HL Deb 13 March 1838 vol 41 cc802-22

The Order of the Day for the Second Reading having been read,

Lord Glenelg

rose to move the Second Reading of the Bill for the Amendment of the Act for the Abolition of Slavery. He was fully aware of the great importance of the subject which he was about to present to their Lordships, and he should be still more deeply impressed with this consideration, and he should feel himself called upon to trespass longer upon their Lordships' attention than he now thought necessary, if he did not recollect that this great question had lately been brought before the House in the most eloquent and forcible manner, and that, on the same occasion, he (Lord Glenelg) had taken the opportunity to state the grounds on which the Government intended to introduce a measure perceiving that it was the general impression of the House that the period had arrived when some Parliamentary enactment on the subject was necessary. In the year 1833 that memorable Act was passed which abolished slavery in our West-India Colonies. That Act, however, established an intermediate period between slavery and unrestricted freedom, which was intended to secure to both parties connected with the system certain rights and privileges. The intention of the Act was on the one hand to secure to the planter the amount of work from his labourer specified by law, and on the other to take care that the apprenticed labourer during that intermediate period should not be forced to give any labour beyond the amount prescribed by law. The Act further contemplated, as to the apprentice, that he should be secured as to his maintenance and subsistence; that he should be able at all times to purchase his freedom according to a just valuation; that he should be protected from gross oppression and cruelty; and in order to obtain these ends, the Act established a particular class of magistrates, for the express purpose of affording protection to the apprenticed labourers in our colonies, not allowing them to undergo any punishment except by the authority of such magistrates. The great question therefore was, whether the intention of the Act of 1833—whether the intention of this nation and the Imperial Parliament—had been fulfilled? During the first year after that great event the experiment was allowed to proceed without any interference on the part of Parliament. In the year 1836 a Committee of the House of Commons was appointed to inquire into the working of the system. That Committee made a very valuable report, and stated certain particulars in which improvements were necessary. In the year 1837 the same Committee was renewed, but it had made no report, and the evidence had not been printed. During these two years, how-ever, it might have been expected that some advancement would have been made by the Local Legislature towards fulfilling the recommendations of the Committee of 1836. Unfortunately that had not been the case, and Ministers were therefore, reduced to the necessity of inquiring whether it was not in the wisdom—it was cer- tainly in the competency—of Parliament to interpose, in order to supply such defects as time and experience had shown to result from the working of the system established in 1833—in order to supply such remedies as the Local Legislature might have supplied, and he would venture to say they ought to have supplied, but which, at the same time, it was no less the duty of this country, and the Parliament of this country, in compliance with the wish of the nation, to supply. The Committee of 1836, in investigating the subject, directed their peculiar attention to the island of Jamaica—our most important colony in that part of the world, both from the number of its inhabitants, and its position in the West Antilles; and, therefore, any observations which were applicable to Jamaica no doubt would apply with some slight variation to the rest. He should first call their Lordships' attention to the objects which that Committee pointed out in the working of the apprenticeship system. That Committee, inquiring into the whole of the subject, expressed its opinion to be, that there were certain material defects, for which it confidently looked for redress to the Legislature of Jamaica. It was not unimportant to observe that this related to what the Committee recommended to the attention of the Local Legislature; but which it now became the duty of the Imperial Parliament to undertake. The Committee stated, that it did not advert to mere circumstances, or comparatively petty grievances; but it looked to those grievances which involved a great principle and important consequences. The first defect which the Committee pointed out as existing in the laws of Jamaica was the want of reciprocity in the amount and application of the penalties inflicted by the authority of the special magistrates on the managers of slaves. This evil was pointed out by Lord Stanley at the very commencement of the working of the system. The next, the observation of the Committee was directed to the defective constitution of the tribunals before which the apprentice had to appear to purchase his freedom. The Committee stated, that in this respect there appeared to be no guard against excessive valuations. This was a great hardship, and entirely opposed to the spirit of the Abolition Act. It had therefore, been made the subject of a correspondence between the Secretary of State and the Governor of the colony, but as yet no remedy had been supplied. It was admitted, that the valuation had been raised to too great a height, and that great difficulty was presented to the slave obtaining manumission by the means which the tribunal, as at present constituted, afforded for bringing into operation the peculiar opinions of certain classes. For instance, in Jamaica, as well as in nearly all the other colonies, the tribunal was composed of a stipendiary magistrate, who was appointed for the especial protection of the slaves, and two of the magistrates of the colony. Now let it be understood that in making the statement he did not mean for a moment to imply that any of that highly respectable body, the magistrates of the colony, were capable intentionally of altering the valuation; but unquestionably the situation in which they were placed—the habits and feelings which in that situation they must have contracted—were highly calculated to give them some degree of bias on this question, or at least to raise a suspicion that such a bias existed. Nor did he mean to say, that in every case of contention between the apprentice and his employer the valuation had been excessive; but it was certain that in many instances it had been raised so high that the apprentice was unable to obtain manumission. That subject had been brought by his noble Friend (the Marquess of Sligo) near him under the notice of the House of Assembly; and the reply of the Assembly was, that they did not concur in the opinion that the valuation had been excessive, but that, on the contrary, they believed that those valuations had generally been below the proper mark. The matter had again been brought under the consideration of the Colonial Assembly by the present Governor, Sir Lionel Smith, but no remedy had yet been supplied. The next defect which the Committee had remarked was, the want of adequate protection to the special magistrates against vexatious prosecutions and actions. The Committee justly observed, that it was of extreme importance to afford every protection to the special magistrates in the performance of their duties; and it stated, that the special magistrates while performing those duties had been obstructed, because either the law was not sufficient to interfere in cases in which they had attempted to inquire into the working of the system, and ascertain the real situation of the apprentices, and to communicate with the various gangs of men and women while at their work, and also to examine into the workhouses, hospitals, or prisons; or from the obstacles thrown in their way by adverse parties. Some of the special magistrates had been exposed to vexatious prosecutions, and subjected to heavy costs. In those, although the Government had interposed, and rescued the magistrates from any loss, yet that was not a situation in which those persons ought to be left, and the Committee strongly urged, that some measure should be taken to secure to those magistrates impunity from such vexatious prosecutions. But the evil was not so much that arising from the actual number of these prosecutions as the dread of having such prosecutions suspended over them, which was calculated to create in the minds of the special magistrates a feeling that might operate against a bold and uncompromising discharge of their duty. He meant not, in making these remarks, to intimate the slightest reflection on the magistrates, but their Lordships must take human nature as it was, and consider whether the state of the law supplied motives to persons in authority for vigorous action or otherwise. It appeared from the papers before their Lordships that, even without approaching so far as the institution of vexatious prosecutions, the special magistrates were often interfered with in the discharge of their various duties. Obstructions were thrown in their way while passing from one estate to another, being frequently compelled by the magistrates and other persons of the colony to seek a circuitous route in order to visit estates adjoining each other. In short, it was easy to perceive, that where any intention existed to annoy the special magistrates there were vast opportunities afforded for presenting such obstructions. It might be observed, however, on this, as on every other defect pointed out by the Committee, that—which had been stated by Sir Lionel Smith, and indeed ought always to be kept in mind,—these evils in their practical effect were not of universal extent. There were many many honourable men, men of great integrity and real humanity, who were entirely aloof from offering any such vexatious obstructions; but, nevertheless, the opportunity was afforded, and it often occurred that there were persons who would take advantage of them, and of the law as it at present stood; and this might hereafter occur to a greater extent. The evil of obstructions to the special magistrates still existed. The next defect which the Committee pointed out was, that the law in Jamaica contained no provision to regulate the distribution of the hours of labour. The question respecting the hours of labour was the dispute between the eight-hour and the nine-hour system, the question being whether the apprentice should work eight hours or nine hours a-day, the total amount of the hours which he must work being fixed by an an Act of Parliament at 45½ hours a week. There was no doubt it was far more agreeable to, and much more to the advantage of the apprentice, that the nine-hour system should be adopted, because it would enable him to devote a greater portion of his time to the cultivation of his own land; the difference between the extra hour a day giving to the apprentice half of Friday and the whole of Saturday and Sunday to himself, whereas, by working only eight hours a day he was, in effect, deprived of any time that could be employed for his own advantage. It appeared by the documents on their Lordships' table that the want of fixedness of the number of hours at which the apprentice should work each day was one of the most important defects of the existing system, and that this defective system was in operation not universally, but to a considerable extent throughout the West Indies, but particularly in the island of Jamaica, where, it was to be observed, that those estates upon which disturbance and discontent prevailed, were generally estates in which the eight-hour system was enforced by the planters, in contradiction to the general wish of the apprentices. Now, the eight-hour system was also recommended to the Legislative Assembly of Jamaica for their consideration by his noble Friend (the Marquess of Sligo), and it had been once more recommended to that Assembly by Sir Lionel Smith. Sir Lionel Smith recommended that the Assembly should make regulations for establishing an uniformity of system as to time throughout the colony, and that that system should be a nine-hour system. That measure, however, the Assembly had not yet thought proper to adopt. He might be allowed to read for a moment what was stated in one of the latest accounts from Sir Lionel Smith. It was dated November 13th 1837. He said; "As regards the general working of the apprenticeship, we are at present considerably disturbed in some districts by certain obstinate planters and managers, who will not give up the eight-hour system of labour, and the struggle I have long maintained has now in some parishes broken out in open opposition by planters, and in some instances to open resistance by the apprentices." Sir Lionel Smith then stated two or three instances in which a most violent resistance was raised to the eight-hour system. He (Lord Glenelg) thought, both from the letter of Sir Lionel Smith, and from later reports of the special magistrates, that the adherence to the eight-hour system was materially injurious to the situation of the apprentices, and tended to keep up feelings of animosity between them and their employers to the greatest possible extent. In connection with this subject, namely, the eight-hour system—the Committee adverted, though not at great length to the subject of allowances to negroes, and to those indulgences which they enjoyed during a state of slavery. The Committee expressed their regret that these allowances and indulgencies which it had been usual for the planters to give to their slaves had, in many instances, been withheld from the apprentices. This was one of the greatest evils which at the present moment pressed upon the apprentice labourers. This, too, had been a subject brought more than once before the House of Assembly in Jamaica. In the time of slavery there were constant indulgencies—a remission of labour to persons who were infirm and aged; indulgences to mothers having a great number of children, and who were allowed to attend their children in sickness; the sick were allowed cooks and persons to bring them dinners. These were some of the most material of the allowances. In a majority of the cases, he believed that they were not withdrawn, but in many instances they were, and the effect was most serious to the comforts of the apprentices. This subject had been long addressed to the attention of the Assembly. Indeed, the Abolition Act did contemplate this very case of indulgences; but then it only provided that all such indulgences, allowances, and supplies, which the negroes had been entitled to in a state of slavery by law, should be continued to them; but it happened that, besides those indulgences to which the slaves were entitled by law, they were in the habit of receiving on many estates various indulgences which materially affected their comfort, health, and strength. These, unfortunately, being indulgences by custom were not included in the provisions of the Abolition Act. The consequence had been, that, in many instances since the passing of that Act, those customary allowances had been withheld; and mothers who attended their sick children were obliged to work extra hours to make up for the time lost while in the discharge of such parental duties; aged persons were now compelled to work in the fields who were formerly exempt from such employment. Sir Lionel Smith, in one of his dispatches, strongly expressed his feelings upon this subject. In a dispatch, dated the 23rd of September, 1837, he said:—"Your Lordship's dispatch first refers to the withdrawal of cooks and water carriers, as reported by Mr. Special Justice Hamilton, There can hardly be a greater grievance to the negro, or one more impolitic as regards the interests of the master. The hour and a half allowed for breakfast ceases to be a period of rest, for they must seek fuel and cook their morning meal, after which little time is left to take their food. The depriving them of water-carriers is still more injurious; for if water is not brought to the people at their work, it their rows, they are not permitted to quit the rows to seek it, and are thus exposed to the agonies of thirst under a burning sun." Another grievance was that already alluded to by his noble Friend—namely the non-allowance of the time occupier by the apprentices in going to and coming from their work. It often happened that an apprenticed labourer had to go five or six miles to his work; arrangements were often made, in which the planters excluded the time, out of the eight or nine working hours, occupied in walking those six mile out and in; so that, in addition to the nine hours, the apprentice lost all that time, and of course no time was left t him to cultivate his own ground. That was one of the grievances which was also pressed on the attention of the Assembly, and which certainly demanded the attention of the Imperial Legislature at home. Another grievance to which the Committee referred was, that corporal punish meats were inflicted on female apprentices. They observed that this subject had engaged the close attention both of the local government of Jamaica, and the Government of this country, and that measures had already been taken to prevent the violation of that most important part of the Abolition Act. Corporal punishment of females was expressly forbidden by the Abolition Act; but in spite of that prohibition it was clear from the reports made by his noble Friend, the Marquess of Sligo, and from subsequent reports, that the corporal punishment of females was carried on to a great extent. He would not enter into the details of the case, narrated in the documents before their Lordships—he meant the examinations as to the truth of the charges in the case of James Williams. A person had published a pamphlet in this country, setting forth the miseries of the workhouses, to which apprentices were very often sent for faults committed as apprentices, although, as apprentices they were not subject to corporal punishment: but when they were in the workhouse they were no longer under the general law of the country, but under the local laws by which each workhouse was regulated, and were subject to all the punishments which those local laws enacted. The consequence was, that the special magistrates ceased to have any authority over them. In the narrative of the apprentice James Williams, it was stated, that the practice of flogging females had been carried to a dreadful extent. It was quite unnecessary for him to distress their Lordships' feelings by reading any part of that most appalling narrative. The conclusion to which it irresistibly led, was, that every effort to put a stop to the practice of flogging females had failed. These were the several defects pointed out by the Committee as calling for redress, and they expressed their confidence that the local legislatures would adopt measures for redressing those grievances. Many attempts had been made by the colonial department and the local government to induce the local legislatures to redress these grievances, and their Lordships would, perhaps, permit him to read a short extract from a despatch which he addressed to Sir Lionel Smith on the 15th of November, 1837, and in which he recapitulated the various applications which had been made to the House of Assembly for the purpose of redressing some of the grievances complained of, and in order to carry out the intentions of the Imperial Parliament. Sir Lionel Smith had informed him that during the last Session of the Assembly he had proposed measures of redress of the principal grievances complained of. In reference to that subject, he (Lord Glenelg) enumerated the various applications which had already been made to the Assembly:— In my dispatch, No. 84, of the 29th of August, 1835, I urged an amendment of the law by which the ill-treatment of women in gaols might be prevented. In my despatch, No. 125, of the 15th October, 1835, I desired that the Assembly should be reminded of the pressing importance of enactments to secure the attendance of the children of apprentices at schools. In my dispatch, No. 257, of the 24th of April, 1836, I seconded the wishes of the Marquess of Sligo for laws to restrain cruelty in hospitals, and to authorise the inspection of them by special justices at all hours. A Committee of the Assembly alleged, it is true, that the right to inspect was not disputed; but I find by the dispatches now before me, that the attendance and proper treatment of the sick is not yet secured by law, although defects of the law on this head were pointed to by Lord Stanley at the very beginning of the apprenticeship, in his dispatch of the 20th of February, 1834, No. 3. In my dispatch No. 285, of the 14th of June, 1836, I desired that the Assembly should be applied to for a law to restrain the powers of officers in workhouses to the infliction of such punishments only as should have been authorised in writing by a magistrate. In my dispatch, No. 303, of the 28th of June, 1836, I directed application to be made to the Assembly for a law to prevent the flogging of women on the tread-mill In my dispatches, Nos. 87 and 103, of the 29th-of April and 10th of June, 1837, I had to regret the refusal of the Assembly to entertain the various proposals which you had brought before them, for supplying deficiencies in the Abolition Act, and for the obtaining uniformity in the distribution of the hours of labour; and in my dispatch No. 176, of the 31st of last month, I was under the necessity of issuing such instructions as had become necessary, in consequence of the Assembly having failed to adopt the recommendation of the Committee of the House of Commons in the Session of 1836, respecting amendments in the law which governs the valuation of apprentices for the purchase of their discharge. In my despatch No. 99, of the 25th of May, of this year, I desired that the Assembly should be called on to exempt the apprentices from the operation of certain enactments respecting vagrants. At the opening of the Session, Sir Lionel Smith brought many important propositions, before the House of Assembly. He recommended to them in very strong language the enactment of laws by which the indulgences to which the apprentices had been accustomed in the time of slavery should be continued. He adverted to the case of the mother being required to give extra labour on account of her attending her sick children; and he particularly adverted to the time taken up by the apprentices going to and from their work. He also pressed upon the Assembly the necessity of providing for the distribution of the hours of labour, and he further urged upon their consideration the system of appraisement of apprentices who might wish to purchase their manumission. In the dispatch from which he had just read, he expressed his satisfaction at Sir Lionel Smith having made these recommendations to the Assembly, and a hope that the Assembly would take them into consideration; and he informed Sir Lionel Smith that he should wait the result of his (Sir Lionel Smith's) application to the Assembly before taking any further measures. In the month of January last he received a dispatch from Sir Lionel Smith, dated the 24th of November, 1837, in which he stated, that he had made a proposition to the House of Assembly, and that the House had referred the proposition to a Select Committee, but upon which the Committee had made no report at the period Sir Lionel Smith wrote his dispatch. In that dispatch Sir Lionel Smith stated, Referring your Lordship to the message which I early sent to the present House of Assembly in view to the correction of certain clauses of the Abolition Law bearing oppressively upon the apprentices, I am sorry to inform your Lordship that I have no hope left that they will correct the evils I exposed to them to insure more just laws for the remaining apprenticeship. Your Lordship will see that I cannot report officially on the subject, till I get the official answer, but I thought it desirable to give your Lordship the earliest information on what I am assured will be the fate of my anxious endeavours to have the laws ameliorated, that your Lordship may make up your mind, and instruct me for my further guidance, when the subject is brought before you in a more tangible shape. The Assembly at the same time adjourned from that period to the 20th of February, thus, he conceived, at once fixing their intention not seriously to consider the subject; for having adjourned without having intimated the slightest intention of taking into consideration any one of those measures, the certain effect of it, if it were not the policy of that step, would be to defer the questions to a period when it would be impossible that any law passed in that colony could come under the consideration of the Imperial Parliament in time to take any effectual measure this session. It therefore became a matter of absolute necessity to call upon the Imperial Parliament to interpose, in order to supply such remedies as the Assembly had neglected to apply. The bill, the second reading of which he was now about to propose, was intended to carry out the objects of the Abolition Act, and to meet the principal defects pointed out by the Committee, and repair the omissions of which the Assembly had been guilty. He did not think it necessary at present to enter into a detail as to the measures proposed in the provisions of the bill; that was the duty of a Committee; but all the matters to which he had adverted—namely, the distribution of the time of labour; the inadequate protection of the special justices; the want of reciprocity in the terms between employers and apprentices; the discontinuance of the customary allowances; the time of going to and coming from work; and the corporal punishment of females—these formed the subjects of the provisions of the bill. He would only now speak of one or two of these points, confining himself to those to which reference was made the other night. With respect to the protection to be given to special justices, this was of a twofold nature, direct and indirect. He called it direct where the bill proposed to declare as well as to enact (for he believed the law at present to be what this bill would still make it; but in order to put an end to all disputes, the bill would enact as well as declare) that all those obstructions which were now opposed and interfered with the special magistrates in the discharge of their duties should be liable to be punished by a penalty. It would empower the special magistrates to visit the apprentices at their work, to enter houses and hospitals, and to observe the whole proceedings on any estate; to receive complaints from the apprenticed labourers, and to communicate with them personally in workhouses and houses of correction, either with other persons or alone. The bill would also protect the special magistrates from the intervention of any person disposed to obstruct them in their passing from one estate to another. Then, with respect to protecting them from vexatious prosecutions and actions, it had been first his intention to enact that whenever an action was brought against a special ma- gistrate, it should be competent for the governor, with the advice of the law officers, to arrest the progress of any such legal proceeding; but he had since altered that part of the bill, and it was now proposed that such actions should be allowed to proceed, but that there should be an appeal to a Court of Error in the colony, and thence an appeal to the Queen in council at home. There were Courts of Error in all the legislative colonies, and those courts consisted of the governor and council. He could not state the actual number of the council in each colony. In Jamaica he thought there were nine members of the council. A certain number of them were termed official councillors, the others were called unofficial. The official councillors were the chief justice and the attorney-general, persons evidently removed from all suspicion of bias from personal interest in any question that might come before them; the bishop of the colony was equally so when present. In the ordinary course of proceeding a Court of Error judged only of the law and not of the fact. If the judge in the court below had committed no error in law the Court of Error had no jurisdiction over the case; because it was not able to judge of the conduct of a jury or the propriety of their verdict, inasmuch as no evidence was before it. The court could not, consequently, judge of or condemn any unrighteous verdict on the part of a jury. That was a great defect, the object being to obtain justice to the apprentices. For that purpose it was proposed in this bill that the evidence on the record and also the rejected evidence (if any) should be laid before the Court of Error, by which the court would be able to judge not only of the law but of the fact, and the finding of the jury. Of course the same course would be adopted with respect to an appeal to the Privy Council. It was also intended to remove all limitation as to the amount of money involved in any suit. At present an appeal could not be had where the sum in question was below a certain amount. This gave the party suing the power to fix the amount of his claim just below the minimum, and thereby deprive the opposite party of his right of appeal. That was removed by this bill. Since the bill had been drawn he had been told that although this part of the measure was sufficiently clear, so far as the colonies were concerned, yet as far as it related to the Privy Council the clause did not attain that object. All he could say was, that such was the object for which the bill was framed, and he should be ready to adopt any amendment in Committee in order to secure it. In making this proposition to their Lordships he was not unaware that many objections could be made to the proposal; and he should beg their Lordships to consider that it was really a matter of great difficulty how to deal with the subject. In details of this nature—and which were in some degree new—it was of course necessary that he should appeal to their Lordships' indulgence, and request the co-operation of any noble Lord who could suggest any other plan more likely to obtain the end they had in view. But if it were intended that the special magistrates should be protected by an appeal to a Court of Error, he did not know that any other words could be supplied than those which constituted the present clause. But on this and the other objects of the Bill, he must entreat their Lordships' to come to a consideration of the Bill in Committee with a sincere—he did not doubt their sincerity—but he meant with impartial and candid minds, to remedy the defects which existed, and to carry out the intentions of the Abolition Act. There were courts of error in all the Legislative colonies where there were juries; but there were no courts of error in the Crown colonies where there were no juries. Therefore he should propose with respect to Guiana, Trinidad, and the other Crown colonies (which would be done by an Order in Council), to give an appeal from the supreme court, which was composed of three judges sent out from this country, to the Privy Council, the limitation of the amount involved being removed, and the whole facts of the case being also brought before the Privy Council. With respect to the corporal punishment of females, that by this Bill was at once prohibited. It was provided that no female apprentices should be liable to suffer corporal punishment for any offence whatever; and with respect to all apprentices, men as well as women, they also, from the 1st of September, 1828, were to be exempt from corporal punishment as apprentices. It was also provided that for any gross act of cruelty or injustice exercised in any of these cases which he had enumerated it should be competent for the Governor to declare the apprentice to be immediately entitled to his or her unqualified freedom. The next subject was that of classification. Classification was provided for by the Abolition Act, and laws were passed in all the colonies for carrying out that part of the measure. Their Lordships' were aware that the apprentices were divided into two classes; the non prædials, who were to be free in the month of August, 1838; and the prædials, who would obtain their freedom in the month of August, 1840. It was, therefore, of great importance that this classification should be clearly defined. But the laws which were passed in the colonies were in some respects obscure. He did not mean, that any objection was taken with respect to the tribunal appointed to ascertain the classification, but in several of the colonies a time was fixed by the law after which no revision could take place in the classification; in others, though there was no limitation of the time, yet there was great obscurity in the laws; at all events, during the last year, reports had been received from many of those islands which proved that a very general impression among the apprentices in those islands was, that the classification principle had not been carried into effect; it was, therefore, very important that some amendment should be introduced. For that purpose it was proposed to authorise the Governor to extend the time for revising the classification; and it was further provided that the decision of the persons appointed to conduct the revision should be final. Having thus briefly stated the general objects of the Bill, he begged once again to entreat their Lordships to give it their indulgent consideration, because the subject was really not only one of great importance, but also of great difficulty. The noble Lord concluded by moving that the Bill be now read a second time.

Lord Brougham

rose merely for the purpose of stating that he by no means objected to the principle of the measure, nor, as far as he had looked into them, to the bulk of the details. No one could concur more heartily than he did in the proposition of the noble Lord (Glenelg), that the time had fully arrived at which it was incumbent upon the Parliament of this country to take this subject into its own hands. The conduct of the Legislature of Jamaica had been such as to convince everybody, even those who enter- tained the strongest repugnance, the most inveterate West-Indian aversion, to the interference of the Imperial Legislature in matters of local concern, that it was idle to look to the colonial assemblies for the fair execution of the Act of emancipation, and that unless that Act were intended to become a dead letter, it was necessary for the Parliament at home to arouse itself, and to take such measures as should compel the colonies to execute the law. Upon that point, therefore, he fully concurred with the noble Lord. He entirely agreed with the noble Lord also when he spoke of the great importance of the question; and, again, when he predicated the difficulty by which it was surrounded. He felt, indeed, that it would not only be difficult, but impossible, constantly and permanently, by any system of regulations that could be adopted, whether those devised by the noble Lord or those suggested by the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Sligo) behind him, to provide anything like an effectual cure for the evils which had sprung up. He looked to no remedy of a palliative nature with the slightest feeling of hope, in fact he could regard no proposition of that kind with any other feeling than one of absolute despair. There was one remedy, and but one alone—a remedy pointed out by the wise reflection of Mr. Burke, and confirmed by the still more eloquent and pointed expression in which Mr. Canning, also dealing with the same subject, clothed the same profound observation—the result of knowledge of the nature of man as well as of experience of the past—namely, that no laws could be trusted which were made to regulate slavery, because none of those laws ever did or ever could carry along with them an executory principle—that was to say, such a principle as would enable the laws to execute themselves. Nothing could be more obvious; for it was plain that all measures of this description must be executed by the whites with respect to the blacks—must be executed by a superior and predominant caste against, and over, and to the subjugation of, an inferior and servile class; and these two classes, thus separated from each other by the relation of master and apprentice, were also, unhappily, separated by the contrast of colour, diversity of habits, and difference of race. So that to think of procuring an impartial and an effectual administration of justice, by trusting the happiness, the comforts, and the rights of the one class exclusively in the hands of the other class, was about as hopeless a dream as ever a lawgiver indulged in. Expressing his strong conviction upon that point, he might perhaps be asked what remedy he would propose, and what executory principle he would introduce into any measure he might devise for the purpose of attaining the ends desired? His answer would be brief and plain. Free the blacks, emancipate the apprentices, abolish the intermediate or qualified state of slavery which was yet permitted to remain, and then an executory principle would be procured; for the negro would then have the staff in his own hands—would then be able to work out his own safety—would then be able to free himself from his master, to fill an independent station, and play an independent part. As soon as that was effected—as soon as the negro became his own master—as soon as no man could say to him "go, and he goeth; come, and he cometh"—as soon as he had no man to make him afraid, being himself as free and as independent as any man with whom he came in contact—as soon as that happy change was effected, everything would fall into its right place, and there would no longer remain a greater difficulty in having the laws well executed, or in securing the rights, the comforts, and the enjoyments of the inferior classes in the West Indies, than there was on the part of the peasantry of this country in procuring protection against the upper classes, of which all mixed societies must be partially composed. As far as the regulations contained in the present Bill were concerned, he saw, generally speaking, as far as they went, no objection to them. There was one, however, of a very important character, and to which he wished shortly to call the attention of the noble Lord, as well as the noble Marquess, (Sligo), with the view of having it re-considered and re-modelled. He alluded to the provisions contained in the 10th section of the Bill, by which it was proposed to introduce an entirely new principle into the jurisprudence of the empire, namely, a new proceeding in Courts of Error. It was impossible to exaggerate the mischiefs which resulted from the present practice in the Courts of Error, but he very much doubted whether the protection proposed in the 10th section of the present measure would be found of an efficient character; he doubted whether it would not tend to augment rather than to diminish the existing evil. That, therefore, would be a point for serious consideration in Committee. There was another provision of the Bill to which he also strongly objected. It was provided, that every thing which the judge took down upon his note should be made matter of record, against which there could be no averment, however inaccurately the note might have been taken. He could never assent to such a provision as that. Every one who had practised at the bar in England knew how common it was for a judge whose notes had been imperfectly taken to report a cause out of court. With what propriety; then, could it be proposed to convert the judge's note in Jamaica into a positive record against which there could be no averment whatever? If such changes in the law were to be effected at all, the utmost care would be required in the introduction of them into the, colonies. It was to be remembered, that the forms of the English law did not fully obtain in all the colonies. In many of them there were no Courts of Error. See, then, the difficulty of introducing such a change into the old Dutch law which obtained in Guiana; or into the French law which remained in St. Lucie; or into the remnant of the old Spanish law which lingered in Trinidad. He thought that the introduction of this very delicate branch of our own law into those colonies whose laws were not purely English would be attended with insuperable difficulties. He had thrown out these loose observations with great candour and great goodwill towards a measure which he heartily hoped would succeed in effecting all the objects for which it was intended.

The Marquess of Sligo

observed, that a great deal had been said at different times and by different parties with respect to the Bill which had been passed for the emancipation of the negroes. Many maintained, that it was wholly inefficient for the purpose for which it was intended, whilst others proclaimed aloud, that the nation had been humbugged and bamboozled, Even his noble and learned Friend (Lord Brougham) who had just escaped had more than once asserted, that the nation's money had been procured under false pretences. Experience, however, told him, that the noble Lord by whom the measure was introduced deserved the gratitude of every human being who felt an interest in the welfare of his fellow-creatures. If the measure had not succeeded to the full extent intended by those by whom it was introduced, the want of complete success was to be attributed, not to any defect of the Bill itself, but to the invincible obstinacy of the planters. Every one who had investigated the matter, or who professed any personal experience of the state of things in the colonies, was firmly convinced, that the time had fully arrived at which it was necessary to make an appeal to the British Parliament. He fully approved of the Bill now introduced as far as it went; but in some respects he thought it did not go far enough. He should, therefore, feel it his duty to move several amendments in Committee; but, with their Lordships' permission, he would place those amendments upon the table, and move that they be printed, so that each of their Lordships might have an opportunity of considering them before they were moved in the Committee.

The Duke of Wellington

said, that there was no man either in that House or in the country who had been more anxious than himself that the measure for the emancipation of the negroes should be entirely successful. He had, however, conceived from the first, that the only chance of success for it would arise from the local legislatures of the colonies endeavouring with good faith to carry into full execution the measure imposed by the Imperial Parliament of Great Britain, and for which the colonies had received an amount of compensation which he supposed even they themselves must consider ample. It appeared, however, that they had not carried the law into execution in the way they ought to have done. Some two or three years ago, the British Parliament was under the absolute necessity of consenting to a measure, the passing of which was rendered imperative in consequence of the refusal of the Legislature of Jamaica (under circumstances not very creditable to itself) to enact a law which it had promised positively to adopt. Under these circumstances, considering that they were now approaching to within a couple of years of the period when a new state of society was to be established in all the British possessions where slavery had ever existed, he must say he thought Parliament ought not to hesitate about adopting some mea- sure of the description now proposed for the purpose of carrying into full and complete execution the object which the Imperial Legislature had in view when the Emancipation Act was passed. It appeared to him that if the legislatures of the colonies had acted as sensible men ought, in the circumstances in which they were placed four years ago, they would have had before them, and the British Parliament would have had before it, a very different prospect from that which he feared existed at the present moment. He said, "he feared," because he was anxious not to aggravate the difficulty of the position in which the colonists had thrown themselves by any exaggerated statement either of their conduct or of the consequences which that conduct had produced. He did not say, that he entirely approved of the bill now proposed; some of its enactments he thought were decidedly objectionable. But he did approve of a measure of this description being brought under their Lordships' consideration. He was glad, therefore, that their Lordships had consented to read it a second time, and to go into Committee upon it, when it might be seen how far it was necessary that each of its enactments should be carried into execution, and how far they might be improved by the amendments of which the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Sligo) had given notice. What he (the Duke of Wellington) complained of principally was this, that the two houses of Parliament should be under the necessity of adopting a measure of this description. He thought that the colonies had behaved exceedingly ill in obliging Parliament to take such measures as this into consideration, for there were some enactments in the bill then under their consideration which it was a shame for any legislature to enact in respect to any body of persons whatever. But as the colonial legislatures had wholly neglected, or carefully evaded the taking of the necessary measures, it became the imperative duty of the British Parliament to interfere, and to take such steps as might be required to compel an obedience to the provisions of the Emancipation Act. The noble and learned Lord, (Brougham) whom he did not then see in his place, had stated his intention of moving an amendment to the bill, namely, that the apprenticeship of the negroes should cease on the 1st of August, 1838. He (the Duke of Wellington) did not mean to give any opinion upon that question now; but it certainly would be desirable that the noble and learned Lord should take some opportunity, previous to their going into Committee on the bill, of stating in what form he intended to bring his motion under the consideration of the House.

The Earl of Ripon

had entertained great expectations that the planters would have rendered any further legislative interference by the Imperial Parliament unnecessary. He regretted exceedingly that those expectations were disappointed, and that Parliament was obliged to take some such measure as that proposed by the noble Lord. He did not, however, believe, that the blame was equally applicable to all the islands. In Barbadoes, for instance, the House of Assembly had agreed to regulations much more in harmony with the wishes of the Imperial Legislature; and he should not be sorry if the efficiency of the bill would not be thereby impaired, to see that and the other colonies to which he had alluded taken out of the operation of the measure. He had given the whole of the West-India question the best consideration which he had been able to give it, and the result was—he might be too sanguine—that in his opinion there was good reason to hope, if not to believe, that when the period of emancipation arrived, the negroes would conduct themselves as well as any other class, of freemen under similar circumstances. He grounded this expectation upon the great improvement which had taken place in their character, and in their religious and moral feelings since the passing of the Act of 1833, He had received letters on the subject from the Bishop of Jamaica, from the Bishop of Barbadoes, and from other persons of eminence and credit; and they all, particularly the two bishops, bore testimony to the improved character of the negro population. Among other instances of their advance to civilization, one of the most striking was, that they had become sensible of the obligation of an oath. This was the more gratifying, as one of the great objections made to emancipation before the passing of the act was, that it was impossible to rely on slave evidence, for that the negroes were perfectly incapable of distinguishing between truth and falsehood. He, therefore, considered their having acquired this faculty an indication of their great and he hoped rapid improvement.

Bill read a second time.