Lords Sitting of 20 August 1839

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a first time:—Administration of Justice (Parts of Counties); Exchequer Bills; Consolidated Fund.—Read a second time:—Corporate Property (Ireland).—Read a third time:—Poor-Rates Collection.
Petitions presented. By the Duke of Richmond, from the Medical Society of Ireland, for Medical Reform. [A Conference was held with the Commons on the subject of Assaults (Ireland) Bill, when the Commons stated their reasons for disagreeing to the Lords' Amendments on the Bill.]

SUPPLY OF WATER TO THE METROPOLIS.
The Marquess of Westminsterwished to draw the attention of their Lordships to a subject of very considerable importance—namely, the supply of the metropolis with pure and wholesome water. It would form a proper subject of inquiry, whether a supply of water in a pure state could not be procured from the river. At present the water which was drawn from that source was far from being pure. If that could not be effected, then other means ought to be resorted to, in order to secure a proper supply of that important necessary. For a considerable length of time a committee of the other House of Parliament had been sitting on this subject, and it was hoped that that committee would have made such a report as would have led to beneficial results. That, however, was not the case. He had taken considerable pains in investigating this subject, and when a bill was introduced connected with it, he had given it his best consideration. Unfortunately, however, the measures which had hitherto been adopted had not produced the desired effect. It would, therefore, be right that their Lordships' attention should be called to this important matter early in the next Session. Another point to which he was anxious to direct the attention of their Lordships was the frequent occurrence of accidents on railways. A very serious accident of this nature had recently occurred near Coventry. Steps should, he thought, be taken to prevent, as far as it was possible, the recurrence of such accidents in future. To attain this object, it would be advisable that the walls on embankments should be built of such height and thickness, and be so inclined, as to present an effectual barrier against carriages being precipitated over them. Another point to which he wished to direct their Lordships' attention, was one that had already been noticed by a right rev.
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Prelate. He alluded to the state of the sewers in the city of London. The drainage in some parts was so defective, that it generated disease, and was calculated to deteriorate the health of the inhabitants. He should, therefore, give notice, that in the next Session of Parliament, he should move for a committee to inquire into the supply of water to the metropolis, for the purpose of devising means for securing a purer and more wholesome supply of that article; also to inquire into the causes of accidents on railways, for the purpose of proposing means for the more effectual security of passengers.

AFFAIRS OF THE EAST.
Lord Broughambegged to call the attention of his noble Friend at the head of the Government to the question, or rather questions, which were now pending in the East between the Sultan and Mehemet Ali. If the reported results of their hostilities were true, he could not help thinking that there had not been that cordial and vigorous attempt, which their Lordships were told would have been made to keep peace between them. The peace had been broken by the Porte, and not by Mehemet Ali; and how the Porte could have been advised to risk itself with Mehemet Ali in a manner so badly prepared for the fray, was perfectly incomprehensible. He wished to know, therefore, not only as to the truth of the reports, but also whether it were true, as he had learned, that a noble Friend of his at the Porte had taken less vigorous measures than ought to have been taken in attempts to prevent hostilities? It was an unaccountable notion, that the armies of the two powers had been in the reverse position of what was the fact. They had been told that the Turkish troops were in an excellent state of discipline, and that there was almost an absolute certainty of their defeating those of Mehemet Ali. He, therefore, begged to ask, whether it were true or not, that the Government had received accounts from our negotiators to the effect that everything would turn out to the advantage of the Turks, and to the discomfiture of the Egyptian army?—whether the accounts of the Turkish fleet having joined Mehemet Ali, and of the defeat of the Turks by the Egyptians, were correct?—whether, from the accounts received, his noble Friend were still of opinion, that every means had been used be" fore the breaking out of those hostilities to

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prevent them?—whether endeavours were now being made to prevent—as men would who really wished to prevent—the continuance of those hostilities?—what hopes were entertained of upholding the power of the Sultan?—and, finally, whether the information received as to the relative state of the armies had been such as to make the sudden beginning and termination to the campaign which had taken place, a matter of disappointment to the Government?
Viscount Melbournesaid, it was impossible for him to deny that his expectations upon the subject had not been realized. As to the circumstances which had occasioned, or which of the parties had taken those measures which had led to hostilities, it was not for him to say; and, indeed, it appeared to him useless and unnecessary to inquire. The defeat alluded to by his noble and learned Friend, had undoubtedly taken place; but from accounts which the Government had received, the victory was not so complete as had been represented. It was also true, that the Turkish fleet had fled from Constantinople, and placed itself in the hands of the Pasha of Egypt. His noble and learned Friend had asked, what hopes were entertained of supporting and maintaining the power of the Sultan? His answer was, that the hopes they entertained of maintaining the power of the Sultan, and preserving the integrity of the Ottoman empire, which they considered a very great and valuable object, were mainly founded upon the complete co-operation and agreement of the five great Powers, and the determination of those Powers to act together, cordially and energetically, for that purpose. With respect to the conduct which had been pursued by those who represented her Majesty in that part of the globe, he begged leave to say, that there was no foundation whatever for any of those notions which had reached the ears of his noble and learned Friend. He begged also to state, that there had been on their part every, and the most sincere, exertion to prevent hostilities taking place; and that the Government had not received from them any representation as to the certainty or probability of a different result from that which had taken place.
The Duke of Wellingtonobserved, that he was not surprised at the questions of his noble and learned Friend, for he himself had read one report of the engage-
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ment—the most beautiful report he had ever in the course of his life read of any engagement—the only fault to be found with which was, that there was not a single word of it true.
Subject dropped.

MANCHESTER POLICE.
Upon the question that the House go into committee upon the Manchester Police Bill,
Lord Broughamsaid, that the opinion which he had given on the preceding evening with respect to the operation of the Municipal Corporation Act in repealing the local police Acts affecting Manchester was not at all weakened by the reflection which he had since bestowed upon the question. Nevertheless, as his noble and learned Friend upon the Woolsack had arrived at a different conclusion, and as several learned Friends whom he had consulted, and who agreed with him in opinion, thought that the point was by no means free from doubt, as was indeed manifest from the disagreement of the views taken by his noble and learned Friend and himself, he withdrew all the opposition to the bill which he had founded upon his construction of the Municipal Corporation Act. He still entertained, with respect to this bill, the same objections as he had urged against the Birmingham Police Bill, but he should not trouble the House to divide upon the question.
Viscount Duncannonsaid, with reference to the objections made by the noble Duke opposite (the Duke of Wellington) on the preceding evening to this bill, the noble Duke could not have adverted to the circumstance, that a very considerable portion of Manchester, in which property of great value was situated, was not under the jurisdiction of the present commissioners of police. He had reason also to believe, that the noble Duke was mistaken as to the amount which could be raised under the powers of the present bill. It was true that this bill limited the powers of the commissioners to the levying of a rate of 8d. in the pound; but he was informed that that would produce a sum equal to 23,000 l. a year. By the accounts which he had received, the assessment for the township of Manchester was stated to be 526,269 l.; and for all the other townships 175,423 l.; making the total assessment 701,692 l.; and a rate of 8d. in the pound on that assessment would produce

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23,389 l. The account which he had received of the total expenditure for the purposes of police at present was 19,659 l.; so that their Lordships would see that the present bill would afford largely increased means for the establishment of an efficient police. He was aware that in the township of Manchester there was the rate of 1s. 6d. in the pound mentioned by the noble Duke; but that rate was levied for lighting, paving, and other purposes, and the commissioners could only apply 8d. in the pound out of it to the purposes of watching. He thought that under these circumstances the objection of the noble Duke must be removed, that objection being, that they were about to give up the existing and more efficient police to supply its place by one which must be less efficient.
The Duke of Wellingtonsaid—My Lords, what I thought was, that it was desirable to preserve the existence in Manchester of a police force, which has been found up to the present time, under all circumstances, effectual in preserving the peace of that town; and I thought that I had proved very sufficiently that when the rates levied, and the resources of the police existing at present were compared with the resources created by the bill now under your Lordships' discussion, that those now existing are superior to those about to be established by the bill. I then reminded your Lordships, that under the Act of the 10th of George IV., which provides for the regulation of the police of Manchester, and the levying of rates in Manchester for the purposes of police during the period of the continuance of this Act, that under that Act as soon as this bill comes into operation and the police to be created under this bill is notified as being in action, from that moment forward all other descriptions of police established in Manchester, either the corporation police, to which the noble Viscount had just adverted, or any other police, are from that moment at an end. Now, my Lords, in the statement which I made to your Lordships, I limited the amount of money which I said could be collected from the rate to be levied under the bill now proposed. I limited that amount to 13,000 l. The noble Viscount, however, calculates that a rate levied at 8rf. in the pound will produce 23,000 l.; and I shall be extremely happy to find that the noble Viscount is correct in that esti-
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mate; but I still doubt whether this bill affords the means of raising so large a police as that which at present exists in Manchester. The commissioners of police under the local Acts are authorized to raise a rate of 1s. 6d. in the pound, which for all the purposes of the Act produces 34,000 l. per annum; but of that sum the commissioners are only allowed to apply 14,000 l. for the purposes of a day and night police; and that is more than would be applied under this bill; but, besides that, they have a sum of 4,000 l. from the rates, making a total of 18,000 l.; and, in addition to that, they have the power of raising a still further sum if they should think fit. Now, as soon as this bill has passed, all that will be at an end. However, considering the opinion which has been delivered on the subject of the operation of the Corporation Bill on this question; considering the opinion which has been delivered by the noble and learned Lord on the woolsack, who was so kind as to say that he would further consider this question during the interval between the discussion of yesterday and that which was to take place to-night; and considering, likewise, what has fallen from the noble and learned Lord opposite, feeling, also, a great disinclination to oppose myself—and to invite this House to oppose itself, to this bill under these circumstances, and to incur any risk in respect to the establishment of any police for Manchester, I am disposed, if it really is the opinion of the noble and learned Lord that such risk will be incurred in consequence of the present state of the law, I am disposed not to press those objections which I make to this bill, because, as I have already stated, I really wish to see the best possible means framed for giving the security of a police to this large and important town. Under these circumstances, my Lords, I shall withdraw my opposition to the bill.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, that since his attention had been called to this question, last night, he had again looked into the Corporations Act, and the consideration which he had been able to give to the subject had confirmed him in the opinion which he yesterday expressed; but unwilling that it should rest upon his single opinion, he had taken the opinions of the Attorney and Solicitor-general, and they entirely concurred with him.
The Bill went through the Committee.

BOLTON POLICE.
Upon the motion of Viscount Duncannon, for going into Committee on the Bolton Police Bill,
Lord Lyndhurstsaid, that he must beg their Lordships' attention to this bill. The circumstances connected with it were widely different from those connected with the Manchester Bill, and in order to point out the marked distinction between the two cases, he would state to their Lordships what the actual position of Bolton was with respect to police. Upon examining the circumstances, their Lordships would find, that the police in that town was of a different description; there were in the first place, two boroughreeves, two high constables, and a police consisting of seven persons, with powers to increase their numbers to any extent in case of any emergency; and further, in addition to them, a considerable number of perpetual constables, making altogether a force of about 60 persons. That part of the police of Bolton was entirely independent of the question regarding the validity of the charter. Its authority would not be affected if the charter were bad; and in that respect the case of Bolton differed from that of Manchester. At this moment, therefore, there was a police consisting of upwards of sixty persons, which might be increased on any emergency, and entirely independent of the Charter. In addition to that there was a police force raised under local acts for Great Bolton and Little Bolton; and that part of the case he admitted was similar to that of Manchester; but still further, in addition to that force, there was at present a force actively in operation of 1,000 special constables, who were raised under a bill brought in by the noble Viscount opposite, and sometimes known as Lord Melbourne's Bill. Now, that being the actual state of the police of Bolton, it became material to consider what was the alteration proposed to be made by the present bill; and the effect of that alteration was to extinguish the whole existing police of the town; for there was a distinct clause in the bill stating expressly that as soon as the police under this bill came into operation, the authority of all other descriptions of police was to cease and determine. The question, therefore, was between the existing police and that which was proposed to be established by this bill. It, therefore, became material to consider what was the amount of provision made by this bill for
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the establishment of that police. It had been stated in the former discussion that no more than eightpence in the pound on the assessment was to be levied. Now, he had made inquiry into that matter, and he spoke upon the best authority, for he had obtained his information from the official persons acting in Bolton, and they told him, that the whole sum which could be raised by the eightpenny rate, was 3,200 l. a-year: and, taking into consideration the salaries of the commissioner, inspector, superintendant, the collector, and the rent which it would be necessary to pay for the three police offices, there would only be left a sum of l,560 l., for the purpose of maintaining the police of the town. The result was, that they could not raise a force consisting of more than thirty men, and it was proposed by the present bill that those thirty men should be substituted for the police force at present existing in Bolton, though that part only of the police which was under the boroughreeves, and independent of the corporation, amounted to a force of sixty men. But there was another objection to this bill: Bolton consisted of two townships—the township of Great Bolton, and a part of the township of Little Bolton. Now, it was provided by this Bill, that the commissioner should apply to the overseers of the poor, and that they should pay over as much as eight pence in the pound, from the rates which they levied, and that might easily be effected in Great Bolton, but only a part of Little Bolton was included within the borough; and he should like any noble Lord in that House, who looked at the clauses in the 10th George 4th, to say, how, under that clause the overseers of the poor, could pay or contribute any part of the rate raised for Little Bolton for the maintenance of the police of the town. He ventured to say, that it would be impossible to raise any part of that rate; and then the maximum of funds at the disposal of the commissioners would be reduced still lower, therefore, with a view to the actual state of Bolton, he must say, that, this bill and the whole proceeding was exceedingly ill-considered and unwise. He knew, however, that several persons had been very much struck by the late proceedings in Bolton, and had, in consequence, said, that some alteration was necessary for the purpose of insuring the peace and tranquillity of the town. He admitted, that

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some alteration was necessary: but surely that alteration ought not to be so considerable a diminution of the police force. He begged to call their Lordships' attention to the history of those proceedings at Bolton, and it might be done in a few words. The mayor of the town had called out a force, which consisted of many persons who had been active Chartists, and consequently the people engaged in the riots had not supposed that the mayor and the police were really anxious to put down the disturbance; and they had been confirmed in that impression by the fact, that when troops had been called into the town, and were prepared to act, the mayor forbade them from acting. Now this mayor of Bolton was one of several persons who had signed a requisition calling on the boroughreeves to call a public meeting for the purpose of considering the propriety of proceeding in procession to join a body of Chartists, who were to assemble at Kendal Green, in the neighbourhood of Manchester. The boroughreeves refused to call that meeting, and this gentleman then agreed with others to meet in the theatre, and, accordingly, about 1,500 persons did assemble in the theatre, and pass several resolutions of an inflammatory nature, and one of them was seconded by this gentleman, who now filled the situation of mayor of Bolton. He would read to their Lordships one of those resolutions. It was to this effect:
"That this meeting cordially approves of the People's Charter, framed by the General Convention of the Working Men's Association, embodying as it does, the principles of Universal Suffrage, Annual Parliaments, Vote by Ballot, a no-property qualification, and the payment of representatives."
That resolution was carried by acclamation; and the result of the meeting was, that they proceeded in procession to join the Chartists at Kendal Green. Would their Lordships believe, that this gentleman, having, having been elected mayor of Bolton, had also been selected by her Majesty's Government for the important situation of a justice of the peace for the town of Bolton? He had been selected for that situation and appointed after those proceedings had taken place. Could their Lordships be surprised that, when a person who had acted that part went out with a police force consisting of many persons of the same description, the people should suppose that
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they were not in reality anxious to put down the rioting; but that encouragement and protection would be afforded them? He understood that the constables had been driven to the Town-hall, which was attacked by the mob; that information was given to the mayor, who, with another magistrate, was at that time sitting at the police-office; and that though he was told that the people would pull down the Town-hall, he treated the information with the greatest possible indifference, and made use of some such observation as that "they might do as they liked." Under these circumstances, and in that state, the town remained for three days, when at length some respectable inhabitants of the town applied to a county magistrate, Mr. Fletcher, and requested him to interfere. That gentleman came to the town, and, with the assistance of the boroughreeves and the constables acting under them, in less than an hour he restored tranquillity to the town, which was never after disturbed. Was it extraordinary then, under such circumstances, that one of the persons who had been apprehended for taking part in the riots, who had attended the meeting, and had addressed the meeting after the mayor, when he was apprehended and brought up before the bench of magistrates on which the mayor was sitting, was it extraordinary that he should have addressed them thus:—
"I well remember when the gentlemen who are now my judges came forward and stated that they were prepared to redeem their pledge to assist us in gaining universal suffrage. Then, I ask you, with what face you can commit us to prison after the bait which you yourselves held out to us? and I tell you this, that though you may imprison, you cannot put down the rising spirit of the people—the agitation has originated with yourselves."
That was the history of the agitation and turbulence which had appeared in Bolton, and which the efforts of a county magistrate, assisted by the police under the boroughreeves, had alone succeeded in quelling; and it was now proposed by this bill to put an end at once to that force, for the purpose of substituting in its place an inferior force. He could not conclude his observations on this subject without saying that the Ministers had placed themselves under the gravest responsibility for these occurrences by the appointment of such a person as the mayor of Bolton to the important office of

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a justice of the peace. They themselves became liable to the charge of holding out encouragement and protection to the parties engaged in these disturbances. He left these matters to the consideration of the noble Viscount.
Viscount Melbournesaid, that he did not think that the latter part of the noble and learned Lord's speech relating to the disturbances at Bolton, and to the conduct of the magistrates and the police there, was very favourable to the view which he had taken with regard to this bill. The question was, whether the police as it existed at present was sufficient for preserving the peace of the town. The noble and learned Lord said, that the present force was larger: that, in point of numbers, it consisted of sixty men, whereas the police proposed to be established would only amount to thirty; but the efficiency of a force did not depend on its numbers, and as to that he appealed to the noble Duke. It depended entirely on its composition. Thirty resolute, independent men, determined to do their duty, were worth one hundred or two hundred who were not decided, not determined—whose hearts were not with you, who were not prepared to do their duty. The statement, on which the bill was grounded, was, that the present police wass entirely insufficient, and that it was absolutely necessary to provide a police for Bolton. Now, as to the latter part of the speech of the noble and learned Lord, in which he had referred to the state of the town and the conduct of the mayor, and the sort of persons whom he had sworn in as special constables, and the measures which he had taken, and the encouragement which he had afforded to the rioters, all this was an argument for the bill; it was a decided reason for passing the bill—which would establish in the town an independent police under an independent officer. In other respects the case was the same as that of Manchester. A charter had been granted, the charter was disputed, the rates could not be raised, and an efficient police force could not consequently be maintained; and they only sought to apply the same remedy in the case of Bolton which they had applied to Manchester.
Lord Lyndkurstsaid, that the noble Viscount had misrepresented what he had stated. He had said, that as long as the mayor was the party who attempted to establish peace in the town, his efforts
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were wholly ineffectual. But the moment the county magistrate put himself at the head of the existing police force, he was completely successful in restoring peace in the town. The whole of the observations of the noble Viscount were, therefore, irrelevant.
Viscount Melbourneremarked, that if the mayor was not an individual to be trusted, surely this was a reason for appointing another officer to have the management of an independent force.
The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, that he had passed many years in transactions of this description, and was one of those who looked much to his experience of what had passed before. When, therefore, he saw that this police force at Bolton had conducted themselves most admirably—that they had exerted themselves in the roost effective manner for the preservation of the peace at a most critical moment, and that very lately, at a period when the disturbers of the public peace at Bolton might have said to this individual, whom the Secretary of State had recommended to the situation of justice of the peace—to this mayor, appointed a justice of the peace by her Majesty's Secretary of State, the riotous Chartists of Bolton might have addressed themselves in the language used by the regicide at Paris to his judges—"Sur le meme poignard que vous, j'ai juré la mort aux tyrans." While such a man, said the noble Duke, is appointed to administer justice in Bolton, it is not for us to consider whether 30 men, or 200 men, constituting a police force, are to be intrusted to his guidance. My Lords, we must put an end to this system of employing men as magistrates for the maintenance of the peace, who have been concerned in its violation. When we shall have taken this necessary step, we may then trust to the old constituted forms which exist n this country, and call on the people themselves to preserve the public peace, without having policemen under our noses to whatever quarter we turn. Every noble Lord who had considered this subject attentively, would see that the peace of Bolton would be preserved more effectually under the existing system than under that which was proposed by the bill. He would humbly recommend to his noble Friend opposite to postpone the consideration of this subject to a future day, in order that noble Lords might have an opportunity of applying their attention to the

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principle which it involved. As long as such magistrates were appointed, and as long as these things were permitted to go on through the country with impunity, and men suffered to evade their duty, to take upon themselves offices which they would not faithfully fulfil, and encourage disturbances which it was their duty to put down, no matter what number of police they might choose to appoint, the peace could not be preserved.
The Duke of Richmondwas not disposed to thwart the Government when it proposed such a bill as a measure of precaution, but like the noble Duke, he deprecated such appointments as those referred to, and expressed a hope, that Government would institute a satisfactory inquiry, and dismiss the individuals, if the charges were proved against them. Such an inquiry was due not only to Bolton, but to the whole country.
Viscount Melbournesaid, that the noble and learned Lord had not alleged that the mayor of Bolton had not discharged his duty properly; but that, from his previous character, the public could not believe that he was in earnest when he exerted himself for the suppression of violence. He also stated that the mayor had sworn in Chartist special constables; but the question was, whether these men had not faithfully discharged their duty? The question was not, what these parties had done before, or what were their opinions, but whether they had discharged their duty faithfully as special constables.
Lord Lyndhurstthought it a pretty strong case, that the borough of Bolton was in a disturbed state for three days, under the control of the mayor; and that peace was immediately restored upon the intervention of the county magistrate.
Viscount Melbourneobserved, that this was only an ex parte statement. He looked upon it as mere assertion.
Lord Lyndhurstsaid, that he was most desirous to see the suggestion of the noble Duke (Richmond) adopted, and the whole matter put in a proper train of inquiry. He would not take upon himself the responsibility of this measure—its responsibility must rest on her Majesty's Ministers. He would only repeat the point to which he had already called the attention of the noble Viscount opposite—viz., as to the power to levy a rate under this bill, except only in Great Bolton. If the noble Viscount would advert to the Act of the 10th
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of George 4th, he would find it impossible to levy the rate in Little Bolton, which formed more than one half of the borough.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, if the rate could not be levied, it would be because some local Act intervened, and, therefore, the case of Bolton was the same as that of Manchester. There was, however, this difference, that at Bolton constables had not actually been appointed; but by the 76th section of the Municipal Act, the watch committee was bound within three weeks to appoint constables, and by the 86th section, as soon as they were appointed all the provisions of the local Act would cease.
Lord Lyndhurstobserved, that there was no local Act in Bolton. The constables were appointed at common law at a court leet, and they, when so appointed, were bound to do duty under the authority of the boroughreeve. He admitted, that if there were local Acts applicable to Great and Little Bolton, the case would be similar to that of Manchester.
The Lord Chancellor: Then there is no fund for paying them. Would you leave the town to the unpaid services of such constables?
Lord Lyndhurst: They have formed an efficient police in all times hitherto, and why they should not be continued I cannot understand.
Viscount Duncannonsaid, that with regard to the question put to him by the noble and learned Lord (Lyndhurst), as to whether Little Bolton was not included in this bill, he (Viscount Duncannon) was not quite sure whether the observations of the noble and learned Lord might not be correct. He hoped, however, to be allowed to take the bill through this stage, and to consider the point before the next proceeding with it.
Lord Lyndhurstsaid, that if the rate could only be levied in Great Bolton, a fund of not more than 3,000 l, per annum would be raised, and this would be wholly insufficient. He was surprised that those who framed the bill had not looked to this; however, it was not for him to amend it.
Viscount Duncannon,under the circumstances, would postpone the bill.
Committee postponed.

COUNTY AND DISTRICTS CONSTABLES.
Viscount Duncannon Viscount Duncannon moved the committal of the County and Districts Constables Bill.
Earl Stanhopesaid, that this bill was of great importance to all clauses in the community, and especially deserved the serious attention of the House, particularly in the present times. The first clause of the bill empowered magistrates, if it should appear to them, that the ordinary officers were not sufficient for the preservation of the peace in case of tumult, to appoint one additional constable for every 1,000 persons. This was a ludicrous, absurd, and nugatory proposition; but nugatory and useless as this bill was for any practical purposes, he should object to it less, if the measure was pf a constitutional character. It would be found, that this bill gave the rule and control over these constables to the Government, or, in other words, to the Secretary of State, who was to have power, from time to time, to amend the rules and regulations, and to add to the force. Those rules and regulations were to be binding upon all persons concerned. Chief constables were to be appointed, subject only to the approbation of the Secretary of State. The chief constable was to have the appointment of all the other constables under his orders, without any such recommendation as was contained in the Act of the second year of his late Majesty, whereby it was required, that the constables should be persons who resided in the "the township, or in the neighbourhood thereof;" so that there was nothing in this bill to prevent the chief constables employing persons even from Ireland for this purpose. Although the force was to be paid out of the county rates, it was not to be under the control or direction of the magistracy, or even of the Lord-lieutenant, but under that of the chief constable, who was made a Government officer, and as such, the 8th section took from him the right to vote on the election of Members of Parliament. By the 19th clause it was provided, that all the powers and duties of the actually existing constables should cease and determine. And it would on the whole be found, that this measure was a stepping-stone to an organized centralized police force throughout the whole of the [country. He would impute motives and intentions to no man—those who framed the bill best knew the objects for which it was designed—but this much he would say, that if the real object of the framers was to establish throughout the country organized spies, the bill was well calculated to obtain the end. Spies there
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would be of a most convenient character, because they would be paid by the several counties, and would not require any additional vote of money from the country. The bill, in itself most obnoxious, had been brought in at a period of the Session when it could not meet with due consideration. He was aware of the dangers which impended over this country, and which threatened the destruction of all her institutions. To these dangers, and the causes from which they arose, he had already, on a former occasion, called their Lordships' attention; and, if the Legislature would restore that which was his most anxious wish and prayer—namely, the peace, prosperity, and security of this country, it must act on the advice given by one of the greatest men this nation ever saw—Lord Bacon—whose maxims he had lately quoted, and in which he said truly, "that in order to allay sedition, you must expel the matter of sedition." Let grievances continue, and pass what police bills they might think fit, for Manchester, Birmingham, or Bolton; let them appoint constables, not 1 to 1,000, but 1 to 10, and still, if they persevered in the present system, they would only spread those principles which he deprecated—the principles of Chartism—and then it required no prophet to foretell, that, with distress added to dissatisfaction, those principles would be destructive of all the institutions of the country, and even of the monarchy itself. On these grounds he should oppose the motion for going into a committee on the bill.
Viscount Melbourneadmitted, that this bill was one of very great importance, and admitted, also, that it had been brought forward at a very late period of the Session; but he trusted that, considering its object, their Lordships would think themselves justified in taking it into consideration, with a view to passing it into a law. It was for their Lordships to say, whether it would be prudent or safe to permit the country to remain without some measure for the maintenance of the public peace. The object of the bill was to enable justices in every county to take measures for the establishment of a more efficient body of constables than at present exists. The justices, when convinced that the present constables were not sufficient to preserve the public tranquillity, were empowered by this bill, to represent to the Secretary of State, what number of constables would

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be necessary for that purpose, according to the particular circumstances of the county or district, and upon that the Secretary of State was authorized to appoint that number of constables, to frame rules and regulations, and the justices, with the approval of the Secretary of State, appointed the chief constable. It had been stated in former Sessions, and it was now pretty clear to their Lordships—nay, it was manifest, from the state of the whole country, that the present force of constables was insufficient even to carry into effect the ordinary law in ordinary times, and still less to maintain the peace in times of trouble and excitement, and therefore some measure, like the present, was required to invigorate that force, and to make it efficient for the great purposes for which it was intended. It was on these grounds that the bill had been brought in, and, notwithstanding the late period of the Session which had arrived, he could not help earnestly pressing their Lordships to take it into consideration, with a view to frame it in such a shape, as they might think necessary to fit it to pass into a law.
Motion agreed to (Earl Stanhope dissentient).
The bill went through Committee, and, with amendments, was ordered to be reported.
The following Protest was entered against the Bill.
DISSENTIENT—
"Because the public peace ought to be preserved upon established and constitutional principles, and would derive no additional security from the proposed measure, which appears to be unconstitutional in its nature, and which might, in its operation, produce much vexatious and improper interference with the conduct of individuals, and, thereby, much oppression and injustice.
STANHOPE."

BASTARDY.
House in Committee on the Bastardy Bill.
On clause 1,
The Duke of Richmondsaid, he very much doubted the expediency of passing such a bill as this at all, when he knew that the Poor-law Amendment Act was to be taken into consideration next year. He thought some of its clauses would operate in a very mischievous and oppressive manner. Under the law, as it now stood, very few orders of affiliation were made, except against persona baring money, be-
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cause overseers and guardians of the poor did not think it worth while to proceed against labourers receiving not more than 12 s. or 14 s. per week. But, by this bill, orders of affiliation were to be enforced against every man liable to such a process since the passing of the Act, for the expenses of the maintenance of his illegitimate child. Now, if they wanted to alter the law, let them not give power to magistrates to order a labourer to pay for the maintenance of his illegitimate child, born, perhaps, six months before, because that would drive them back to one of the old evils which the new law had been introduced to remove—forced marriages. If a poor labouring man were called upon to pay 2s. or 2s. 6d. a-week for some months of arrears, it was clear that, rather than go to gaol, he would marry, and thus all the evils of forced marriages would return, the want of contentment at home, the inducement to go to the beer-shop, and the neglect and misery of both wife and children. Then, as to giving up all the powers, now vested in quarter sessions to petty sessions in these cases, he would observe that some plan must be settled by which to compel the attendance of witnesses, for at present there was no clause of that kind in the bill. The noble Duke proposed amendments to the effect stated in his observations, which were agreed to.
Clauses were agreed to.
House resumed.
Report to be received.