Lords Sitting of 20 June 1839

MINUTES.
Bills.—Read a first time:—Jamaica; Ecclesiastical Districts Assignment.—Read a third time. Borough Courts.
Petitions presented. By the Bishops of Gloucester, London, and Salisbury, the Earl of Winchilsea, and Lord Abinger, from several places, against, and by the Earl of Camperdown, from one place, in favour of the Government Plan for National Education.—By the Marquess of Lansdowne, from Troubridge, and Lord Lyndhurst, from a number of places, for a Uniform Penny Postage,—By Lord Lyndhurst, and the Bishop of Gloucester, from several places, against the Church Discipline Bill, and from Liverpool, for making the alterations in the Corporation Laws for Ireland inviolable.—By the Bishop of Salisbury, from several places, and the Duke of Richmond, from Banff, for Church Extension.—By the Bishop of London, from several places, for the better observance of the Sabbath.—By Lord Wharncliffe, from one place for facilitating Commercial Communication with Circassia.—By Lord Brougham, from Cambridge, for the Repeal of the Corn Laws, and for freedom of discussion.

WINDSOR CASTLE STABLES—CROWN LANDS.
On the motion that the Windsor Castle Stables Bill be read a second time,
Lord Ashburtonthought the effect of this bill would be to deteriorate the property of the Crown, for it authorised the Commissioners of her Majesty's Woods and Forests to apply the sum of 70,000 l.out of the revenues that had already arisen, or might hereafter arise, from the sale of portions of the lands of the Crown. Why, he would ask, should not the repairs be taken out of the actual revenue of the Crown, without alienating part of the Crown lands, which were the capital,

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and not the income? They might as well at once sell or alienate part of the Crown lands for the building or repair of Windsor Castle, as for the erection of these stables.
Viscount Duncannonsaid, the principle now acted upon was not a new one, for it had been acted upon for the last twenty years. In the improvements in the Strand, and in the rebuilding of Buckingham Palace, the greater portion of the expense of these had been defrayed by the produce of the sale of Crown property, that was part of the capital of the Crown estates.
The Earl of Ripondid not recollect, that any money arising out of the sale of land by the commissioners had been applied to the purposes mentioned by his noble Friend (Lord Duncannon); but, as the sums required for the purposes stated were very great, greater perhaps than the whole annual income of the Crown lands, it probably was so. What he wished to know from his noble Friend was, whether the annual income of the Crown estates was so charged with debts from former or present improvements of Crown property, as to be unable to bear this additional 70.000 l. for the erection of stables at Windsor; and whether, in consequence, it had become necessary to raise the money by the sale of certain portions of Crown lands? If the proposed sum were to be taken out of the general revenue of the Crown lands, the objection of his noble Friend near him would not apply. The whole income of the Crown lands was about 240,000 l.a-year. Was he to understand from his noble Friend (Lord Duncannon,) that this income was already so charged as to be unable to meet the expense of the stables at Windsor?
Viscount Duncannon: Debts to a very considerable amount had accrued on the revenue of the Crown for the improvements in the Strand, in the opening near Waterloo-Bridge, and in the alterations at Buckingham Palace. These, however, had now been all, or nearly all, paid off, and there was now a surplus revenue of about 140,000 l.
The Earl of Riponthought, that the expenses of the erection of the stables at Windsor ought to be paid out of that income, and not out of the produce of the sale of any part of the Crown lands.
Viscount Duncannondid not see why any lands should be sold for this particular purpose, but noble Lords should consider,
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that it did not follow, that because sales of some portions of Crown lands took place, there was, therefore, a deterioration of Crown property; for some portions were sold for the purpose of investing the produce in the purchase of other property, which was considered more advantageous, and some of those sales had produced great improvements in the Crown property; for instance, the purchase of some land at Pimlico, and the site for the stables at Windsor would be a considerable improvement to the Crown estates.
Lord Ashburtonstill could not see why the property of the Crown should be sold, while there existed an income from those lands sufficient for the expense required for the stables at Windsor. The Crown had only a life-interest in those estates, and nothing should be done to deteriorate their value.
Viscount Duncannonrepeated, that the course pursued by the commissioners was one which went to improve the property of the Crown, by selling, as he had said, some portions for the purpose of purchasing others more advantageously situated. The Crown would not be a loser by this.
Bill read a second time.