Lords Sitting of 12 March 1839

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By Lord LYNDHURST, the Marquess of ANGLESEY, the Duke of RICHMOND, the Earls of MOUNTCASHEL, and STANHOPE, Lord REDESDALE, the Marquess of BUTE, and two other noble LORDS, from a number of places, against the Repeal of the Corn-laws.—By Lord BROUGHAM, and the Earl of GOSFORD, for the Repeal of the Corn-laws.—By Viscount MELVILLE, and the Earl of GALLOWAY, from three places, for Church Extension in Scotland.

CHURCH EXTENSION, (SCOTLAND).
The Earl of Gallowaybegged to ask the noble Viscount at the head of her Majesty's Government, whether he would redeem the pledge which, though certainly not stated in words, was implied in the appointment of the commission to inquire into the state of church accommodation in Scotland, by bringing forward any proposition to meet the prayer of the numerous body of petitioners who had addressed their Lordships on this important national question.
Viscount Melbourne: I cannot admit that any pledge was expressed.
The Earl of Galloway: Not expressed, but implied.
Viscount Melbourne: Nor implied by the appointment of a commission; and I beg to say, that there is no intention at present, on the part of her Majesty's Government, to propose any grant upon the subject.
The Earl of Gallowaywas grieved to hear that answer made by the noble Viscount, and he was quite sure that the people of Scotland would greatly grieve to hear it, and that an impartial posterity would pass judgment upon the economy of the present day, which could squander thousands of the public money on useless expeditions to the coasts of Portugal and Spain, and throw millions into the laps of the agitators of Ireland, whilst the best interests of the community, their moral and religious instruction, were neglected, and left without support.
Lord Brougham: As to throwing millions into the laps of the Irish agitators, in that the noble Earl is rather premature. It is not done yet. There must be a vote of this House, as well as of the other House of Parliament, before that can be accomplished. The noble and learned Lord then presented a petition from Bridgewater, and several other places, praying for a free trade in corn. The petition from Bridgewater was signed by 1,100 persons, and coming, as it did,

323
from a purely agricultural district, he thought it might be taken as a test of the real feeling that existed upon this subject among the more intelligent portion of the agricultural population throughout the country.

CORN Laws.
The Duke of Richmondsaid, he had forty-eight petitions to present from various parts of England and Scotland, against the repeal of the corn-laws. His noble Friend thought it satisfactory, on his side of the question, that he had produced a petition from a few hundreds of agriculturists for a repeal of these laws; but he would ask his noble Friend to set off the petition from the town of Glasgow with the resolution passed by the Chamber of Commerce there, against the petition from the neighbourhood of Bridgewater.
Lord Broughamsaid, he should like to see, as a curiosity, a copy of the resolution of which his noble Friend had spoken. It must be a very extraordinary document. He thought there must be some mistake about it.
The Duke of Richmondwould read, what he had received from a gentleman living in the city of Glasgow. It was a resolution passed on the 16th of January, 1839, in answer to a requisition presented to the Chamber of Commerce, and was to this effect:—
"Resolved, that it is the unanimous opinion of this Chamber, after full discussion, that the abolition of the Corn-laws at this time would be impolitic and inexpedient—involving, as such a measure, in order to be a measure of justice, necessarily would, corresponding measures on the part of the Legislature—such as the abolition of all protecting duties on foreign manufactures—an equal adjustment of all local burdens, with a general revision of the existing system of taxation and currency; but, if the requisitionists will condescend to state the nature of the alteration they require, and the reasons upon which it is founded, the Chamber will be prepared to take the subject into further consideration."
Now, with that resolution of the Chamber of Commerce he (the Duke of Richmond) entirely and completely concurred. He did not object to a free trade in corn, but what he said was this: "If you have a free trade in corn, you must also have a free trade in every thing else. You have no right to take off the protection which is now given to land, if you do not allow me to get my coat as cheap as I can.
324
You must next take off the malt-tax, and all taxes that now press unfairly upon agriculture."
Lord Broughamsaid, there never was a person whom he was more proud to have for a convert than his noble and excellent Friend. Instead of being opposed to each other, he was now happy to find that he and his noble Friend were entirely on the same side. His noble Friend had spoken exactly in the same sense in which he had always spoken upon the subject of the Corn-laws. His argument had always been, that if they took off any protection at all, they must take off all protection—from every class—from merchants, traders, and others, as far as the public faith would allow; and they must take off the burdens which press upon the agriculturists also. With respect to the resolution which had been read, he could not help thinking his noble Friend had been imposed upon. It could not possibly be said, in a resolution, that "it is the unanimous opinion of the Chamber," because, until the resolution were put, it could not be known whether it was the unanimous opinion or not." It must have been a draft of an intended resolution to be proposed to meet the requisitionists, and not the resolution of a great meeting. This appeared from the conclusion of the document itself, which stated that the question was to be taken into further consideration: it was not therefore the expression of a final opinion.
The Duke of Richmondsaid, the circumstance, he understood, was this:—A certain set of gentlemen in Glasgow, who called themselves Corn-law agitators, had called upon the Chamber of Commerce to appoint a meeting upon the subject of repealing the Corn-laws; and this resolution was in answer to that requisition. But he begged not to be supposed a convert to his noble Friend's views upon this question, unless his noble Friend became a convert to the views which he (the Duke of Richmond) entertained respecting it. What he, in brief, would say was this; "If you take off all the taxes that now press upon the agriculture of this country, then we can compete with the farmers of other countries; but if you do not take off those taxes, we cannot compete with foreigners." Before he sat down, he wished to call the attention of the noble Viscount to the circumstance, that, at the end of the last Session, an objection was made to

325
a customs bill, in which the duty on foreign fruit had been taken off; and on the bill being allowed to pass, the noble Viscount stated, that, early this Session, he should repeal that part of the bill relating to the duty on foreign fruits. He gave notice, that, on Wednesday, he should present several petitions from Sussex, calling upon the noble Viscount to redeem his pledge.

THE SULTAN AND MEHEMET ALI
Lord Broughamwished to ask the noble Viscount a question relating to Egypt and the Porte. He understood, that some time ago representations were made by the British Government both to the Sultan of Turkey and to Mehemet Ali, who was nominally the Governor of Egypt under the Porte, but in reality the Sovereign of that great country, requesting them to cease pursuing that system of mutual aggression on one another, which, if persisted in, could have a tendency only to produce the most frightful effects on themselves, as well as of endangering the peace of the East. He understood, that Mehemet Ali had pursued that course—had regularly complied with the requisition of the British Government—and had since directed his whole attention to the internal administration of his kingdom, in which great improvements had been effected. But he was informed, that the Porte, so far from acting in the same amicable spirit, had been arming itself, and that no less than 25,000 troops, 10,000 of one class, and 15,000 of another, had been raised since the intercession of the British Government; that 10,000 quintals of gunpowder had been laid in; a fleet had been manned, on board of which were several English officers; and that very large preparations had been made for raising artillery, and, above all, field artillery, to disturb the peace of the Levant. One reason why he felt the greatest interest in the affairs of Egypt was this—that whether it were to be continued nominally under the power of the Porte, and really to be an independent kingdom, or to be nominally as well as in reality an independent state under the dominion of Mehemet Ali, the great wisdom and great genius for affairs which had been shown by that monarch—whom he scrupled not to term the most distinguished of any individual upon any throne in the present time—had been such
326
as to attract the most perfect approval and admiration of all to whom his proceedings were known. Of those measures he would mention only two. First, he had founded a department of public instruction—an example, he (Lord Brougham) could wish were followed by some other powers not far off. He had had the honour, as well as other noble Lords, of making the acquaintance of Mehemet Ali's Minister of Public Instruction, when he was lately upon a visit to this country, where he profited much by observing all our establishments for education; and, secondly, he had put down by an ordinance, which, with his accustomed vigour, he had carried into effect, the abominable slave-trade which had formerly disgraced the kingdom of Egypt, and which was commonly called garzouah, and known in our Eastern dominions by a name meaning, in both instances slave-hunting, and using the means of war for the purpose of hunting our fellow creatures like beasts of the chase. They were hunted, and taken down the Nile to be sold in the markets of the Levant. Mehemet Ali had, by a truly just and humane ordinance, at once put down that abominable crime and nuisance. He, (Lord Brougham) therefore, felt the greatest interest in all that concerned so great and humane a prince. He hoped, therefore, that the same measure of justice would be dealt out to the Sultan on the one hand, as to Mehemet Ali on the other. Mehemet Ali had complied with the terms required of him; but he was informed, that the Sultan had thought proper to adopt a contrary course, after gaining all the benefit of our interposition with the Sovereign of Egypt.
Viscount Melbournesaid, it had been the most anxious desire of her Majesty's Government, in conjunction with the Allies of this country, to restrain each party from making any aggression upon the other, and to preserve, as far as it was in their power, a general peace in that quarter of the world. It was true, that both powers had acceded to the advice which had been given them, and he trusted, that the disposition to comply with it would continue. He thought, that the information which had reached the noble and learned Lord, that preparations were being made by the Sultan, was, if not totally unfounded, greatly exaggerated; nor did he believe, that the intentions suspected by the noble and learned Lord

327
were entertained by that Sovereign. But, whatever might be the case, the noble and learned Lord might be assured, that it would be the continued policy of her Majesty's Government, in conjunction with her Allies, to do the utmost in their power to restrain both parties from doing anything oppressive against each other, or to make attacks upon one another.
Lord Broughamsaid, that nothing could be more satisfactory than the spirit in which the noble Viscount had answered his question. He was quite confident, that the mere statement which the noble Viscount had made would have an excellent effect at Constantinople; he was equally certain, that the expression of approbation of the conduct of Mehemet Ali would have the same good effect, in inducing that prince to persevere in his present wise and virtuous course of policy. He would now hand to the noble Viscount the information he had received.

CANADA—MR. MACKENZIE.
The Earl of Riponsaid, it was with considerable reluctance that he called their Lordships' attention to a matter which, although not unconnected with a very important public question before the House, had, nevertheless, as far as the present motion was concerned, a special personal reference to himself. His motion would be for the production of certain information with respect to communications which in 1832, when he was colonial secretary, had taken place between himself and an individual of the name of Mackenzie. His attention had been called to this subject by having accidentally seen a work, published in 1835, in Canada, in which reference was made very specifically to those communications. The work was called "The Seventh Report of Grievances of the House of Assembly of Upper Canada." Some matters introduced into this report had since attracted notice in this country, and had led to observations connected with his communications with Mr. Mackenzie, which were of a nature somewhat injurious to him, alluding to his disposition respecting that individual, founded in misconception he had no doubt, and which were entirely contrary to the fact. Of this Grievance Report this Mr. Mackenzie was both the author and the hero. It was not at all surprising, therefore, that Mr. Mackenzie should have availed himself of the opportunity of describing him-
328
self as a great man, and of priding himself on the very great influence he had obtained in this country in communications with the Colonial-office. But he should be able to satisfy their Lordships, that this gentleman affecting to be a very great man was, in fact, a very small one. He came to England in 1832, and presented himself at the Colonial-office as the representative of twenty thousand persons of Upper Canada, complaining of a variety of grievances. He almost affected the importance of an ambassador coming from an independent state; in short, there was no end of the importance he assumed. He addressed himself to me (continued the noble Earl), requesting I would see and permit him to be accompanied by three other gentlemen. I had to consider first, whether I ought to see him at all; and secondly, upon what footing I ought to receive him. I without the least hesitation determined to see him, because I was of opinion, that the doors of the head of any public office ought to be open to any person who wished to make representations of what they conceived to be grievances; and I also thought it good policy to hear the parties themselves state the grounds and reasons of their complaints. I determined, therefore, to see Mr. Mackenzie, who I was not prepared to say was what he had since been called—a broken down pedlar. As to his individual character I had no reason to know that he had been guilty either of treason or sedition. I knew he was upon very bad terms with the House of Assembly. He had, as they alleged, libelled them. They expelled him from the Assembly: he was re-elected. They expelled him again, he was again re-elected. In short, he was what was considered a very troublesome person; and it was not impossible that he might be also mischievous. Considering the character he gave himself, as being a person charged to speak the sentiments of a whole people, it became necessary for me to consider whether it was consistent with my duty to admit him in that character. I thought I ought not. He had no right so to represent himself. I therefore desired my under-secretary, Lord He wick, to write a letter, to make it quite impossible for this person to misunderstand the footing upon which alone I could consent to see him. His application was made on the 21st of June. On the 23d of June, Lord Howick wrote to

329
him, and after saying I should be ready to see him, he added (by my direction), "I have further to observe, that although Lord Goderich is ready to hear any observation you have to offer upon the affairs of Upper Canada as an individual interested in the welfare of that province, and as a member of the House of Assembly, he cannot recognize you as being deputed to act for any other person, nor can he enter into any discussion with you upon measures which his Majesty's Government may think it right to pursue." I think your Lordships will see, that that does not indicate on my part any hasty disposition to place unlimited confidence in that person. Lord Howick added, "The intentions of his Majesty's Government with respect to the affairs of the province can only be made known to the people of Upper Canada through the medium of the governor or the Legislature." No one, I think, can pretend, after this, to say, that I was incautious as to the extent upon which I should allow him to communicate with me. It reduced him from the lofty position he affected to assume, to his own natural level. I believed this disconcerted him very much, because he complained of it, and represented, that by my decision I shut the door of the Colonial office on all that vast mass of facts which he offered to submit on behalf of the unrepresented landholders and inhabitants of Upper Canada. As to what he called a mass of facts, it was, on the contrary, as great a mass of trash as was ever got together. Lord Howick's answer to that complaint was, that there had been a mistake, and that I was not unwilling to see him, and added, that I only declined to see him as having any authority from any recognised body, and said, "Lord Goderich declines to enter on any official discussion with you on the public affairs of Canada, or to admit, that you are the organ of those whom you term the unrepresented landowners and inhabitants of Canada," and then added, "Lord Goderich cannot form his judgment as to the wishes and opinions of the people of Upper Canada from unauthorised statements of individuals in opposition to those of the House of Assembly, in which he is convinced that all classes of the inhabitants are fairly represented." I apprehend that was good sound constitutional doctrine; and it did happen that the Assembly concurred in no single point with Mr. Mackenzie.
330
However, I saw him. He came accompanied by three other individuals. The first was Mr. Hume, then the Member for Middlesex; another was Mr. Viger, a sort of hybrid agent from Lower Canada; and the third was a Mr. Riarson, a gentleman of the Wesleyan persuasion. As soon as I found what it was Mr. Mackenzie was coming to talk to me about, it occurred to me that it was very singular that Mr. Viger should be of the party, he having nothing to do with them, but was a member of the Assembly of Lower Canada. I thought it might lead to very great inconvenience if I allowed him to be a party to the interview, and I asked what he could have to do with it. It was answered that the grievances were so much a matter of general concern that Lower Canada had almost as great an interest in them as Upper Canada. I, however, did not see the advantage of his being present. I thought it might lead to confusion, and I declined seeing Mr. Viger any more. Mr. Riarson stayed; his purpose for staying was to inform me that he came over with Mr. Mackenzie, but that he should not come again, because he did not agree in the views of Mr. Mackenzie. Mr. Mackenzie, therefore, was left to his own unassisted efforts. He fired at me a great number of memorials at subsequent periods; but I soon became satisfied that Mr. Mackenzie was as vain and shallow-headed a gentleman as ever I encountered; that he was totally incapable of managing business in any intelligible form, or of expressing his own views, or understanding the views of others. I think your Lordships will not believe that I was much disposed to place anything in the shape of confidence in him. On the 8th of September Lord Howick wrote to him thus:—"Lord Goderich is willing to receive and to pay such attention as they may seem to require to any further written statements you may think fit to submit, and if you have anything to state which can only be verbally communicated, his Lordship will not refuse to afford you an opportunity of stating it, as far as his other avocations will allow." This was rather a cold communication, and not indicative of a disposition to give my confidence to him. I had only one other conference with him; and in the Report of Grievances I find he endeavours to make his friends believe, that a dispatch which was sent to Canada the day after that conference was in con-

331
sequence of a two hours' conversation he had had with me on that occasion. It was perfectly true that a dispatch was dated the day after that conference; but when their Lordships were told what was the nature of that dispatch, they would perceive that it was not possible it could be the result of any conversation he had had with Mr. Mackenzie. It was a very long and elaborate dispatch, and one which touched on many questions of general policy, entering at the same time into minute details and interesting points affecting Upper Canada. This dispatch so far from proving that he had any confidence in Mackenzie, proved distinctly that he could not by possibility have entertained any, because it contained an elaborate refutation of all the statements which Mackenzie had made, and stated that he considered what Mackenzie had represented as grievances were no grievances at all. That was the nature of his communication with Mackenzie; the conclusions which had been drawn from it, therefore, were not founded in fact. Allusion had been made to the great respect with which he had received the representations of Mr. Mackenzie. What he received were not the representations of that person, but what he had received with respect were the petitions of 24,000 men. It was his bounden duty to treat them with respect, whether he adopted their representations and acted upon them or not. As to any other application of the word "respect" contained in the sentence which had been commented upon, he would say that the sense of the expression was entirely misunderstood, and that it had no reference whatever to Mr. Mackenzie. Perhaps, my Lords, concluded the noble Earl, I am laying too much stress upon this; but feeling that I am a loyal subject of her Majesty, I do not, my Lords, much like to be held up as a friend and fosterer of persons of this description—of such an individual as this Mr. Mackenzie, who, it appears, is now an outlaw—an admitted rebel, and a traitor. I confess I should think it a great reflection upon me if I had given my confidence to, or had placed any trust whatever in such a person. I, therefore, have felt it my duty to say that he had not the slightest influence over me in what I thought proper to do in respect to advising his late Majesty on the measures to be adopted with respect to Upper Canada. The noble Earl then moved for
332
the production of the papers to which he had alluded in the course of his speech.
The Marquess of Normanbysaid, he had not the slightest objection to the production of the papers moved for by the noble Earl. Since the noble Earl had given notice upon the subject, he (the Marquess of Normanby) had looked into the dispatch referred to, and he certainly could have borne his testimony, if any corroboration of the statement of the noble Earl had been necessary, as to the manner in which the noble Earl had guarded his intercourse with Mr. Mackenzie. But although the noble Earl had stated that his desire was to vindicate himself from certain imputations founded on a report of grievances published in 1835, yet he (the Marquess of Normanby) was at the same time aware that public attention had been called to a supposed relation between Mr. Mackenzie and his noble Friend by a much more recent publication. Therefore, in assenting to the production of these papers, he was anxious to guard himself against it being supposed that any unauthorised publication had in the least fettered him in the exercise of that discretion which he otherwise would have used as to the production of any of these documents to either House of Parliament. He had not the slightest feeling of personal ill-will towards the gallant officer (Sir Francis Head) from whom that publication had emanated. Quite the contrary; he had great respect for his bravery as a military character, and knew him to be a man of varied acquirements, and of great ability and talent. He wished to give no opinion with regard to his previous conduct; but with regard to this one act to which public attention had been called, he begged once for all to say, that he believed it to be an act perfectly unparalleled, and he trusted it would long remain a solitary instance. He owned he felt very strongly upon this subject. He would not allude to anything connected with that publication more than to state that he believed the insinuations were perfectly unwarranted, which had been thrown out against the private character of a highly honourable individual. He was only speaking as the head of the office whose documents had been so brought before the public; and he wished to take this opportunity of protesting against that conduct being drawn into a precedent, and of stating that as long as he should have the honour of serving her

333
Majesty in that office, he should do hi utmost to restrain and prevent the repetition of such conduct,
Papers ordered.