Lords Sitting of 26 August 1839

MINUTES.
Bills. Received the Royal Assent:—Administration of Justice (Parts of Counties); Poor-law Commission Continuance; Poor-rates Collection; Bastardy; Bankrupts (Ireland); Manchester Police; Birmingham Police; London Bridge Approaches.—Read a second time:—Bank of Ireland Act Continuance; Fisheries (England and France) s Exchequer Bills Funding.—Read a third time:—Duke of Marlborough's Pension; Fines and Penalties (Ireland); Exchequer Bills; Consolidated Fund.
Petitions presented. By Lord Redesdale, from the General Assembly of Scotland, against the Ministerial plan for National Education.—By Lord Brougham, from Cork, against the Operation of the Grand Jury Cess s from the Rational Religionists of Bradford, against the Imprisonment of a Debtor, on account of his religious opinions; from the Guardians of the Kennington Union, against certain Charges brought against them.

FOREIGN RELATIONS.
Viscount Strangfordhad one or two questions to put to the noble Viscount opposite, upon very important subjects. He was desirous of knowing whether any proper and effectual steps had been taken in concert with the American government to prevent the recurrence during the ensuing winter along the Canadian frontier of that frighful system of aggression on the one hand, and scarcely avoidable retaliation on the other, because, if that system were pursued, it was likely to lead to the most fatal results, so far as regarded the good understanding and harmony of the two countries? That morning he had received a deputation of merchants connected with the North American trade, who stated, that some time ago a memorial had been presented on the subject to her Majesty's Government, and they had requested him to recal to the noble Viscount's recollection the prediction which had been embodied in that memorial. The other question to which he wished to call the noble Viscount's attention was, whether there was any reason-

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able hope or prospect of a termination of those hostilities which had been so long protracted between France and the republic of Buenos Ayres? Those hostilities had lately assumed a very aggravated form, and not long ago they had received information of the destruction of an entire fleet of small vessels laden with British property, which had been literally burnt to the water's edge by order of the French authorities. Really, when one looked at these things, whether occurring in North America or Africa, he felt bound to say, that the time was come when it would be necessary for this country to address some remonstrance to the French Government. It would be only necessary for him to say two words—"Coercion", and "Canada." It was unnecessary for him to give any notice for the next Session; but it was his intention, at the earliest stage of their meeting there again, to advert to the indignities and injuries which their fellow-subjects had endured on the coast of Africa, at the hands of certain local authorities there. He looked upon these things as a deep stain upon the national honour, and if by that time the representatives of the British Government had not obtained redress, it would be probably for their Lordships to consider how far it 1 would be prudent in them to present an humble address to the Throne, imploring her Majesty's protection for her faithful subjects.
Viscount Melbournesaid, he was happy to be able to inform the noble Lord, that every disposition prevailed, both in the United States, North America, and Ca-nada, to prevent a continuance of those proceedings which had unfortunately taken place for the last two years there. With regard to the second question, the blockade of the River La Plata, he was aware there had been no cessation of the conduct that had been pursued in that part of the globe, but he had the satisfaction of assuring the noble Lord, that the Government of France were most anxious to bring those proceedings to a close, and he was in confident hope that, ere long, they would be so.

THE FISHERIES.
Viscount Melbourne Viscount Melbourne moved the Order of the Day for the second reading of the Fisheries (England and France) Bill,
The Duke of Wellingtonhad read the bill, and did not object to it; but he must
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say, that it was not fair to the public to have bills of any description hurried through Parliament in the manner now proposed.
Viscount Melbournesaid, that that would certainly be true if the bills required any consideration, but this one did not: it was merely to carry into effect a treaty settling the distances from the respective shores of the two countries where the fishermen might resort, and fixing the regulations of the fisheries.
The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, the bill might as well have been before the House at an earlier period.
Lord Broughamperfectly agreed with the noble Duke, that this was not the way to do business; and he had been telling his noble Friend, the noble Viscount so sometime past. It was no reason to say, that the noble Duke had read the Act and the Treaty, seeing that the noble Duke's attendance was most unparalleled for punctuality and perseverance. The noble Duke never missed being in the House at the sitting of it, he never went until it was up, and looked to all the business, and attended to every bill. Certainly no other noble Lord had read the documents.
The Duke of Wellington: There is but one copy in the House.
Viscount Melbourne: There must bean exception made in those cases which occur suddenly—the events which happen in human affairs, war or peace—treaties and conventions—will not wait for the close of our Sessions, or the convenience of our recesses.
Lord Brougham: Oh, certainly, that is a proper exception.
Bill read a second time.

BOLTON POLICE.
On the question that the Commons' Amendments to the Bolton Police Bill be agreed to.
The Duke of Wellingtonobserved, that the amendment returned by the Commons had no relation to the previous amendments made by their Lordships. He should not oppose the Commons' amendment, but he wished to protest against that mode of proceeding as irregular.
Amendment agreed to, a special entry having been made on their Lordships' journals, that their Lordships' agreement in this instance might not be drawn into a precedent.

NATIONAL EDUCATION.
Lord Broughamhad to move their Lordships for a copy of the charter of the London University, for the rules of the said university, and the degrees conferred thereby. He could not take leave for this Session, and perhaps for ever, of the greatest subject which could occupy the attention of rulers and lawgivers—the education of the people—without offering a few words to their Lordships on the peculiar position in which this great question now stood. If their Lordships were to conclude by a resolution, pledging themselves to proceed by a bill next Session, they would perform their duty in a manner which would redound to the honour of Parliament, to the credit of the Government, and to the peace and satisfaction of their own minds. Nothing could more clearly show the progress which the question of education had made than the debate on the subject this Session, which drew together all the Peers of the realm, and which attracted as large a number of the Members of the House of Commons, and of their countrymen, as they admitted to witness their proceedings. The man who, thirty years ago, should have predicted such an event, would have been treated as a visionary. One inference which he drew from that debate was, that their Lordships would abdicate one of their highest privileges—eminent as their branch of the Legislature was for dignity, and for no slight weight with the community—if they were longer to neglect the establishment, on sound, liberal, moral, and religious grounds, of a system of education for the people. It naturally struck himself, too, that if he were to bring in his bill Session after Session, though he might be convinced of the soundness of the principles on which it was based, and of the adaptation of the provisions to attain the object which he had in view, he still was convinced that he was keeping possession, and exclusive possession, of the subject; that he was preventing others from taking it up who would come to the work with greater power, with forces of a different kind to back them, and with more weight in the community and Parliament than he could pretend to. He, therefore, thought that, by withdrawing his bill, and providing such a substitute as he had referred to, he should do this great subject the best service in his power. "Therefore it is," said the noble and learned Lord, "that I have come to the resolution, not of
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abandoning this question,—Heaven forbid ! while I exist that is impossible,—so woven is it with my heart, so entwined with my very nature, that I could not, any more than I durst if I could, forsake it; but I abandon it in a qualified sense of the term. I withdraw from it to leave others more powerful to take it up. I give it over to my noble Friend at the head of the Government. Let him apply his vigorous and manly understanding to the subject. Let him, with all the resources at his command, as head of the executive Government—let him, with all the assistance of the supporters of the Government in this House, take it up, according either to those principles which have formed the ground-work of my bill, if it so pleases him, or according to any other or better principles, if he prefers them on reflection, and no man will be more ready to give up any share in promoting this great proceeding than I shall. Let him prepare a bill founded on right principles, and propounded in an enlightened and liberal spirit, it is needless to say with what cordial affection I shall greet his entering on such a course, and how my ancient attachment to him, which has never been altered [here the noble and learned Lord became considerably affected], will revive in my bosom, and will make me hail with joy his taking that part which his duty prescribes to him, but which his interest as a Minister ought to induce him to take, as the certain means, if not of carrying this great measure, of encircling his Government with a glory which will never fade." The noble and learned lord then proceeded to say, that he had stated one inference which he drew from the memorable debate of that Session. There was another, not so entirely satisfactory, and it was this, that in England (he spoke not of Scotland and Ireland), however anxious they might be to see a change, the necessity and importance of which was admitted by all, and however urgently they might all press forward to effect it, an universal national system of education was utterly unattainable, if the Church of England was excluded from its superintendence. He went further, and said, that such a plan could not be adopted unless a preference was shown in some material respects to that Church by law established, and the whole frame of our civil and ecclesiastical polity (whether rightly or wrongly he cared not) being founded on

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such an assumption. This opinion was not suggested for the first time by the debate some time back. He had laid it down in the committee of 1819. He embodied it in the bill of 1820. And no sooner had he given the power to the parish minister to put his veto upon the schoolmaster if he chose, than his worthy and esteemed friends, the dissenters, took the alarm. Twas in vain that he reminded them, that he left the door of the school which he proposed to establish, not only ajar, but thrown right back on its hinges for the admission of their children. They met, they combined, they reasoned. They felt more than they reasoned, and they were more led by their passions than either by their feelings or their reason. Behind his back they candidly avowed their opinion; they amicably stated their reasons, they strenuously propounded their principles, they constantly urged their claims. Time after time he met them in consultation, in debate, in public and in private, and during the whole time that these discussions were carried on, he made but one convert. But that convert was worthy not only of exultation on his part, but of all the love, the reverence, the veneration, which encircled him in the eyes of his pupils, of his flock, of his friends, and of all his countrymen who knew him. He spoke of the late reverend, and he would add, revered (not merely as an empty title, but as a word conveying some idea of his character) Dr. Lindsey, as steady a friend of the dissenters, as great an alien to all love for Church establishments, and as great an enemy, above all, to the errors of popery, as ever came out of the country of the same league and covenant. His venerable friend thus addressed his brethren on this subject:—
"My friends, I hate episcopacy, I detest and abhor popery; but rather than that the children of the people of this country should be lost here, and perilled hereafter, by remaining in ignorance, I would have them taught, if they should be taught, by the Pope of Rome himself."
These were among the last words he spoke on this earth: he died the next day—suddenly died—and he left to his friends this strong memorial of his good sense, of his liberality, of his universal philanthropy, and above all, of that quality which peculiarly belonged to him—which he had not seen to belong in so great a degree to almost any other person, and which ap-
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peared to be wanting altogether in some men—namely, when he saw he was in the right pursuit of an object, not allowing unworthy prejudices, unsound and unchristian prepossessions, to stand in his way as to the mode and manner in which it should be effected. Such enlightened views were not general. The friends of this cause were constantly met by a humiliating and mortifying obstacle; they heard it constantly said, "the Church is very anxious for education, and she has done much to promote it. The dissenters are very anxious for education, and they have done much to promote it." To the latter a debt of gratitude was mainly due; but the Church had followed the course of the Dissenters, and forwarded that great cause. But, one and the other, great friends as they were of education—deeply as they respected it—dearly us they loved it, from human frailty—from the constitution of our imperfect nature, even when in pursuit of the best objects, even when warmed by the purest and holiest feelings—praised still more highly, loved still more dearly, one other thing—and that was, victory. The Church wished for education; but they wished to keep down the sects a little more. The Dissenters wished for education; but they wished to pull down the Church a little more. Now between these two feelings, springing from the same base origin; distinguished by the same ugly ill-favoured complexion, but pointing to the same Babel work of mischief and confusion, the interests of the people and of education were sure to fall prostrate, and hopelessly prostrate, unless their Lordships interposed and formed a plan on wise, universal, liberal, and Catholic principles. Whatever unpopularity attended such a plan, he was willing to take his share of it. He hoped his noble Friend would come forward and manfully do his duty in this matter; for it was him of all others he wished to see take the glory of such an enterprise, and he (Lord Brougham) would always be ready to share as an humble and distant follower, the labours and trials of this undertaking.
Motion agreed so.