Lords Sitting of 11 May 1838

MINUTES.
Bill.—Read a first time:—Regency Act Repeal.
Petitions presented. By Lord POLTIMORE, several, by the Duke of RICHMOND, several, and by Lord LYNDHURST, several, from places in Northumberland, Cumberland, and Lancashire, for the immediate abolition of Negro Apprenticeship.—By the Earl of BANDON, from the county of Cork, for a settlement of the Tithe question.—By Viscount LORTON, from the Grand Jury of the county of Antrim, and by the Marquess of CLANRICARDE, from Dublin, against the Irish Poor-Relief Bill.

BRITISH AUXILIARY LEGION.
The Earl of Aberdeen, in rising to bring forward the motion of which he had given notice, said, it was not without some surprise, that he first read the letter to which he now requested the attention of the noble Viscount and of the House. He confessed, he did not fully comprehend, and he was not sure that he yet fully comprehended, the entire scope and extent of this communication; but the letter to which he referred, and which was addressed to Colonel Shaw, of the Auxiliary Legion, and signed by Mr. Backhouse, the Under-Secretary of State for the Foreign Department, was as follows:—

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"Foreign-office, May 4.
"Sir,—I am directed by Viscount Palmerston to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 30th ult., requesting, as Chairman of a Committee of Officers of the late British Auxiliary Legion, and for the reason stated in your letter, that his Lordship will move her Majesty's Government to take upon themselves the payment of the claims of the Legion against the Spanish Government; and I am to acquaint you that Lord Palmerston has transmitted your representation for the consideration of the Lords Commissioners of her Majesty's Treasury. "J. BACKHOUSE."
He said, he was not sure that he understood the full extent of that communication. Some time ago he had the honour to hold the seals of the Foreign Office for nearly three years. During that period it was possible he might have made recommendations to the Treasury, which his noble Friend, the noble Duke near him, then the head of his Majesty's Government, might, from the regard he always paid to the economizing of the public revenue, have thought it his duty to refuse. But, for his own part, he should not have made a representation like that which he had just read to the House, unless he had conceived that his noble Friend would receive it as readily as he made it. It was possible that all this system had been changed since he had left office. It was said, that the Members of her Majesty's Government differed in opinion on several questions, and this might, perhaps, be one of the questions on which they differed. He should be happy if it were so. He was, however, bound, in the meantime, to conclude that the noble Viscount had assented to this recommendation before it was made. If such were the case, and if the noble Viscount were prepared to take on himself the payment of so large a sum as 260,000 l. or 270,000 l., he would venture to suggest, that it was a most serious affair. It would be establishing a precedent which—[Viscount Melbourne: I have no such intention.] All, then, that he had to say was, that if this annunciation were not made with the recommendation of her Majesty's Government, it was a step of an unparalleled and unprecedented nature, so far as it applied to those unfortunate individuals, for it had been intended to hold a public meeting to press their claims, and that public meeting had been suspended in consequence of this communication from the Foreign-office. It was clear that whatever was the inten-
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tion of the noble Viscount, his noble Friend, the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, had recommended their claims to the consideration of the Treasury. As he had brought this subject under their Lordships' notice, it might not be unfitting for him to make a few further observations on it, especially as it was connected with another matter of a similar description. He admitted, that it was the duty of Government to use all its endeavours to secure the payment of these claims from the Spanish Government, and that everything which depended on the good offices of the British Government with the Spanish Government, should be done in behalf of the officers and soldiers of the Legion, but nothing more. Beyond that, he did not consider that they had any claims more than other British adventurers who had entered into engagements with a Government so notoriously unfaithful as that of Spain. What induced him, after the answer he had received from the noble Viscount, still to press this question was this—there was another set of claims of British subjects which had been postponed for the sake of the claims of these officers and soldiers. Those claims had a stronger right to the noble Viscount's intercession with the Spanish Government, than any other claims whatsoever. He alluded to the claims under a treaty which, ten years ago, he had himself negotiated with Count Ofalia, then, as now, at the head of the Spanish Government, on behalf of certain British subjects. They had compounded their claims for a specific sum, two-thirds of which was to be payable at once, and a third in bonds, with interest thereon, payable in London. 300,000 l. was to be paid in bonds, and 600,000 l. in money. That treaty was embodied in an Act of Parliament, and was to be carried into effect under an Act of Parliament, and the honour of England required, that it should be duly executed. The payment of interest on those bonds had, for some time, entirely ceased, and the claimants under that treaty had claims on the good faith of the Spanish Government ten thousand times stronger than those of any private speculators. Having received from the noble Lord an answer that it was not his intention to act on the recommendations of his excellent friend, Mr. Backhouse, he would not press that question further. He must, however, press on the noble Lord the propriety of attending to his recommendation

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to interfere with all the energies of the British Government on behalf of those claimants under this treaty. He had intended to ask the noble Lord, whether the letter of Mr. Backhouse had met with his approbation; but after the intimation of the noble Lord, he deemed it unnecessary.
Viscount Melbournesaid, that although he had already answered the question which the noble Earl intended to put to him as to the intention of her Majesty's Government in regard to the claims of the legion against the Spanish Government, he must beg to observe, that, as it appeared to him, the whole of the error into which the noble Earl had fallen, and the whole difference which existed between him and the noble Earl on the subject, arose from the noble Earl having construed a promise to refer a certain matter to the Treasury, into a recommendation from his noble Friend the Secretary for Foreign Affairs to the Treasury on the subject. The letter which the noble Earl had read contained no word of recommendation; it simply submitted the matter to the consideration of the Lords of the Treasury. Undoubtedly, his noble Friend the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, when an application was made to him, not of justice but of compassion and favour, thought it fitting, it being a question of money, that the application should receive an answer from the financial department of the Government, and therefore it was, that he submitted this application to the Lords of the Treasury. So far from any difference of opinion existing between his noble Friend and any Members of her Majesty's Government on this subject, the opinion of his noble Friend and the Treasury had always been the same upon it. The persons who made this application, as they were well aware that the contracts which they had entered into they had made with the Spanish Government, so to the Spanish Government alone they had a right to look for payment of their demands; and although they had undoubtedly a right, which any persons having a claim against a foreign Government had, to claim the interposition and good offices of the British Government, with a view to the enforcement of those demands, they were in no respect entitled to look or call upon her Majesty's Government in the light of a guarantee between them and the Spanish Government, with whom, and with whom alone, they contracted, and to whom alone
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were they to look for payment of their demands. With respect to the other matter touched upon by the noble Earl, he quite agreed that the claimants under the convention of 1828 had a right to call upon the British Government to enforce against the Spanish Government if necessary, the fulfilment of their engagements. But all this was a matter of prudence and discretion, and we should look to the state and condition of the Government against whom we were to act, as well as to those whose interests we were to protect. Now, with respect to these particular claims, every exertion had been made by the Government of England to induce the Spanish Government to fulfil its engagements. He believed, that although there might be some of the bondholders who were suffering from want of means in consequence of non-payment, those who represented the interests of the great body of these claimants were themselves perfectly satisfied that every exertion had been made which the circumstances would admit of, to obtain for them what they were entitled to.
The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, it was quite impossible to view this question on any other than public grounds; and whan he saw the letter which the noble Earl had read to the House, it certainly struck him that a great imprudence had been committed; because, if these demands were to be taken into consideration with a view to their liquidation by her Majesty's Government, it would be opening the door to claims, of this kind quite beyond all possibility of satisfying. It was quite true, that the Secretary for the Foreign Department might, if he saw fit, make an application of this kind to the Treasury; but it was not because the letter had been written to the Treasury, but because it had been published by the Foreign-office, that he found fault. This made the matter a very serious affair, by tending to show that there existed a difference of opinion between the heads of two departments of her Majesty's Government upon a question so important as the present. The noble Viscount would recollect, perhaps, that last year he had warned him of the danger of having anything to do with any bargains of this description.
The Marquess of Londonderryinquired of the noble Viscount whether any answer had been sent by the Lords of the Treasury

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to the communication from the Foreign office on the subject of these claims.
Viscount Melbournesaid, he believed no answer had been sent to it, except an acknowledgement of its having been received. With respect to the publication of the letter, that had not been done, he believed, by the Foreign-office, but by those to whom it was addressed.
The Earl of Riponthought, that as these unfortunate individuals had no claim against the British Government it would have been but right on the part of her Majesty's Government to put them out of suspense with as little delay as possible. Yet the only answer which it appeared the communication from the Foreign office had received was an acknowledgement of its receipt; and it was only through the present discussion on the subject in this House that the unfortunate individuals who were interested in the result would hear that they had no chance nor claim whatever. He thought that the Secretary of State ought to have told them that they had no chance at once, in the first instance.
Conversation dropped.