed by that person to withhold the documents The writer went on to say— The question is, will the Lords submit to this indignity? Will they tolerate this gross violation of their privileges? Will they commit the culprit to Newgate, or, treating his insolence with contempt, will they be content to leave the carrion, and fly at the higher quarry? Our firm belief is, that nothing short of an impeachment of Lord Normanby will satisfy the ends of justice, and of its issue no one who is acquainted with the evidence can entertain a doubt.. Now, the effect of this publication undoubtedly was, to charge the noble Marquess opposite, and to charge Mr. Drummond, with causing certain documents to be withheld, for the purpose of preventing the truth coming out. He had, however, to state to their Lordships, the unanimous opinion of the committee that this allegation was contrary to the fact, and that no denial of any one document on the part of Mr. Drummond, had occurred, at the request of the noble Marquess or of any one else. The real state of the case was this. A letter had been written to Mr. Despard, requesting his attendance before the committee. He was not desired in that letter to bring documents with him. A private letter had, however, been sent to this gentleman by Lord Roden, with respect to the production of documents. On his way here the witness called on Mr. Drummond, in Dublin, showed him that letter, and asked whether he would enable him to produce the documents referred to. To that Mr. Drummond answered, that not having received a regular summons from the committee, he could not give up the documents. That was the reason why the documents were not produced. When the examination had gone on to a certain extent here, it was found that they could go on no further without the documents. The committee took time to consider the question, and on a communication being made to Lord Morpeth, it was directed that all the documents required should be immediately produced. The paragraph of the newspaper was so improper and direct a charge against the noble Marquess and Mr. Drummond that he had been desired by the committee to notice it in the House.

The Marquess of Normanby

was not aware that the noble Lord meant to bring this subject forward, and certainly nothing could be more fair than the manner in which he had introduced it. But he wished to take that opportunity of stating to their Lordships, that, objecting as he did to the appointment of that committee, objecting still further to its composition, and conceiving that he might have occasion hereafter to object to its proceedings, he felt it to be quite consistent with the line of conduct which he had originally taken, when he declared that he would not share in the proceedings of that committee—he felt that it was perfectly consistent with that determination, as there appeared to be a sort of impression created, that evidence existed to prove a primâfacie case of a general Riband conspiracy in Ireland—now to entreat his noble friend, and through him the members of the committee, to send for every document, however minute, connected with the conduct of the Irish Government—to send for every officer, however closely connected with the Irish Government, that they might fully examine them, and ascertain the fact whether the Government, at the head of which he was, did not by every means in their power, direct and collateral, exert themselves to come at the truth, and to discover the existence of any such conspiracy as had been so often alluded to, whenever any intimation of such a system was given to the Government. He was anxious that the most ample information should be brought before the committee; and be would take that opportunity of stating to his noble Friend, that it was the duty of the committee to examine every officer, however he might have been connected with the Irish Government, who it was supposed could give any information on this subject. It would, he believed, be found, that they bad on every occasion endeavoured to do their duty justly and impartially. He begged leave just to say one word in explanation of a misstatement which had been made with respect to an observation that had fallen from him on a former occasion. He had not given a general denial of any conspiracy being in existence in Ireland, but he had denied that there was any general political conspiracy in the country. Such was his impression when he left Ireland, and such was his impression now, but he was desirous that the utmost facilities should be given for inquiring into the whole course of proceeding adopted by the Government.

The Earl of Roden

observed, that it was necessary to say a word, in consequence of the observations which had fallen from his noble Friend (Lord Wharncliffe). He could assure their Lordships, that there was no individual Member of that Committee who more fully concurred in the desire that the utmost fairness should be manifested in this inquiry towards the noble Marquess and every individual connected with the Irish Government than himself. He should now briefly state the reasons which induced him to write the letter which had been alluded to. He was totally unacquainted with those individuals who had been summoned as witnesses. He understood, however, that they were only summoned to attend themselves, and that they would come without certain papers which were necessary to the investigation. He therefore wrote to them, stating, that, as they were summoned to give evidence, it was necessary to a full examination of the question, that they should bring with them all papers connected with their knowledge of the Riband Society. These officers, very properly, laid this letter before Mr. Drummond, and as his noble Friend had stated, Mr. Drummond said, that under the circumstances he could not allow the documents to be produced. Subsequently, on application to Lord Morpeth, a desire was expressed, that every facility should be given, and that all necessary documents should be laid without delay before the Committee. He regretted, that anything connected with the proceedings of the Committee should go forth except in a regular and proper manner; and he hoped, that before long, the Committee would be able to report to the House on this most important subject.

The Duke of Richmond

said, in his opinion, Mr. Drummond would have ill-performed his duty if he had permitted those papers to be laid before the Committee. Some of the papers were of such a nature as could not, with propriety, be laid before any Committee of their Lordships, because they had reference to trials that were now going on. He could not give any opinion as to when the Committee would report, or as to what that the report might be, but this he would say, that he had seldom seen any committee more numerously attended, or at which greater attention was paid to the important subject under consideration.

The Marquess of Westmeath

said, when the noble Marquess opposite, in a debate on a former occasion, entered into an explanation on the subject of the disturbances which prevailed in Ireland, he stated his conviction, with respect to the Riband system in that country, that it was got up for agrarian purposes, and had nothing to do with political feeling, so he understood the noble marquess, who appeared now to adhere to the same doctrine.

The Marquess of Normanby.

—What I stated was, that there was no evidence of a general political conspiracy in Ireland.

Lord Wharncliffe

deprecated further discussion, and the conversation ended.