§ Their Lordships in Committee on the Prisons Bill.
§ On clause 4, which provides that the prisoners shall be furnished with the means of moral and religious instruction, "and with such suitable books as may be selected by the chaplain, or such as may be approved of by the visiting justices."
The Bishop of Londonobjected to the power of selecting books being given to the visiting justices independent of the chaplain. In his opinion, the chaplain was the proper person to intrust with the selection of books, and he should therefore move an amendment to that effect.
§ The Duke of Richmondcould see no objection to the visiting justices, with the chaplain, having the power of selecting books.
The Marquess of Salisburyhad intended to have proposed an amendment on this clause, but which would not have gone quite so far as that of the right rev. Prelate. If, however, the right rev. Prelate persisted in his motion, he should certainly vote with him. Perhaps, however, it would meet the right rev. Prelate's views, if a sort of concurrent power was given to the chaplain and justices. He would, therefore, propose, that the clause should be altered so as to run—"with such suitable books as may be selected by the chaplain, and approved by the visiting justices."
The Earl of Wicklowwas sorry that the present amendment preceded the consideration of one on which it was likely there would be such difference of opinion, one relative to the appointment of chaplains, because it appeared to him that the chaplain would very probably think it his duty not to attend a Roman Catholic prisoner to read Roman Catholic religious books. In the part of the country in which he lived, there were many clergymen who would feel it to be totally inconsistent with their duty, to allow a Roman Catholic 478 to peruse books advocating the tenets of a creed different from their own. On this account he was anxious to avoid the possibility of such an intervention, and he should therefore vote against the amendment of the right rev. Prelate.
The Bishop of Londonobserved, that if he were appealed to, as the diocesan, he should take any clergyman to task who refused to allow a Roman Catholic prisoner the perusal of books written by members of his own religious persuasion. He did not, however, think it unnecessary, that a discretion in the selection of such books should be confided even to a Protestant clergyman, as there were some books used by Roman Catholics, which were highly objectionable. One he would refer to in particular, which was a very favourite book—he meant the Garden of the Soul.
The Bishop of Exeterwas bound to vote against the amendment of his right rev. Friend, because he felt it impossible, for his own part, to put into the hands of a Roman Catholic, books containing doctrines of which he could not conscientiously approve; and he should have thought it impossible, if he had not heard the contrary from so high an authority, that any clergyman could be a consenting party to putting into the hands of one of the prisoners, books which advocated doctrines different from his own.
§ Amendmentwithdrawn.—Clause agreed to.
§ On the 17th Clause, which provides that Roman Catholic chaplains shall be appointed to the gaols, being proposed,
§ The Marquess of Salisbury moved that it be expunged.
The Bishop of Lincolnobjected to the principle involved in this clause. It was the first instance in which they had proposed to legislate for the payment of ministers of any other religion than the Established Church. Were the inmates of prisons the only persons who deserved the commiseration of the Government of this country? If they provided instruction for Dissenters and Roman Catholics in prisons, they would shortly be called upon to find instruction for Roman Catholics and Dissenters in other cases. He acknowledged that all who contributed to the support of the State were entitled to receive education, but then it ought to be given by the clergy of the Established Church. Whether chaplains should be 479 appointed to workhouses under the poor law, depended entirely on the board of guardians; but what had the Poor Law Commissioners done? They said to the board of guardians, "If you appoint a chaplain at all, he must be of the Established Church." They had by that shown that they understood on what the connexion of Church and State in this country rested. This clause went, in his opinion, to the co-establishment, if he might coin the word, with the Church, of all religious denomination.
The Bishop of Durhamsaid, the inmates of prisons were deprived of any religious instruction which they might get elsewhere; and he would ask whether they were to go without it at all, or whether they were not precisely the persons to whom religious instruction and consolation were most necessary, to whom it was most charitable to give it, and most cruel to deny it? The case was entirely sui generis, and therefore not likely to become a precedent, or to be of that dangerous character which the right rev. Prelate seemed to think.
§ Lord Wharncliffesaid, that, according to law, the ministers of any religion to which a prisoner belonged had access to him at all times, and therefore there was not, in point of fact, any want of spiritual instruction in the prisons; and he agreed with the right rev. Prelate, that their Lordships ought not to open the doors wider in favour of Catholics and Dissenters.
§ The Duke of Richmondconcurred entirely with what had just been stated by the noble Lord. If the principle were good for any thing, why should they limit it to fifty persons? It ought to be as applicable to one as to fifty.
The Earl of Fingallwould support the clause. He regretted to hear the opinion of the noble Duke who preceded him, knowing that the noble Duke had paid great attention to this subject, and had had great experience in all matters connected with it, and also because he had heard the noble Duke recently say, he thought great advantage would result from separate confinement, which was one of the objects of this bill, and the greatest advantage from instruction by Roman Catholics. The noble Duke had said the principle was bad, or why limit the clause to the number of fifty; but surely there must be some definite number, and after an inquiry 480 in the gaols, the number of fifty had been fixed on. It appeared that in many of the gaols the number of Roman Catholics was very considerable; in Liverpool, on an average, 174, so that fifty was thought to be a very good limit. The right rev. Prelate had said, that the principle was new. Undoubtedly, in England it was so; but it had been recognised in Ireland; for every gaol there had a Catholic as well as a Protestant chaplain.
The Earl of Wicklowagreed with the noble Earl who had just spoken, that the principle had been established in Ireland, so that it could not be called a new principle in the British dominions. The question was, whether it were advisable and just to adopt the principle in the gaols of this country. It was, however, a curious fact, and he believed it was not less true, that between the Roman Catholic and Protestant chaplains in the gaols in Ireland there was not a single instance of any ill-will or dissension having arisen. It appeared to him that the right reverend Prelate who first spoke would have been more justified in asking whether the Roman Catholic priesthood were to be at all admitted into the gaols; but that was allowed by law, so that the present question was one rather of prudence than of principle, as to how far their Lordships would sanction this claim as a guard, and watch over the manner in which that duty should be performed. As to the limit being so large a number as fifty, the power of the clause would probably only be exercised in large towns; and could anything be more objectionable than that every prisoner should choose some person to whom he would apply for spiritual instruction? He thought, therefore, that prudence and good policy required this regulation of appointing one chaplain, and that the visiting magistrates should have control over the education of the gaols. The result of that would be infinitely better than under the present system. Their Lordships would, see, too, that there was nothing compulsory in the clause. It rested with the visiting magistrates, if they thought fit, to appoint a chaplain; and he thought that London and Liverpool were the only two places that would avail themselves of the power.
The Bishop of Londonsaid, that the noble Earl had taken notice of this clause not being compulsory on the magistrates 481 to exercise the power which it conferred. A little consideration, however, would show that that which was said to be discretionary would be virtually compulsory on the magistrates. Then, as to the advantage to be derived from the circumstance of any chaplain not of the Established Church being chosen by the visiting magistrates, that, he thought, would in all cases be questionable; but as to the case of selecting Roman Catholic chaplains in Ireland, it was merely nominal, for the selection was always made by the Roman Catholic bishops. With regard to this not being altogether a new principle, they were come to that at last. Their Lordships were told when the bill in question and another bill for extending privileges to Roman Catholics in Ireland were before them, "the Established Church need never fear that this would be drawn into a precedent for England; the cases are quite different." Upon many noble Lords in that House an impression had been made by that statement. It was undoubtedly a new principle in this country, and he hoped their Lordships would not sanction it. Great inconvenience, too, would arise from it, because it was a wrong principle. It was impossible to doubt, that if this advantage were given—he spoke with the greatest respect towards the Roman Catholic Church—looking to the present state of controversy between the two churches—that it would be made the means of making proselytes in the prisons. The Roman Catholic priest would take advantage in the prisons of these peculiar opportunities which his religion afforded him for dissemminating his faith, and many months would not elapse before many Roman Catholics would be found in the gaols. But supposing the number of Roman Catholics to be so low as forty or forty-five in any prison, how would they get rid of the Roman Catholic priest? With respect to paying and not paying these ministers was all the difference, and not between the inmates of these prisons receiving or not receiving spiritual consolation. He believed there was no difficulty of persons of different religious persuasions receiving consolation in our prisons, but there it was wholly gratuitous. If their Lordships sanctioned this clause, they might at some future day have the melancholy satisfaction of looking back and saying, that they, from motives of charity, had done that which had ended in the subver- 482 sion of true religion, and the subversion of all religion—veneration and respect being paid to none. He hoped, therefore, that their Lordships would not accede to this clause.
The Lore Chancellorsaid, this did not involve any general question; and if there were on the part of the right rev. Prelate any apprehension of danger from Roman Catholic priests being admitted into the prisons, and thereby making proselytes, he should say that the clause ought to be adopted to guard against that danger because if there was danger as the law now stood it would be lessened by this clause, as there would be only one Roman Catholic priest admitted where many were admitted before; and that one, too, in the power of certain individuals and capable of being removed. Let their Lordships consider what they did if they rejected this clause. They were denying to the Roman Catholic in prison spiritual consolation altogether. Could it be supposed that they would receive it from the clergy of the Established Church? They might be disciplined by the clergy of their own persuasion, but it was not in the nature of things, that gratuitous attendance to 170 Roman Catholics would be furnished by any member of the Roman Catholic clergy. The question, therefore, for their Lordships was, whether these unfortunate persons were to go without spiritual consolation or not?
The Bishop of Exetersaid, that it was rather remarkable that two very different modes of argument had been used for supporting this clause. In Ireland, it was said, the number of Roman Catholics was supreme, and therefore, it was right to adopt it, and in England it was to be adopted because they were so few. Now, if there were any principle involved in this clause, and that there was, he thought the speech of the right rev. Prelate below him had shown—was that to be sacrificed for those two instances? But he would in candour say to the noble and learned Lord on the woolsack, that if there were any justice in his argument, it would grown very rapidly why this clause was passed, and within a very short time there would be a great proportion of Roman Catholics in our gaols. The effect of this clause would be, that the Roman Catholics of England, who were very anxious to disseminate their religion, would actually bribe the prisoners to declare themselves Roman Catholics, so that soon there would 483 be Roman Catholic chaplains in every gaol in England. All that the Roman Catholics would be required to do, who profess themselves members of that Church would be, to attend a service which every peer and every commoner, of the highest rank in this country, did attend for many years after the Reformation. The Roman Catholic religion had some very peculiar considerations connected with it, which made it exceedingly desirable that they should ask what effect this measure, if passed, was likely to have. If there were one system of religion more than another that was dangerous for prisons, it was the Roman Catholic. When he reminded their Lordships of the tremendous doctrine of absolution of the Church of Rome, he thought they would find no difficulty in that belief. He did not want their assent to the danger of this doctrine without proof. He had got the evidence given before their Lordships' House in 1825, by John Burnett, a Dissenting Independent minister, on this subject. He was hostile to the Church of England, and very friendly to what was called Catholic Emancipation. That gentleman said,—
No Roman Catholic of the lower orders has any dread of final perdition. I have spoken with them frequently on the subject, and never found one of them that supposed he could go to hell. If they die in mortal sin, their doctrine is, that they must go to perdition; if, however, they apply to the priest for absolution, he must give it.He went on further, and said,—The confidence of the people in their absolution, which follows confession, is such as completely to destroy in their minds any fear of future punishment. I have found this to be the case generally, and in cases where they are convicted in courts of justice they very seldom show anything like a feeling sense of their situation, which I conceive arises solely from the conviction, that the absolution enjoyed at the hands of the priest will do everything for them. I have seen myself thirty-five individuals in the dock together, sentenced to death, and I could not perceive the least degree of emotion, in consequence of the pronouncing of sentence, all which I attributed to the confidence placed in the absolution of the clergy.When he found this to be the effect of the Roman Catholic religion, he should hesitate long before he assented to any measure like that proposed to their Lordships. He should feel bound in principle to resist such a measure if the 484 cases of hardship were numerous, though he should do it with pain; but as it was, when such was not the case, and such tremendous consequences were involved, he should certainly resist the measure.
§ The House divided on the question, that the clause be expunged—Contents 76; Not-Contents 34: Majority 42.
485| List of the CONTENTS. | |
| ARCHBISHOPS. | Strathallan |
| Canterbury | De Vesci |
| Armagh. | Hawarden |
| DUKES. | St. Vincent |
| Richmond | Melville |
| Rutland | Gort |
| Dorset | Canterbury. |
| Wellington. | BISHOPS. |
| MARQUESSES. | London |
| Salisbury | Lincoln |
| Bute | St. David's |
| Downshire | Carlisle |
| Cholmondeley | Exeter |
| Ormonde. | Ely. |
| EARLS. | LORDS. |
| Pembroke | De Ros |
| Devon | Saltoun |
| Shaftesbury | Sinclair |
| Morton | Colville |
| Moray | Monson |
| Galloway | Sondes |
| Airlie | Grantley |
| Dartmouth | Montagu |
| Harrington | Douglas |
| Warwick | Calthorpe |
| Delawarr | Dunsany |
| Mansfield | Farnham |
| Roden | Redesdale |
| Clanwilliam | Ellenborough |
| Bandon | Glenlyon |
| Rosslyn | Ravensworth |
| Chichester | Rayleigh |
| Manvers | Bexley |
| Harrowby | Wharncliffe |
| Verulam | Feversham |
| Glengall | Lyndhurst |
| Eldon | Tenterden |
| Falmouth | Cowley |
| Munster | Stuart de Rothesay |
| Ripon. | Wynford |
| VISCOUNTS. | De L'Isle. |
| Hereford |
| List of the NOT-CONTENTS. | |
| DUKE. | Zetland |
| Argyll. | Charlemont |
| MARQUESSES. | Gosford |
| Lansdowne | Clarendon |
| Normanby | Scarborough |
| Conyngham. | Wicklow |
| EARLS. | Cork. |
| Ilchester | VISCOUNTS. |
| Effingham | Melbourne |
| Fingall | Duncannon |
| Uxbridge | Falkland |
| Torrington, | Saye and Sele |
| LORDS. | Poltimore |
| Holland | Cottenham |
| Lilford | Byron |
| Wrottesley | Vaux |
| Seaford | Foley |
| Denman | Vernon. |
| De Mauley | BISHOP. |
| Colborne | Durham. |
| Paired off. | |
| NOT-CONTENTS. | CONTENTS. |
| Mostyn | Buckingham |
| Stanley | Forester |
| Segrave | Westmeath |
| Lismore | Abercorn |
| Burlington | Jersey |
| Roxburgh | Selkirk |
| Shrewsbury | Caernarvon |
| Kintore | Doneraile |
| Strafford | Exmouth |
| Sherborne | Bradford |
| Kinnaird | Leven |
| Sefton | Clare |
| Lovat | Wallace |
| Camperdown | Dalhousie |
| Sutherland | Orkney |
| Bruce | Maryborough |
| Carew | Courtoun |
| Yarborough | Beresford |
| Rosebery | Sydney |
| Petre | Digby |
| Erroll | Kenyon |
| Cloncurry | Downes |
| Hatherton | Thomond |
| Lovelace | Ely |
| Thanet | Huntley |
| Radnor | Beaufort |
| Headfort | De Grey |
| Crewe | Wilton |
| Gardner | Prudhoe |
| Ducie | Reay |
| Langdale | Strangford |
| Tavistock | Sandwich |
| Lichfield | Aberdeen |
| Montfort | Beverly |
| Somerset | Londonderry |
| Portman | Sheffield |
| Carrington | Limerick |
| Breadalbane | Haddington |
| Belhaven | Eglintoun |
| Lynedoch | Mountcashel |
| Cowper. | Canning. |
§ Remaining clauses agreed to. Bill reported.