Lords Sitting of 15 March 1839

MINUTES.
Bills. The Royal Assent was given by Commission to the Transfer of Aids; and the Poor-law (Ireland) Amendment Bills.
Petitions presented. By the Duke of Richmond, the Marquess of Downshire, the Earl of Bradford, and Lords Redesdale and Rayleigh, from several places, against the Repeal of the Corn-laws.—By Lord Redesdale, from Norwich, against the Registration of Births and Marriages Act.—By the Earl of Haddington, from Nottingham, the Duck of Richmond, form two places, and the

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Marquess of Downshire, from Berkshire, against the Beer Laws.—By the Earl of Roseberry, from a number of places in Scotland, against any further Grant to the Church of Scotland.—By the Marquess of Bute, and the Earl of Kinnoul, from several places, for Church Extension in Scotland.

CORN-LAWS.
Lord Broughamsaid, he had before him a petition (it was of immense magnitude) on a subject of very great importance. It was eminently worthy of their Lordships' serious consideration, as it came from a city, which, if he excluded Dublin, was the second in the empire. He alluded to the great and flourishing city of Glasgow. The petition was the result of a great public meeting, and was signed by no less than 43,000 people; being by far the greatest number that had ever signed a petition in that city, and indeed he was not aware of more than one or two petitions having been signed by so great a number of persons on any occasion in that part of the empire. The petition related to the Corn-laws; and, as that question had been so lately, and so fully discussed, he should merely state, that it prayed for the total repeal of those laws. By the indulgence of Mr. Wright, the able editor of that most valuable work, the Memoirs of Lord Chatham, he had had access to a very important speech of Mr. Burke on the subject of the Corn-laws. That speech was made in the year 1770; and in referring to it, as it was not authenticated, he deemed it necessary to state (what was known to all those who were acquainted with the Parliamentary history of this country), that there was a blank in the debates from 1768 to 1774. Mr. Wright, however, had succeeded in discovering a depository to which he had obtained a clue some years ago, and from which he had obtained four volumes of most valuable documents. No man knew better bow to make use of them than Mr. Wright, and be had executed his task most judiciously. It was not pretended, in these reports, to give every word of every speech; but the best course was adopted, that of singling out the best performances, and giving them with scrupulous accuracy. The speech of Mr. Burke to which he now referred was delivered on the 6th of March, 1770. On that occasion, the late Lord Sydney, then Mr. T. Townshend, said, "I shall give no opposition to this question, but we are clearly not ripe for the alteration;" that alteration being the repeal of the then Corn-laws—the very question that was now agitating
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the country. Mr. Burke said, in answer, "Not ripe! the hon. Member says 'We are not ripe.' Why, we are ripe for the question, till we are rotten! There is no such thing as the landed interest separate from the trading interest. What God has joined together, let no man try to separate. He who separates the interest of the consumer from the interest of the grower starves his country." He was aware, that both sides of the House might agree with this so far. But Mr. Burke went on to say, "Don't talk to me of high price or of low price—of encouraging or discouraging a true price—the just price of grain is its natural price in the universal market of the world. It has naturally no tendency to fluctuate; but it is your Corn-laws which make it fluctuate." Now, he could not but think it a remarkable circumstance, that this speech of Mr. Burke should have been found just now—a speech so much in confirmation of the two propositions, that had lately been urged before their Lordships by his noble Friend (Earl Fitzwilliam) and himself. It was an extraordinary circumstance, that they should have found the high and most unanswerable authority of this great man in support of their propositions, who, it was always to be observed, however he might have changed on other subjects, had throughout life never shown any shadow of change on the subject of the Corn-laws. The noble and learned Lord hoped, that some steps would be taken to enable Mr. Wright to publish the four volumes of documents to which he had referred. As a matter of public utility and of national utility this was to be desired. He was sorry to have been informed, that the encouragement heretofore held out for the publication of these volumes had not been sufficient to induce Mr. Wright to undertake it. He spoke now, however, in the presence of those who were able to appreciate what he stated, and be was sure, that a subject more deserving of the attention of her Majesty's Government could not be brought before it.
The Earl of Wicklowsaid, as the noble and learned Lord had laid so much stress upon the opinion of Mr. Burke, he was anxious to recall to the recollection of the noble and learned Lord (if the noble and learned Lord had ever before seen it) an opinion of another description of that same very able statesman, which he (the Earl of Wicklow) had happened to meet with

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the other day, when reading Prior's Life of Mr. Burke. Their Lordships would recollect, that the noble and learned Lord had made his observations, and read his opinion from Mr. Burke upon the occasion of his presenting a petition from the city of Glasgow. Mr. Burke said—and this was on the subject of the Corn-laws—"The cry of the people in cities and towns though, unfortunately, from fear of their multitude and combination, most regarded, ought in fact to be the least attended to, on this subject; for citizens are in a state of utter ignorance of the means by which they are to be fed, and they contribute little or nothing, except in a circuitous manner, to their own maintenance. They are fruges consumere nati. They are to be heard with great respect in matters within their own province, that is, with respect to trades and manufactures; but in anything that relates to agriculture, they ought to be listened to with the same deference which we pay to the dogmas of other ignorant and presumptuous men." Now, this being a recorded opinion of Mr. Burke, he (the noble Lord) begged to offer it as a set off against the opinion of Mr. Burke brought forward by the noble and learned Lord.
Lord Broughamwas obliged to the noble Earl for giving him an opportunity of setting the noble Earl right; the fact was, that what the noble Earl quoted was no argument against him at all. All Mr. Burke said was, that the landed interest and the manufacturing interest should not be placed in opposition to each other. He did not say a word about cheap bread. Mr. Burke said, that in taking this course, he was not courting vulgar opinion. Neither was he courting vulgar opinion; when he stated his sentiments on this question. It was those on the other side who were courting vulgar opinion; and he would say, that there was not a poor porter who read his newspaper on his bulkhead who did not entertain the same ideas on this subject which he had heard in that House.
Earl Fitzwilliamobserved, that much weight ought to be attached to the opinion of Mr. Burke. There was no man in his day more friendly to perfect freedom of trade in corn and everything else, and few men who had studied the question more diligently. In the quotation read by the noble Earl Mr. Burke must have alluded to the opinion of the lower classes.
The Earl of Wicklowsaid, the extract did not speak of the lower classes, but generally of manufacturers in large towns. Mr. Burke admitted, that they had a fair right to have their opinion fully considered on questions connected with commerce, manufactures, and trade, but he denied, that their knowledge of agriculture was such as ought to command deep attention.
Earl Fitzwilliamsaid, it was admitted, that those persons though not competent to speak on agricultural questions, were very good judges of commercial matters; now, he should be glad to know what was the question under discussion but a question of commerce.
Petition laid on the Table.
Lord Broughamsaid, that in bringing before their Lordships the motion relative to the Corn-laws, of which he had given notice, there was no necessity for him to occupy much of the time of the House. He should, therefore, simply submit his motion to their Lordships, wishing their Lordships to suppose, that all the arguments which he had urged last night were now reiterated. After the conflicting statements they had heard on the preceding evening—each argument and statement adduced on one side having been met by counter-arguments, and counter-statements on the other—he conceived it was proper that an inquiry should be instituted for the purpose of arriving at the real facts. He should, therefore, move, "That this House do immediately resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House to take into consideration the Act regulating the importation of foreign corn."
Viscount Melbournesaid, he did not see in what had occurred in the course of the debate last night, anything that ought to induce their Lordships to alter the judgment they had then arrived at. He should, therefore, oppose the motion.
Lord Brougham: What had passed was, he thought, the strongest confirmation of his proposition, and exemplified the necessity of inquiry, inasmuch as no two noble Lords were agreed upon any one point connected with the subject.
Their Lordships divided:—Contents 7; Not contents 61: Majority 54.