HL Deb 12 February 1839 vol 45 cc261-73
The Earl of Hardwicke

begged to call the attention of the House to a question which their Lordships might consider of little importance, but it was one, he could assure them, which the public out of doors considered of very great importance. The question which he wished to address to the noble Lord opposite was, whether he had yet made up his mind as to the system he intended to adopt with regard to the question of naval education. Till about two years ago there existed a seminary at Portsmouth, called the Royal Naval College; it was then abolished, the noble Lord opposite having conceived that the youths would be better educated afloat. The noble Lord was quite aware that be (Earl H.) had taken a deep interest in the subject, and finding that two years had elapsed and no other system had been adopted, he considered that he was perfectly justified in putting the question to the noble Lord. The system carried on in the college to which he had referred was that youths of thirteen years of age were entered for the purpose of receiving, gradually, instruction in the theory of the naval profession. They were taught the principles of geometry, astronomy, and all other branches of education useful in the naval service, all of which they afterwards applied practically afloat. They were also instructed in the principles of hydrostatics, in ship-building, and in fortification, and, having completed a plan of study, (within a given time, the youth was permitted to go into the navy, and he was allowed in estimating the time he was obliged to serve before he could be promoted, to reckon as two years the time spent in the College. These youths were instructed in the dockyard; they had the advantage of seeing ships docked—no mean advantage, he could assure their Lordships, for many officers in the navy had not seen that operation performed; they went through a system of education which enabled them at once to become useful in the situation of a midshipman. There was also this advantage, that youths between the tender age of twelve and fifteen were educated on shore, almost under the parental eye—and they could not go outside the gates of the college without seeing something instructive to them for their profession. If they completed their education in two years or less they were allowed two years time: if they completed their education within three years they were allowed only two years; and if they did not complete it within three years they were turned out as incapable. The system also cost the Government nothing. In the estimates of either 1832 or 1833, the last time the College was mentioned, it was put down for 500l., but there was a note attached which stated that the next estimate would be nill. That system was abolished. The noble Lord opposite adopted a plan for educating the youths afloat; he proposed to get gentlemen from Oxford and Cambridge, men of high attainments, who were to have the privilege of sitting at table and messing with the officers, and other advantages were held out to them—those gentlemen were to keep schools aboard ship. The former plan, in his opinion, was of much more advantage to the youth of so tender an age—he was exempted from walking the deck during the night-watches—he was sheltered from the wet and cold, and he at all times was under parental care. On the other hand, at sea he was exposed to all the inclemencies of the weather, which alone would render it impossible that any system of education could be carried on. The changes of situation the making and shortening of sail—the visiting new ports—all would distract attention from study—these were the two plans, and this, so far as he was aware, was a fair comparison between them. The next point of importance to be considered was the cost. The college cost nothing when it was abolished, but he believed that he was right in stating, that the pensions to the officers amounted to 1,500l. a year. There were twenty-one sail of the line afloat, as they were told; the twenty-one schoolmasters in them could not cost less than 100l. a year each, which gave at once a sum of 3,500l. increase of expense caused by the abolition of the college. Was the system even carried into effect, he would ask—was he wrong in saying, that the system had altogether failed, and that the noble Lord, with all his blandishments, during the whole period of two years, had not been able to induce more than six gentlemen to enter as schoolmas- ters. He might then say, that the navy of this country—the navy to which the gentry of England naturally looked as a profession for some of their children, had been absolutely for two years without any education, which he considered a point of some considerable importance to the country at large. He had never heard any objection to the former plan, except that which would apply to every plan. He had heard some of his brother officers say, that they could not manage these youths—that they came on board full of mathematics, and were fit for no duty, which might very well be called stuff. He never yet saw a youth that could not be managed by some means or other. If the Government had taken care that the youths should have been obliged to keep up to the pitch of education which they had received, and to carry it forward, if for instance, the noble Lord had appointed a lieutenant to each ship to look after that class of youths, to make them work their observations, and to make all the calculations necessary in navigating a ship, the minds of the youths would have been kept in progress, and their education would not have been thrown away. Wherever the former system of education had failed, he had no hesitation in saying, that it was the fault of the officers. The youths were neglected, and when they intended to come up to pass as lieutenants, there was a constant necessity for re-priming and re-loading. He should be glad to hear from the noble Earl upon what grounds the establishment was abolished—he was at a loss to discover, because the college cost nothing, the expence being the only charge which the economists could bring against it. While he was upon the subject, he would like to say a few words with respect to the naval architectural school. He believed that it was necessary to get rid of that establishment, because it educated men so highly, that unless they found situations for them, there was a danger of that education being transferred to the service of a foreign power, though there was a stipulation between the Government and the young men who entered apprentices to the system. They were told that they should rise gradually from the situation of foreman to surveyor of the navy, which situation was to be their goal. He was afraid, however, that after that seminary was established, very little had been done for those young men. He was informed that very lately no less than twelve vacancies had fallen in of situations which these young men were capable of filling, and yet only one had been promoted. He was anxious that the service should have the advantage of the talents of those young men, and he was as anxious that they should be rewarded. Before the establishment of that seminary, our naval architecture was entirely borrowed from foreigners; and he might safely say, that before that period it was carried on very much by the rule of thumb—but it was greatly improved since inducements were held out to young men to study naval architecture. Originally they were to be eligible to certain offices, but many of them had since been abolished. The offices of master shipwright, and inspector of naval works, with many others, had been abolished, which used to be considered as so many incentives to good conduct on the part of the shipwrights. Who was first surveyor of the navy now? a naval officer, who never had been a shipwright. Thus and thus the boon which had been held out to that class of young men, had been taken away. Ought not the House to do something for so useful a set of men, who had been educated, and who, by agreement, were to be treated upon a certain footing? Twenty-two of them were now in the various dock-yards—one was the surveyor's assistant; one was in the East India service, and one was settled in America as a professor in one of the colleges in that country, having carried all his science with him. He hoped the noble Lord at the head of the Admiralty would remember this highly educated, and highly gifted class of men, and in any alterations which he might make in the naval service, be kind enough to adhere, as nearly as he could, to the intentions which had been professed towards them; he begged in conclusion, to ask the noble Lord what system of education he meant to adopt in the naval service?

The Earl of Minto

said, that if he had had the least idea that the noble Lord in giving notice that he meant to ask a question, intended to go so much at large into the subjects upon which he had dwelt, both of naval education and of naval architecture, he should have come down prepared with documents, and should therefore have been able to answer the noble Lord, not only more in detail, but also in a more satisfactory manner. Nevertheless, he should proceed shortly and, he hoped, clearly to answer the noble Lord. First, with regard to the system of naval instruction which he intended to establish. But before he did so, he must express his surprise that though the Naval College had been for some time abolished this was the first opportunity upon which a complaint had been made respecting the abolition.

The Earl of Hardwicke

begged to explain that he brought the subject forward in consequence of the many complaints he had heard upon the question of naval education.

The Earl of Minto

as to the abolition of the Naval College, he might, if he choose divest himself of all responsibility upon the subject; for that had been determined upon previous to his coming into office, in consequence of a pledge to that effect, which had been previously given in the House of Commons. Upon coming into the department over which he presided, he made inquiry as to the college, and as to the prospect of success which it afforded; and he must say, that all the information he received went directly to show its inefficiency; the answers of all the most experienced officers to whom he referred were generally to the same effect. He was told that the education given in the college had entirely failed, either in producing highly-instructed officers, or of making seamen of officers after they left the college. The opinion prevalent respecting the college was, that it began at the wrong end, that boys were instructed in matters the use of which they could not divine; and that they learned to make calculations without exactly knowing the objects to which it was intended to apply them; and that they were set on board a ship, ignorant of what they ought to know. To prove how little benefit was derived from the college, he had a list to show how many had been unsuccessful at their last examination. The return showed how many young gentleman sought to pass for lieutenants. He could not answer for the accuracy of the return, as he did not come prepared with an official one, not knowing that the subject would have been entered into with so much detail. The return however to which he referred shewed that at one time there were 171 examined, of these there were forty-nine college midshipmen, and out of these fourteen were turned back; of those who had not been educated in the college there were one hundred and twenty-two examined, and of these forty-two were turned back. The proportion of those who were not collegians was rather greater than of those who were. It was to be remembered too, that boys coming from the college were always put into the best ships, and where there were schoolmasters, while the others had to take their chance in the service. As to the expense of the college, the noble Earl had made a mistake upon that point, but that was, indeed, a very trifling part of the question, and one that ought not at all to be considered. He thought the expense of the college had been about 2,000l. a year, but if it were five thousand instead of two, it should be willingly incurred, if the college attained the object for which it had been established. In the last year of the existence of the college but very few applications for admission to it had been made. There was no doubt but that the boys went out of the college well instructed in certain things; but they lost afterwards the knowledge they had gained there. It appeared, then, to him that the much better, as well as the more simple course to be pursued, was to provide education on board ship, where boys might receive instruction of the utmost importance to them, and where they might become seamen and skilful officers, and acquire habits which could alone be obtained at an early period of life. One very serious objection that had been made with respect to the instruction given at the college was, that it was an exclusive establishment; that it provided for one part of the service, and left the other parts of the service totally unprovided for. Now, with regard to the system which he proposed to establish, he regarded it as far superior to that which he had described; and he had also to say respecting it, that as far as it had gone, it had been found to be eminently successful. There was, he had to remark, a most eminently successful school of instruction, of highly practical education for young men, on board the Excellent. What he sought for was, to place on board of ships men highly qualified to act as schoolmasters. He could not help repeating, that in the attaining such an object as the imparting of the best naval education, expense was a matter not to be considered. It had been complained that the schoolmasters in the navy were very indifferently paid. It had been complained of by gentlemen calculated to impart the best instruction, that they had not a cabin, that they had no fitting position in the ship, that they had no hold on the service, and that when a ship was paid off their connexion with the service ceased. He felt the justice of their complaints, and in endeavouring to put an end to them, he considered himself justified in seeking for gentlemen of higher qualifications than those who had previously acted as schoolmasters. He raised the character of the situation by allowing those gentlemen to mess with the officers, and to have a cabin, and by giving them a small retiring allowance, something in the same manner as chaplains. [The Earl of Hardwicke: How many gentlemen did the noble Lord get to accept the situation?] He was coming to that. He observed, that various difficulties occurred in the outset, as to the procuring of gentlemen of the class and attainments which he wished for; but there were now fifteen or sixteen gentlemen who had all, or nearly all, been graduates of the University of Cambridge, most of them having been wranglers. That was the present state of the progress, in the new and improved establishment of schoolmasters for the navy. It was very short of what was necessary,—it was very short of what was desirable; but, in the mean time, they still had on board the old schoolmasters. Such, then, was the present state of education on board ship. It was a great deal better than what it had been; but it was greatly short of that which he desired to see it. He should not trouble their Lordships farther on the subject of the college; but to say that it really had not been suppressed on account of the expense incurred in maintaining it; but because the expense was ill-applied, and the establishment did not answer the purpose for which it had been instituted. There was another subject which had been dwelt upon by the noble Lord—it was that of the school of naval architecture. That, he must say, had been regarded as not answering the expectations of its founders. From that school had come a number of ingenious young men; but not shipwrights. Whatever scientific knowledge they possessed, they were found to be less fitted for higher offices in the dock-yard than those who had gone through the ordinary long apprenticeship. A certain number of them had been allowed to retire from the service; but not one of them, certainly not more than one of them, had followed out the profession of a builder. It was quite true, as was stated by the noble Lord, that an expectation had been held out to them, that they should be deemed eligible for promotion to the highest situations in the department. He did not conceive that those who were engaged in founding the establishment were so imprudent as to give a pledge that those persons, whether fit or unfit, should be promoted. All be presumed that had been done was, that they cœteris paribus, should have a fair chance, and that they might look to those offices. What, then, had happened? That every one of these gentlemen had received advancement without exception. He did not believe that they had been advanced to the highest ranks in the department, because there were many older officers in it, who had higher claims, longer standing, and of well-known ability and experience, and there was no reason why those older servants should be passed over, for the purpose of providing for young men. In every instance these young men had been advanced, and he was sure that, in every instance when it was found that a pupil of the school of naval architecture was as well qualified as his rival might be, the balance was made always to incline in favour of the former.

The Earl of Hardwicke

remarked, that before the formation of the school of naval architecture, the mode of building in the English navy was unscientific, and that, as he had before expressed it, they went by "the rule of thumb."

The Earl of Minto

understood, that the objection of the noble Earl was, that the system of ship-building had been unscientific. He took it for granted, that the noble Earl alleged that the same system was continued under the present surveyor of the navy. Now, it did happen, that the very best ships—he repeated it, the very best ships that had ever gone out to sea—the very best ships that had ever been in an English dock-yard, were the work of two uninstructed naval officers,—one of these officers was the late Admiral Hayes, an officer of infinite talent and of great experience, and the other was the work of the present surveyor of the navy. He would answer for it, that if an inquiry were made among the of- ficers in the service, or of the officers the most experienced in the French and Russian navies, it would be declared, that the Vanguard was the finest man-of-war that ever sailed on the sea. He did not express his own opinion, for he felt it to be his duty to consult the most experienced officers, and those out of his department, as well as those connected with it, and he did say, that he had not yet heard that any of the ships built by Professor Inman had been considered to be a ship of superior merit. The noble Earl had said, that the gentlemen educated as naval architects had not been fairly treated. He must admit that he had not taken and put young men over the heads of older men. The pupils in naval architecture were highly ingenious; excellent young men had come from that school; but they had no claims to give them a preference over those who had greater experience and equal talent with themselves. In time those gentlemen would rise to much higher situations; if not to the very highest. He was sure that those gentlemen must know themselves that the Board of Admiralty meant kindly towards them, and that he was disposed to consider their claims as he was bound to look to the claims of others; but then he could not consent to put them over the heads of superior officers, and those who were older, and, from their experience, better qualified than themselves.

The Earl of Hardwicke

stated, that there had been in this country no men of original science upon this subject. They borrowed from foreigners; and he believed, that to this day they had no work upon naval architecture, and even upon this subject Chapman (a Swede) was quoted as the very best authority. He had one word to say as to Professor Inman, and as to the allegation that no ship of a superior class had been built by him. [The Earl of Minto: I said that they were inferior.] Granted; and why? Had any Lord of the Admiralty ever given a professor permission to build a ship, as Captain Symonds had had permission—to build not only on his own lines, but on his own tonnage?

The Earl of Minto

said, with regard to the competition with Captain Symonds, he could only say, that a very few months before the lamented death of Admiral Hayes, he did make an offer to him to build on his own tonnage. In faet, the tonnage was not the restriction which it was thought right to put on the building. But the most potent and useful restriction was this, that the ship should carry certain masts, yards, and sails, so many months' provisions, and then the architect might build his ship as he liked. If he built his ship too large, she was good for nothing; and if too small, she was good for nothing. They had allowed every man to build as he thought proper, subject to these conditions—that they must be ships to carry certain yards, men, masts, and sails; and they were quite sure that the builder would not have a bolt in them more than was proper.

Viscount Melville

was not sure that he could come to the same conclusions on this subject at which his noble Friend opposite had arrived. He had during the latter years of the war endeavoured to enforce the highest system of education amongst the officers of the navy; and that that had been acted upon was well known to every one conversant with naval affairs. In point of science, of education, and of accomplishments, the officers of the navy were now placed upon a higher ground than they ever had been at any former period. He differed from his noble Friend as to the opinion he expressed, as to the character of the naval college; for he knew that highly educated officers had been turned out of that school. He thought, then, that it was very impolitic to put down one establishment until they had another fully capable of supplying its place; and it was evident that some time must elapse before the new plan of education could be successfully carried into effect. When the noble Earl opposite al-alluded to the Naval College and referred to the number of officers educated in it who had been turned back, he did not think that the noble Earl had specified the particular year in which this occurrence had taken place; but, admitting its accuracy, one circumstance might be stated in explanation of it. There was one rule which he recollected was enforced with respect to all gentlemen educated in that college—namely, that after they left the college certain papers were in each year required to be worked by them, so that when they came to be examined it was found that they were as well versed in all branches of knowledge as when they left the college. When his noble Friend, then put an end to the college, that system must also have been abandoned. As to the school of naval architecture, it had been established before his time; but during his time there could not be found situations for the number of young men educated there. That there was a necessity for such a school was evident from the fact that the French always built better ships than were built here.

The Earl of Minto

declared that there was no man more anxious than himself, perhaps none so anxious as he was, to raise the character of the schools for education in the navy. He quite agreed as to all that had been said by officers being more highly educated than they had been; but still there was room for very great improvement. He should have stated, after mentioning what had been done with regard to providing schoolmasters, that one part of the system was not yet at work, but he hoped it would be in a few months, and it had only been delayed by his extreme anxiety to retain the services of gentlemen sufficiently well qualified. The system was partly a revival of the college in another shape. The objection which he had formerly felt to the college was, that the instruction commenced at a wrong period of the young gentlemen's services, and that it would have been better applied after six years' service at sea. He had therefore last year obtained an Order in Council for the establishment, in the first instance of a small school (and he was sure his noble Friend would agree with him that it was necessary to go gently in the first instance), which was intended to be combined with that of the Excellent. The Excellent being the chief school of gunnery in that country, in which the elements of mathematics were also taught. The advantages of that system might be afterwards extended; but the scientific education at present given on board ships was limited in its operation, and few could go through it. It was intended that the course of gunnery instruction on board the Excellent should be most strictly followed out, and the system would be such as to enable any officer, on application, to be examined as to his skill in gunnery. As he had before stated, the delay was owing to the difficulty he had of satisfying himself of the qualifications of those applying for the appointment. Such was a mere outline of the plan proposed. With regard to one other point on which great stress had been laid—the examinations supposed to be carried on on board ship, after the young gentleman had left college—he had taken some pains to ascertain what the instruction ought to be but he had not yet been able to satisfy himself on that point.

Lord Colchester

observed, that, with respect to the examination papers, which it had been the rule to send to every ship that the pupils might return them with answers, he could only say, as far as his own ship was concerned, during thre years that the college existed, these papers were regularly sent. But he did not know anything of the custom of returning them every month. When they were received, the questions were worked and the answers regularly returned, in obedience to the rule. This he asserted with respect to his own frigate. He could not say what was done by other officers in the service. He understood the noble Earl's objection to the naval college was, that the pupils had no opportunity of acquiring practical knowledge there, and that when they went on board ship they lost the scientific and theoretical acquisitions they had made in college by not having them kept up; and the noble Earl proposed that instead of this arrangement there should be a college of a higher description, in which young men should enter at a more advanced age, and after passing their examination in practical seamanship. Now, he must be permitted to observe, in reference to the old system, that the noble Earl had admitted that the education of the college was good while it lasted, and that what was taught there was taught well. As to the neglect on board ship in not keeping up the information gained at college, the blame should rest with those whose duty it was to see that it was kept up—the captain and the schoolmaster. If their duties had been enforced the system might have worked very well. Further, as to what the young gentleman really did learn at the naval college, it was a mistake to suppose that they were merely engaged in learning mathematics. During his own time they had been taught to work great guns, to row boats, and to perform some other naval operations, and that he thought was as much seamanship as could be expected in boys from thirteen to fifteen. With reference to the statement that the ships built by Professor Inman had been the worst, he must say that with this opinion he did not agree. The professor of the college had never had to build a vessel of larger size than an eight-and twenty gun frigate.

Subject dropped.