Lords Sitting of 11 June 1839

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a first time:—Promotion of Education Clerks of the Peace.
Petitions presented. By the Marquesses of Bristol, and Breadalbane, the Earls of Lovelace, Stanhope, and Camperdown, and Lord Portman, from a number of places, for a Uniform Penny Postage.—By the Bishop of Exeter, from places in the county of Durham, against the Government Flan of National Education.—By the Marquess of Breadalbane, from the counties of Argyle, and Forfar, for Church Extension in Scotland—By Lord Wrottesley, from a place in Suffolk, against the carrying on of any Business on the Sabbath.—By the Earl of Lovelace, from the Keepers of Beer Houses at Liverpool, for equal Rights and Laws with the Licensed Victuallers.

MINISTERIAL CIRCULAR, ARMING THE PEOPLE.
The Duke of Beaufortwished to receive some information with regard to a circular letter that had been lately addressed by the Secretary of State for the Home Department to the Lords-lieutenant of certain counties, on the subject of allowing individuals to arm for the protection of property. It appeared to him that the meaning of that letter was very imperfectly understood in the country, and that some explanation with reference to it was necessary. Their Lordships were probably aware that a communication had been made by a body denominating themselves "the Salford Radical Association" to the Lord-lieutenant of the county of Lancaster, calling on him to supply them with 1,200 stand of arms, in consequence

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of the circular to which he had alluded. An application of the same nature had also been made from Bath, which communication he should read to their Lordships. The noble Duke read the communication, which, in effect, stated, that" certain householders of Bath, having volunteered their services for the protection of life and property, requested to be supplied with arms." He had himself received several applications from persons who wished to arm in this manner; but he had advised them not, because, in his opinion, nothing could be worse than for bodies of men to enrol and to arm themselves in this manner, without being placed under any regular military control. Such associations were, he was convinced, calculated to do more mischief than good. He had no doubt that it never was the intention of Government to encourage assemblies of this kind; but it would seem, from these applications, that the intention of Government was misunderstood. These sort of meetings of individuals for the protection of life and property might become very dangerous, unless they were placed under efficient military control.
Viscount Melbourneentirely agreed in the general principle laid down by the noble Duke—that it was not proper or expedient for any body of men to assemble and arm themselves unless under the control of some person bearing her Majesty's commission. That principle could not, however, be applied to all cases. It might be necessary, on some particular occasions, when great danger was apprehended, to depart from the strict principle. With respect to the case referred to by the noble Duke, his (Lord Melbourne's) noble Friend, the Secretary for the Home Department, in consequence of the menacing appearance which many parts of the country had assumed, had deemed it necessary to transmit a circular to the Lords-lieutenant of certain counties where the danger seemed to be most threatening, and where the greatest apprehension prevailed. In that circular the Lords-lieutenant were allowed, on their responsibility, to accept the services of any body of men who they might think proper to be employed for the preservation of the public peace, and who they conceived might be intrusted with arms. Reliance was placed on their prudence in ascertaining the respectability and general good conduct of those who might be so em-
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ployed. To that extent only the circular of his noble Friend proceeded. He trusted that it would not be necessary to act on it to a greater extent than it had already been acted on, and that it would not be drawn into precedent beyond the immediate occasion.
The Duke of Wellingtonwas not one of those Lords-lieutenant to whom the circular in question had been addressed, but he should be glad to see it, as well as any instructions which might have been issued at the same time in order to render it efficient. Two or three things struck him on this subject, on which he wished to ask a question. He requested to know whether the noble Viscount, in what he had stated, had or had not adverted to the powers given to magistrates by certain acts of the late King's reign, empowering them to swear in special constables—whether that was the class of persons whom it was the intention of the Government to arm under the instructions given by the Secretary of State? If that were the case he could understand it. He should now state another question which he wished to ask. He understood, that under the act for regulating corporations, which was passed in 1835, and was much discussed in that House, powers were given to those corporations to form a police, they were enabled to raise funds to maintain that police, and the acts to which he referred also empowered them, if necessary, to raise a body of men to keep watch and ward. Now, he wished to know whether these were the people intended to be armed, under the circular, as a constitutional safeguard? What had been stated to their Lordships just now showed the enormous power which was granted by this circular, and showed also how dangerously it might operate. Suppose, this year, the mayor of a town, holding particular opinions, allowed one portion of the inhabitants to arm, when he was turned out of office, in the following November, he might be succeeded by another mayor, holding the opinions of a different party, which party, in his turn, he would permit to bear arms; might not, in such a case, very serious consequences arise from such a system? The mayor of Bath might, for instance, arm one party this day, and, in the course of a few months, another mayor might arm another party of very different principles. This point, in his opinion, afforded matter for

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serious consideration. He conceived, that Government ought to let their Lordships know what instructions Lords-lieutenant were directed to give to magistrates for the purpose of carrying into effect the intentions of the Secretary of State.
Viscount Melbournesaid, he had no objection to lay on the Table the circular and any papers connected with it. As to the question of the noble Duke, he had no hesitation in stating, that it was not the intention of the Government to employ the persons to whom he had alluded. They did not contemplate arming either the police or the constables. It was, however, in the power of the corporations and magistrates to employ them, if they thought proper.
The Duke of Wellingtonwas aware that it was in the power of the corporations to arm the police. He begged leave, however, to say, that if they did so, they became responsible to the law for their act. But if bodies armed under this circular, that certainly would be a proceeding of a very peculiar nature, for which nobody at all would be responsible. As he had before observed, the Mayor of Bath this year might think proper to arm 1,000 men, and in the month of November a gentleman of another party having come into office, might arm 1,000 other persons of his party. Thus a very dangerous state of things might arise.
Lord Ellenboroughsaid, he understood that two circulars had been issued; under one circular, arms might be supplied to persons for the protection of property; whilst, by the other, the magistrates were directed to prevent persons from assembling for the purpose of military exercise. Now, it happened, that under the first circular, certain persons procured arms, and proceeded to train themselves in their use; but those very parties who had taken arms under the first circular, were informed against under the second, were arrested, and were called on to find bail. So much for the uniformity of the sytem.
Lord Portmancould assure his noble Friend that no disposition existed in Bath to take any improper advantage of the power granted by the circular. If any such disposition should appear, he could assure the noble Duke that the magistrates would speedily put an end to it.

SALE OF BEER.
The Beer Act in Part Repeal Bill was reported with amendments.
Lord Brougham,in consequence of the absence of his noble Friend (the Marquess of Salisbury), would postpone the third reading of the bill till Monday next.
Lord Ellenboroughsaid, though he doubted the expediency of the House passing such a bill, still it was important to know whether it would really be pressed during the present Session. He confessed it was very unlikely that it would be postponed, still, as that seemed to be the order of the day with all important measures, such a thing might happen.
Lord Broughamsaid, there was not the lightest chance of the bill being postponed—not till the year 1842—but beyond next Monday. His object, when he introduced a measure, was for the purpose of carrying, and not postponing it. In this instance, he would not have postponed the bill till Monday, had not illness in the noble Marquess's family obliged him to be absent. He had no wish to postpone any measure brought forward by him to the Greek kalends, or what was now synonymous with them, the year 1842. His noble Friend had talked of capital invested in these beer shops, but the report of the constabulary commissioners, who had inquired into the facts, proved that many of these beer shops were kept by paupers, who scarcely possessed more furniture than a table, a chair, and a few broken jugs, in which they doled out their liquor. Though he was not friendly to frequent or long postponements, still as his bill did not compromise the good government of a whole province, he thought he might safely put it off till Monday.
The Marquess of Westminstercontended that much property was embarked in these houses, and the bill would, therefore, injure many individuals.
Earl Stanhopeimpugned the correctness of the report to which the noble and learned Lord had alluded. The parties ought not to be condemned in their absence. They ought to be allowed to adduce evidence in support of their interests.
Lord Broughamwould ask why, when the bill was referred to a Select Committee, did not the noble Earl attend and make his objection? Why did he not do so when it was before a Committee of the whole House? But no; now, on the third reading, the noble Earl wanted to have witnesses called, and evidence received. Why, if they sanctioned hearing evidence

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in that stage of a bill, they never could get through any business. He believed that the excitement of the noble Earl was not so much elicited by the report which he had attacked as by the name which was attached to it—the name of Lefevre, the name of the Speaker of the House of Commons.
Earl Stanhopesaid, that to assail the interests or the character of any class of their fellow-citizens without hearing them, was to commit the grossest injustice. That report, he would affirm, was not only false, but notoriously false.
Lord Broughamsaid, the noble Earl made a most serious charge against the Speaker of the House of Commons, and two other Gentlemen who had merely stated what they firmly and conscientiously believed with as much truth and sincerity as the noble Earl or any other noble Lord, could possibly feel.
Lord Ellenboroughthought there was much valuable information contained in the report.
Earl Stanhopeobjected, not only to the matter of the Report, but also entirely against the recommendations contained in it. He was sure, also, that he was supported in that objection by the great mass of the people.
The Earl of Radnorsaid, the noble Earl had said that Gentlemen had put their names to a report which was notoriously false. It was impossible for the noble Earl to affirm that the statements of the report were notoriously false. He (the Earl of Radnor) should say that the statements which the noble Earl had said were notoriously false were notoriously true, so far as his experience went.
Earl Stanhopesaid, some isolated facts might be true, but as a general report, the inferences were notoriously false.
The Earl of Falmouthdid not think their Lordships were inclined to pass a measure, which would inflict much injustice, without affording the parties the opportunity of opposing it. The publicans had been sacrificed by hundreds, because it was said the Beer Bill would be for the good of the country. He firmly believed that there never was a more pernicious Act of Parliament passed than the Sale of Beer Act. Much of the bad spirit which now prevailed in the country, had been begun in the beer-shops. Would their Lordships protract the alteration required, because the noble Earl (Stanhope) happened to
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think that a Select Committee was necessary? He hoped another Parliament would not be allowed to pass over without their finding a remedy for this monstrous grievance.
The Earl of Malmesburywas convinced that Colonel Rowan would not put his name to a Report, without being convinced of its truth.
Earl Stanhopewas perfectly aware that the report was signed by Colonel Rowan amongst others. He had no doubt that certain facts stated in the report were true, but general inferences were deduced from particular facts, and he again averred that they were false.
The Marquess of Lansdownesaid, his noble Friend, the Secretary for the Home Department, had made the best selection of persons he could to carry on the inquiry, and he (the Marquess of Lansdowne) did not think the noble Lord could have found three persons more fitted for the purpose, from their talents, acquaintance with facts, and unquestionable integrity. It was true, that these commissioners had had reference only to particular facts in drawing inferences as to generals, but those particular facts were collected from various parts of the country, from various classes, and referring to different periods of time. The individuals selected to make the report, had discharged their duty satisfactorily to the Government, and, he trusted, satisfactorily to Parliament.
Report received, and bill to be read a third time.