Lords Sitting of 16 July 1838

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a second times:—Church Discipline; Qualification of Electors; Sheriffs Courts.—Read a first time:—Royal Exchange; Prisons (Scotland).
Petitions presented. By the Duke of RICHMOND, from Legal Practitioners in the county of Elgin, in favour of the Sheriffs Courts (Scotland) Bill.—By Lord SONDES, from the Operative Conservative Association of Warrington, for the expulsion of Roman Catholics from Parliament.—By the Earl of CARLISLE, from the Church Missionary Society of Carlisle, against Idolatry in India; and from the town of Carlisle, in favour of the Irish Municipal Corporations Bill.—By the Duke of WELLINGTON, from Individuals connected with the Corporation of Cork, not to pass the Irish Municipal Corporations Bill without compensating those affected by it.—By the Earl of WINCHILSEA, from the neighbourhood of Liverpool, and from Alverstoke, against any further Grant of Money to the College of Maynooth.

APPOINTMENT OF MR. TURTON.
The Earl of Winchilseawas sorry, that he was not present the other evening, when a noble Friend of his (Lord Wharncliffe) asked a question of the noble Viscount, which appeared to him to be of great importance. So far as it went, the answer given to that question, which related to a recent appointment in Canada, was satisfactory. But, had he been in his place when the noble Viscount expressed his regret at the appointment, he should not have been entirely satisfied, without inquiring what course the Government meant to adopt on the subject. When he had formerly sought information as to this appointment, he entertained no doubt that the individual alluded to had gone out with a view to his becoming a member of one of the highest and most important missions that had ever been sent from this country; and he objected to any such appointment, because he viewed it as being closely connected with the character of the Sovereign. In his opinion, no one should have been employed on such a mission, except his character was free from taint or blemish. He now begged leave to ask the noble Viscount a question, namely, whether the individual to whom he alluded had been recalled? That was the only question that he meant to ask. He had heard it reported, but he trusted the rumour was without foundation, that the appointment had not

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been interfered with. It had also been reported, that another individual, who had been imprisoned for three years, on account of a very grave offence, had left this country, with a view to an appointment on the same commission. He was ready to make all just allowances for the failings of individuals, for the weakness of human nature. He did not mean to say, that in consequence of the unpleasant situation in which individuals might place themselves by improper conduct, they ought never to be allowed to hold any appointment under the Government. But this was, in his mind, a most peculiar case; and he must say, that the situation which was filled by the person to whom he alluded, ought not to have been conferred on him, connected, as he repeated that it was, with the character of the Sovereign of this country. If the second report to which he had drawn the attention of the noble Viscount were a fact, then, he must say, that two persons had been selected for important situations which they were unfit to fill, and from which they ought to be removed. He hoped, that the rumour was not true, and to elicit the truth, he had put this question to the noble Viscount.
Viscount Melbournesaid, that Ministers had very recently received an account of the appointment complained of, and had not yet had time to communicate with the Government abroad. Under these circumstances, it would not at present be convenient to state the course which Government intended to pursue.
The matter ended.

SLAVERY IN THE CROWN COLONIES.
Lord Broughamhaving presented a large number of petitions, praying for the immediate abolition of Negro Slavery, said, he rose for the purpose, and, as he hoped, and most confidently expected, for the last time, of addressing this Parliament, or any assembled inhabitants of this country, on the great question which had called them that day together. If he had long laboured strenuously, but feebly—honestly, though humbly, in this great cause—if he had, through good report and through evil report, abided by that cause—if he had, through various fortunes, even when his mind was most depressed by the prospects before him, and the circumstances which surrounded him, never for one instant felt despondency as to its ultimate success, it was, because he had at all
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times to support him the public mind of this kingdom. At all times this question had been gloriously distinguished from all others, in that it laid asleep, for the moment and for the occasion, every difference of political opinion; all discrepancies of religious feeling, faction, and sectarianism, went to sleep when humanity and justice, and sound policy, and the character of the country, were all involved in the issue. That it was, that bore up his spirit, even when aware he was outnumbered by the representatives of the people, to the extent of three, four, or five to one—even when after the representatives of the people had come round to the opinion of their constituents, and had given their voices, with that of the country, in favour of the measure, even when the very day after they, by another vote, reversed that decision. When, too, their Lordships were pleased to interpose one of those obstacles which had been deemed necessary to prevent rash and precipitate Legislation, but which, on that question, if on no other, produced effects all but fatal to the hopes of the abolitionists—even in those most gloomy times, and when they had gone so far as to carry the measure of 1833, and he found that experiment successful in no one part—even then, when their Lordships would not listen to his warnings, nor lend a favourable ear to his entreaties, and he was aware that the Members who would support him were so small that he dared not ask for a division, even then his spirits were undaunted—he felt his cause to be just and right, and he knew the people to be with him. He now stood before them under different circumstances, he came now to rejoice in all but the accomplishment of all his hopes. He came now to remind their Lordships that the day had at length, and on this very day, arrived, when they could not refuse their consent—all that was wanting—to complete this measure of justice, and that all must be given in England, because in the colonies there was not the power to give it. But he must first remind their Lordships, and a few words would suffice, of what had been done in the West Indies with regard to this question. Glory and gratitude ever lasting to the people of Antigua, for their bright example had been followed elsewhere, and it seemed as if the lustre of their achievement had enabled others to see the error of their ways. Antigua,

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however, took the lead. Antigua, two years before any other, adopted a similar course, came forward and dared to be wise, dared to be prudent. She knew and felt, that the most prudent and the safest policy was also the most virtuous, the most just, and therefore the most prompt and the most bold. Her example was followed by Montserrat, and by the smaller isles, and then by the greater colony, which arrogated to itself the title of "Little England"—he meant the great colony of Barbadoes. There remained Jamaica, and he was informed this day, as if by the special interposition of Providence—having postponed his motion from time to time owing to one accident and another—having put it off on the last occasion in consequence of the illness of a noble Lord—having thus waited till this day to bring forward this motion, whereof he had given notice, on this very morning there had arrived, to greet him on the dawn of the day that should witness the last discussion in Parliament, as he fervently hoped, of this great question, the glorious intelligence that, at length, Jamaica too had given way, and that, in Jamaica, with unexampled dispatch, in the space of three or four days, the measure had been carried through the assembly, and the negroes of Jamaica were free on the 1st of August. These were the slave colonies which followed the example of Antigua. The numbers emancipated were, in Jamaica 235,000, in Barbadoes 54,000, and in all, including Antigua, there were not less than 255,000, besides those whom the measure of 1833, as non-predials and young children, emancipated. But in the unchartered colonies, as they were called, which had not the option, even if they pleased it, of emancipating their slaves, the whole amount of slaves whose fate hung upon the decision of their Lordships was no less than 130,000 souls. With regard to those colonies which had legislatures of their own, their Lordships might with a show of justice have pleaded their reluctance to interfere with those legislatures, but could this be urged with regard to the unchartered colonies, which had no legislatures at all? The Crown was to them what the House of Assembly and the Legislative Council were to Jamaica and Barbadoes. Having no legislature, they could not, even if they would, follow the example which had been set them by some of the other colonies. Let their
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Lordships only look to the state of Guiana, Trinidad, St. Lucia, and Mauritius. He said nothing of the Cape of Good Hope, where since the 1st of September the slaves had been emancipated by law. Were the slaves of Guiana and the other colonies which he had named less fitted for the reception of freedom than those of Jamaica, Barbadoes, and Antigua? Was the lot of the slave under the tropical sun of the Mauritius, or in those other islands which were not blessed with the healthiest climates, one whit lighter than in Jamaica, or in Antigua, where they enjoyed all manner of comforts? Quite the reverse. It was in the savannahs of Trinidad, and upon the alluvial soil of Guiana, that human life was most prodigally wasted, in ministering to European avarice, and it was there that it behoved the mother country to interpose to put a stop to the inhuman deaths, to the diseases which were felt to be more cruel than death, to the fatal contamination which the necessity of labouring on those fatally unwholesome plains inflicted on those wretched victims of avarice. But the voice from Mauritius, which pierced their ear, and rended the silence of that eastern sea, was aggravated in its tones of pity, and fell still harsher upon their ears, from this hard addition to the lot of the slave, that three out of four of those who cultivated the plains of Mauritius, all suffering worse torments than even those which were inflicted upon the negroes of Guiana and of Trinidad, had never in their lives been legally slaves at all. They had been transported thither, not only against the law of nature, but after the law of this land had made transportation of the slave a capital crime; and 30,000 capital felonies had been committed in conveying over 30,000 of these victims of their weakness, and planting them under the unwholesome climate and upon the unwholesome soil of that Mauritius. If ever there had been a single neglect of duty upon the part of a Legislature, it was theirs, in not having at once broken through the fetters of a mere legal informality, and passed a new law to prevent the recurrence of these monstrous outrages; but in paying, on the contrary, the frightful sum of 2,000,000 l. sterling as compensation to those capital felons, instead of giving them their deserts upon the gallows. The House was perhaps not aware that there was not more than 7,000 out of the 38,000 negro slaves in Mauri-

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tins who could be considered as legally deprived of their liberty, or as having ever been made slaves. The report of the commissioners stated, that upwards of half of the whole number of slaves in that island were brought over by capital felony, and it had been admitted by the hon. Secretary in the other House of Parliament, that twenty-five out of thirty-eight of the Mauritius negroes were not registered as slaves. Now, let him suppose a case; if six men were upon some charge committed to prison, suppose that it turned out afterwards by the clearest possible evidence, by universal admission and general consent that three out of the six had been guiltless from the beginning and ought never to have been tried, he believed, that no one would be audacious enough to say that, if either all must be punished or all pardoned, the three guiltless persons ought to suffer. That was his case with regard to the Mauritius, except that it was aggravated by the proportion being five out of the six. Now, he wished to remind their Lordships very briefly of the manner in which he had formerly put this subject, and which was now even more unanswerable than it had been then. Let their Lordships suppose that that which experience had since proved had been revealed to them previously to the passing of the Emancipation Act. Suppose it had been revealed to them, that that measure had been founded in a fallacy, and that there was nothing in the circumstances of these islands to require the preparatory state which that bill provided. Compensation was given to the planters, but that preparatory state was not intended as a compensation to the master, but it was for the negroes' sake; it was introduced for his benefit and his welfare; and his interest, it was argued, required that transitive state. But suppose they had been told with the same certainty which experience had given, that the negro could work for wages as well as the white man, that the negro was a peaceable creature, and patient of misery and injustice to a degree far exceeding that of the white man; supposing such to have been the case, he should like to see the man even now who would have been the advocate of an apprenticeship, or who woule have attempted to vindicate the propriety or lawfulness of the transitive state. But now they knew all that was certainly as if they had been informed of it by revelation—experience had taught them the fallacy of all their appre-
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hensions and conjectures; and other reasons, independently of all considerations of public policy and expedience, had been brought into the scale against the system of apprenticeship. Applications of various kinds had been made to their Lordships' House against that system, and upon various grounds. Even the score of interest—the interest of the planters themselves—the abolition of the apprenticeship had been recommended. In Antigua, they had heard of an estate, the expense of cultivating which by hired labour was 550 l., but nearly double that amount by the labour of slaves. As to the measure being safe, and attended with no risk or peril, they had a large body of evidence; and last of all, they had heard the entreaties of a Gentleman, whose petition he had presented, and who was the resident proprietor of an estate in Jamaica, producing 8 or 9,000 l. a year—whose whole interest was involved in the prosperity of the colony, and in its peace and tranquillity—and who had written a letter in which he implored Parliament to lose not a moment, because the two years of pretended preparation would only give rise to bad blood between the slaves and the planters; and because he held, that that which was safe in August, 1838, would be pregnant with danger in August, 1840. These were the circumstances which rendered it not only safe—but if safe, necessary—a duty incumbent on their Lordships to consent to the motion, which he intended to propose. He saw nothing but peril in delay; he spoke not his own opinions—because he must be ignorant of the facts from practical experience—but he spoke the opinions of the persons resident in Jamaica, and amongst others of the Governor, as expressed in his address to the Assembly of Jamaica, in which, after doing justice to the excitement on this subject which had prevailed in this country—to its intensity—to its universality, and he thanked God, he might add, to its success—he recommended the speedy emancipation of all the apprentices, and concluded with these remarkable words:—"As Governor under these circumstances, and I never shrink from any responsibility, I pronounce it physically impossible to maintain the apprenticeship with any hope of successful agriculture." Then for whom did he now appear as counsellor? He appeared for the planters themselves as well as the slaves, and he had the authority

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of the Governor of Jamaica addressed to them, who, if he were dealing in terms of mere romance would have turned away from him in disgust, or whose experience, if he were wishing to deceive, must have frustrated the attempt—he had his authority to say, that the cultivation of the islands by slaves would be physically impossible. The hoe would fall from the negro's hand; he would not work as a slave; but he had already shown, that he would work as a free man for hire. His resistance in the former case might be merely passive, for he had shown himself of all creatures, God knew! the most patient and enduring. But he would not answer for the slaves of Jamaica or Trinidad, and still less for the slaves of the Mauritius, rankling in their souls, as the feeling must be, that though others were then under the colour of our unjust law, still there was some legal colour of a right de facto for it—whilst they were then solely by crime and capital felony. He would not answer for the tranquillity of any one island in the eastern or Caribbean seas, if this right—for right he called it—was withheld. But he might now turn to Jamaica, if not in language of admiration for the exploits of which that day's arrival had brought them intelligence, still in terms of hearty congratulation. Jamaica had saved herself from all those fatal scenes which, if justice were not done, there was two much reason to apprehend. "Rempublicam, vitamque omnium, bona, fortunes, conjuges, liberosque atque hoc domicilium clarissimi imperii, fortunatissimam pulcherrimamque urbem, hodierno die, deorum immortalium summo amore, ex Hammâ atque ferro, ac pene ex faucibus fati, ereptam, et conservatam ac restitutam, videtis." He heartily congratulated that great colony, which by the favour of heaven had taken that noble step; at length it had deemed it wise and fitting so to act, while it was called to-day, and it now no longer had to dread the awful and tempestuous night of negro insubordination. Now, that brought him to the consideration of the unchartered Crown colonies. They had no Legislators of their own. They could not do what Jamaica had done—they could not conserve, and restore, and place in safety their lives and fortunes—their wives, and children from the fire and the sword, and the violence of the negro; they had no legislatures; but to them it was, and to the Crown by their advice, as
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its hereditary counsellors, that the Crown colonies had a right to look for assistance; but he should perhaps be told of some court of policy—or counsellors, or other local authority—a mongrel legislature—a doubtful spurious authority—half recommendatory, half law-giving, with respect to the acts of which they could hardly tell whether they were suggestions or enactments; but let that authority, or legislature, be what they pleased, until they gave its acts force, force of law they had none. On other subjects the Crown had not left those colonies to legislate for themselves; orders in council and instructions had been issued. But there was another consideration—time was everything in this case; despatch was all-in-all; a week's delay might be attended with great inconvenience; a month's delay was highly dangerous; half a year's might be fatal. A despatch from England would not reach the Mauritius in less than two months and a-half, and it would take the same time to bring back the answer. Here were five months gone, and another two months and a must pass before the proceedings of the colonial Government could have the force of law. Eight months, therefore, must elapse, even if the colonists were disposed to do that which he disbelieved in their disposition to do. He said he disbelieved in their disposition to do so, because a less subordinate and less well-disposed set of men than the residents in the Mauritius it was difficult to find. They had all the prejudices of planters against the negroes, all the prejudices of colonists against the mother country, and, added t these, the accidental prejudices of Frenchmen against Englishmen; and, above all, that strange, but most mistaken, prejudice, from which even the most liberal of our neighbours on the other side of the Channel were not entirely free—that at the bottom of this question of slavery there was an English interest working against a French interest, and that by following our example they would be falling into some trap prepared for them. As the whole of the islands, having legislatures, had effected emancipation for themselves, why should not the Crown come forward and rescue and conserve, and restore to the slaves in the Crown colonies their freedom, and that of their wives, and their children? By all these considerations—by the character we had for fortitude in war and courtesy in peace—by the patience which we had

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shown under burdens and sufferings, but which was nothing to the patience with which the negro had endured the monstrous outrages which had been inflicted upon him—by our character for justice, mercy, and religion, and especially the Christian religion, which, whenever it painted a sentence or adorned a period, was so loudly and even pharisaically professed—and he would never cease to call it pharisaical, if, with the word of the Gospel on our lips, we refused to act in its spirit—by the groans of these bondsmen, in the islands, and by 24,000,000 of voices echoing those groans, and calling on their Lordships for justice—by all these appeals to their feelings, their principles, and their religion, he claimed at their Lordships' hands an assent to his motion. The noble and learned Lord concluded by moving, that an humble address be presented to her Majesty, praying that her Majesty would be graciously pleased to issue an order in Council forthwith, to put a period under proper provisions and regulations to negro apprenticeship in the unchartered colonies of the Crown.
Lord Glenelgobserved, that the noble and learned Lord, in the commencement of his speech, had expressed his congratulations at the news received that day from the West-Indies. He (Lord Glenelg) joined most cordially in the feeling of general satisfaction which that news must have inspired in the mind of all who took an interest in this great question. The noble and learned Lord must not suppose, that those who resisted the earlier close of apprenticeship felt less for the interests of the negro population and for the interests of the colonies than the noble and learned Lord himself did when he moved for the intervention of the imperial authority on the subject. He and those who acted with him had always maintained, that the objection was, to the intervention of that imperial authority in cases where it was not required, where it was opposed by a great principle, and where the result might much more effectively, more satisfactorily, and more permanently be obtained by acts of the local Legislatures themselves. They had always felt and avowed, that an earlier termination than in 1840 of the apprenticeship was desirable, if that object could be obtained by Acts of the local Legislatures themselves. This was the sentiment which he had repeatedly ex-
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pressed in the course of last year in despatches to the various Governors of the Windward and Leeward Islands. Indeed, he might say, that the movement in Barbadoes was originated by a despatch from himself in which this sentiment was stated. The objection to the proposition of the noble and learned Lord had been this, that there existed a compact binding the two parties which England could not consistently infringe upon. The local Legislatures, however, had themselves now solved the question, by taking the course which the Government here had often pointed out to them as advisable, but which Government had entirely left it within the decision of the local Legislatures to adopt. It had always been considered by the Government here, that any such measures would be far more successfully and more safely carried into effect by the local authorities. It would have been highly prejudicial to the object, it would, indeed, have been very dangerous, to have sought to effect this object without the previous sanction and hearty co-operation of the local authorities. To have done otherwise would have only been to sow the seeds of such exasperation and such suspicion among those authorities as in a material degree would have tainted the value and endangered the success of the experiment. With regard to the question of policy there had been a difference between himself and his noble and learned Friend. What had resulted from the proceedings which they had taken? His noble Friend had said, that he could not expect any success from the course taken, but the Government said, that they did expect a successful result. He said, trust the local legislators in this matter, and hey would be induced to yield to the wishes of this country; but his noble Friend said, trust not the local legislatures, as they would do nothing to advance this question. Did not the result show, that it was better not to exact too much from them when aid was so desirable for the successful working out of the object in view, and that it was better to show that you had confidence in them, than to take those steps which would only have the result of driving them to despair, and who might then pursue a course which would impede in a great degree the success of this measure? He had said throughout the discussions on this subject that it would be better to let the local legislatures per-

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form their duty: and this result had proved to be correct, notwithstanding the repeated precautions of the noble Lord to the contrary. His noble Friend now said that the Crown colonies had neither the power nor the inclination to perform their duty, and follow the example set them by the chartered colonies. If his noble Friend was not strictly accurate as to what he said with regard to the proceedings of the legislatures of the chartered colonies, he would also state that he would not be more accurate as to the proceedings of the legislatures of the Crown colonies. Exactly the same ground applied to the Crown colonies as to the chartered colonies. Similar instructions to those sent out to the chartered colonies had been forwarded to the Crown colonies, and he had no doubt they would be acted upon by the local authorities and legislatures in the same spirit in the latter case as in the former. His noble Friend said, that the Legislatures of the Crown colonies were of somewhat an anomalous character, and that they could not deal with the subject as the legislatures of the chartered colonies. The fact, however, was, that although the legislative bodies in the Crown colonies did not possess powers to the same extent as those in the chartered colonies, still they were independent legislatures. His noble Friend said, that in the Crown colonies, the, Governor in council corresponded to the executive or legislative council in the other colonies. It was true that the legislature was carried on by the governor and council, or the Court of Policy as it was called in Guiana and other places, but this body possessed all the power of legislation for the internal affairs of the colony, for the levying local taxes and other purposes, as much as the legislative bodies in the chartered colonies. He repeated, this body in the Crown colonies exercised the functions he had stated, and carried on all the legislation, and controlled the taxation, and superintended the law-making for the colony. This legislature, however, was restricted in one respect; it was subject to the approbation of the Queen in Council, in the same degree, and in a similar manner as the acts of the Legislative Assemblies of the chartered colonies required that sanction to become laws. The legislatures of the Crown colonies, however, were as competent to legislate on this subject as the legislatures
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of the chartered colonies, as they had nearly the same powers of internal legislation. He appealed, then, to any noble Lord whether it were expedient under these circumstances to interfere by means of an order of the Queen in Council, and whether it would not be more wise and prudent that the same forbearance and moderation that was pursued towards the chartered colonies, should also be followed with regard to the legislatures of the Crown colonies. He believed, that noble Lords would agree with him, that that right and power which the Queen possessed over the acts and proceedings of the legislatures of the colonies, should only be adopted and acted on in cases of necessity, and in such cases where Parliament would interfere with its authority. He thought, that this argument must have its due weight; that the acts of the Legislatures of the Crown colonies were only subject to the approbation of the Queen in Council, as was the case with the laws of the chartered colonies; and they did not come within any act of authority of any other body. He was happy in being able to state, that in fact the Legislatures of the Crown colonies had followed the example set them by the Legislatures of the chartered colonies. In addition to the information which had been alluded to by the noble Lord, as having been received from Jamaica, he could also state, that similar satisfactory accounts had lately been received from Grenada, and also from the Bahamas, which had arrived within the last few days; and he had good reason to believe, that within a short time from the dates of his communications, measures would be originated in these colonies similar to those that had been carried in other chartered colonies. In addition, however, to this, he was happy in being able to state, that in some of the Crown colonies the Governors intended to submit to the legislative bodies similar acts to those which had been carried in other places, and no doubt was entertained of their success. This had arisen in consequence of the instructions sent out to the Governors of the colonies. He was happy to find, that in the Crown colonies the Legislatures did not find themselves more fettered than in the chartered colonies. Special letters had been sent out to the Governors of the various colonies, stating that the home Government was anxious to

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press on the attention of the Governors and the Legislatures of the Crown colonies the question of the termination of the system of negro apprenticeship. He would now shortly proceed to state what had occurred in some of the Crown colonies. In Trinidad the legislative body had been convened for the purpose of taking the subject into consideration, and on the day the mail came away, a message was sent from the Governor to the legislative body, and it was ordered to be taken into consideration the day after the mail came away. From St. Lucia information had been received, that the Governor intended to propose a measure to the Council, and no doubt was felt as to its receiving the sanction of that body. Again, in Guiana a similar proceeding had taken place; although no official account had been received of this, still within the last fortnight letters had been received from some most respectable owners of property in that colony, in which it was stated, that the Governor had submitted the subject to the consideration of the Court of Policy, and no doubt whatever was entertained as to the body sanctioning a plan for the termination of the system of negro apprenticeship. The probability was, that before the present period, all the Legislatures of the Crown colonies would have accomplished the anxious desires of the people of this country, and followed the example set them by the chartered colonies. From Mauritius there had not been time to obtain any certain information, in consequence of its distance; but the same legislative authority existed in that colony, as in the Crown colonies in the West Indies, and he had no reason to doubt, that the advice of the Government of this country, embodied in a recommendation from the Governor, would be received in the same manner as in other places. Indeed, he could not help saying, that the subject had attracted so much attention in this country, that it must command the serious consideration of the colonies. He should have observed, that there was this peculiarity in the Mauritius from the other colonies, that the termination of the apprenticeship system of the non-predials was six months later than in other places; that was, that it commenced on the 1st of February, instead of the 1st of August. He entertained no doubt in his own mind, that in this island the result would be that
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which they anxiously desired; but in the three great Crown colonies in the West Indies, he had not the slightest doubt that two out of the three would at once accomplish the work, and most probably the example would be followed by the third. By this means, the question would be settled in a most satisfactory manner, and it would render unnecessary the painful alternative. He did not know, that he had anything more to state, as all that he presumed that his noble Friend required, was a simple statement of the affairs of the colonies at present. He would then only add, that he had little doubt that before the next Session his noble Friend would see a complete termination of the apprenticeship system in all the colonies.
Lord Broughamhad seen the despatch addressed to the Mauritius, and he begged to ask his noble Friend, whether he did not know, that unless some special instructions were given to the Crown colonies, that all the Court of Policy could do, was to pass an act, which, on coming to this country, should receive the Royal assent and approval, and that without which assent and approval, it would not be binding on the colony. Was not this also the state of things as to St. Lucia?
Lord Glenelgsaid, that his noble and learned Friend inquired whether any specific directions had been sent out to the Crown colonies? He (Lord Glenelg) referred his noble and learned Friend to the despatches before the House. He could not but think, that the best proof as to the result of those instructions was, that they were likely to be carried into effect at the earliest opportunity.
Lord Ashburtonremarked, that supposing the Governor of the Mauritius followed up the instructions sent out to him, had the Governor power to give effect to the acts in accordance with those instructions, without their first being sent home for approval?
Lord Broughamwas surprised and gratified at the communication that had been made by his noble Friend. He entertained some doubts, however, whether the Governor and Council of the Mauritius and other Crown colonies, without the direct interposition of the Crown could pass such a law as would be requisite. The situation of these Crown colonies was very different from that of the chartered colonies. He would, therefore, recommend that special despatches should be sent out

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to each of these colonies, authorizing th Governor in taking the necessary steps.
Lord Glenelgthought, that it would turn out that the doubt could easily he resolved, but there could be no possible objection to send out such despatches as had been suggested by his noble Friend.
Lord Broughamsaid, it was most satisfactory to him to hear the determination of his noble Friend, and he would suggest, that the despatch ought to be accompanied by an order in council, which the Governor should be enabled to use if the spurious Legislatures of the Crown colonies should refuse to act. No harm could result from such an order, and it would save five months of the continuance of the existing evil, and he trusted his noble Friend would receive the suggestion in the spirit in which it was made. He had only one observation to make on the matter, seeing the satisfactory conclusion which had been arrived at. His noble Friend had spoken to-night in a better spirit than when this question was previously under discussion, because his noble Friend had now the advantage of the news which had been received to-day. Before to-night his noble Friend had said "You are wrong, and we are sanguine." His noble Friend had flattered himself that all these results had been effected by the course of the Government, but he maintained, that but for the interference of this country by the friends of emancipation and of liberty, there would not to-day have been received such a despatch as had arrived from the governor of Jamaica—a despatch which had been the subject of so much triumph and congratulation on the part of his noble Friend. But it should be remembered, that his noble Friend's despatch was dated the 16th of April, while all the agitation and discussion out of doors and in that House had occurred in the previous months of February and March. These facts were pointed at, both by the Governor of Jamaica and the Governor of Barbadoes in their respective addresses to their Houses of Assembly. The latter admitted, that he was glad to find that the labour of good and wise men who had taken a part in the agitation of the question in this country had not been thrown away. He gave honour to those men who had been the objects of calumny which they regarded not, of suspicion which they de-
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spised, of vituperation which they allowed to pass by them as they would any other storm of empty air that they needed not; he gave to such men as Joseph Sturge, James Scoble, Josiah Conder, William Allen, and George Thompson, with whom he had been united as a most humble but most zealous coadjutor, the glory of that day, being as thoroughly persuaded as he was of his own existence, that but for their efforts, that day would not have dawned upon them. He hoped that every event would answer the expectation of his noble Friend, and he hoped particular care would be taken, that those expectations of emancipation in the Mauritius should not be frustrated. He knew that something more remained; a jealous, a constantly vigilant eye must be kept over those very selfsame assemblies, whether of full or partial legislative authority, which existed in our various colonies. For if they found them under the name of police regulations, a vagrant act, a poor law bill, or of any other of the devices which he knew their ingenuity and pertinacity full well enough to be apprehensive, they would soon attempt to pass it, as he had already seen, attempts were made by means of a vagrant act to perpetuate slavery under another name, by the help of the magistrate and the master, whose power had died a natural death; and if, under associations of men armed with power and influence, their Lordships saw any attempt to revive under another name and under false pretences that slavery which the law would not suffer to exist under as odious and disgusting appellation any longer—if any such things were attempted, he should not be wanting in the discharge of his duty to expose the violators by evasion, and therefore the worst, because the fraudulent violators of the law. Had not their Lordships seen the circular of the Messrs. Huson, who had held themselves forth to the public as accomplished man-merchants, and who had bragged that in two years they could furnish to the Mauritius 5,000 Hill Coolies at 10 l. a-head, including passage-money, provision, water, and all other stores, and an advance of six months' wages and clothing, those wages being five rupees, or about 10 s. a-month, while the wages of a day-labourer in that country was, instead of 3d. or 4d. a-day, from 3s. to 4s. a-day? Those poor and ignorant creatures the Hill Coolies were smuggled away under

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the idea that the Mauritius to which they were going, was a village belonging to the East-India Company, and this was done at the very time, be it marked, that the apprenticeship system was abolished, or about to be abolished. He hoped, that before this session of Parliament closed an entire prohibition of the traffic in Hill Coolies would be passed. He had seen an account of a vessel having carried over 150 Hill Coolies, and, as a brag, it was said that only 10 died in the vessel during the voyage of four months—that was to say, a mortality of 1 in l5, which was a' most hideous and frightful mortality, and an additional reason, if any were wanting, why that abominable traffic should be stopped.
Lord Glenelgdenied, that he had said anything to detract in any way from the merits of the persons engaged in advocating the cause alluded to by his noble Friend. He did not intend to arrogate to the Government more credit than he really thought that it deserved for the course they had taken on this subject; he would not, however, dwell on it, He believed, that all would agree in the policy that in all the colonies all the non-predials should be under one system, and that as nearly as possible the apprenticeship system should terminate at the same period. With respect to the letters which he had sent out to the West Indies on the subject of terminating the period of the apprenticeship of the negroes in the colonies, he begged to inform his noble Friend, that he would find in the printed papers on the table one dated so far back as September last. He repeated, that he did not intend to deteriorate from the claims of the gentlemen alluded to by the noble Lord, and he was certainly far from denying, that the strong opinion of the people of this country on this subject had bad a powerful effect on the conduct of the West-Indian Legislatures.
Lord Broughamsaid, that he had one observation to make to their Lordships in reference to the slave trade being carried on by Russian ships. He had recently received a letter from a person in Havannah, who stated, that on the 13th of March a Russian vessel had landed 354 slaves in that colony, and that four other vessels of a similar character were daily expected to arrive. He merely mentioned this to show the extent to which this
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dreadful traffic was carried on under the flag of Russia.
Motion withdrawn.

PLURALITIES.
The House went into committee on the Benefices Pluralities Bill.
On Clause 4,
Lord Wharncliffesaid, he could not but think, that this bill, like some of the reforms proposed in the institutions of this country, went far beyond the necessity of the case. Another objection he had to the bill was, that it began at the wrong end, for before they came to deal with the matters affected by this bill, they ought to endeavour to make the income of every clergyman, sufficient to enable him to live in a respectable manner. In many parts of the north, and particularly in the manufacturing districts, many of the livings were so starved, that it would be impossible to get clergymen to undertake the duties of such parishes, without increasing their incomes from some other source. The clause proposed, that a radius of ten miles should be the limitation for the holding of two benefices; he conceived that to be a much worse arrangement than a clergyman being allowed to hold two livings in a radius of forty miles, because in the latter case he would employ a curate to attend to one of them, which perhaps he would not do in the former case. He proposed an amendment confining the operation of the clause, to livings above the yearly value of 100 l.
The Archbishop of Canterburycould not concur in the amendment. He did not think, that it would be wise to interfere with the principle upon which the bill was founded, and he trusted, that a remedy would be found for the grievance to which the noble Lord had directed their Lordships attention, without adopting the amendment proposed. The subject had been fully considered by the commissioners, and when their recommendations were carried into effect, the evil would, he trusted, be effectually removed. He hoped that the number of cases to which the amendment would apply was not great, and he was unwilling that the principle of the measure should be broken through. He did full justice to the motives of the noble Lord who had proposed the amendment, and from his respects for those motives he regretted he was obliged to oppose it.
Amendment negatived without a division.
Lord Portmanthen moved, that the words "situate within the distance of ten statute miles from" be omitted, and the words "contiguous to" inserted in their place. By that amendment they would arrive at the nearest possible point to a final declaration, that no pluralities should exist at all, and render the principle of the bill clear and intelligible. It was perhaps impossible to effect the entire abolition of pluralities at present, but if the amendment he had proposed were adopted, they would arrive at the nearest point to an entire abolition, and prevent the holding of benefices in plurality in all cases except those where the incumbent would be able to give to both parishes his personal superintendence. He considered the point to which he had called their attention of so much importance, that he should take the sense of the House upon it.
The Archbishop of Canterburysaid, that the clause on which the amendment had been moved, had been agreed to after mature deliberation—first by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, and then by the assembled Bishops, and there was no difference of opinion on the subject. It was agreed, that in framing the clause, they had adopted the just medium between the two extremes, and taken a fair position between those who contended for the abolition of plurality and those who entertained a directly opposite opinion. He considered that the amendment would operate injuriously, and that it would have the effect of reducing the number of curates so much, that young men would be admitted at once to the care of large parishes which required an experienced pastor. He admitted, that pluralities did require restriction; but he believed the majority of those who were best qualified to give a sound opinion on the subject, were of opinion that the restriction proposed by the bill went too far. He could not consent to the amendment of the noble Lord.
Lord Wynfordconsidered, that there should be no alteration in the law on this subject, unless to put an end entirely to pluralities. The most rev. prelate had admitted, that the bill would not put an end to pluralities, and the measure, therefore, was framed on no definite or intelligible principle, for no person could possibly understand why there should be any
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alteration in the law, unless that alteration proceeded upon the principle contained in the amendment which had been moved by the noble Lord. He would submit to their Lordships, that the only intelligible principle on which to found a measure for restraining the holding of benefices in plurality was, to prevent the holding of two livings by any one individual, unless when the parishes were contiguous.
The Earl of Harrowbywas understood to say, that he agreed with those who thought, that the bill was founded on no intelligible or definite principle. He considered the abolition of pluralities desirable, but that could only be effected by a new distribution of Church property, or by the State furnishing a sum sufficient to make the small livings adequate to support a resident clergyman. He advised their Lordships to adopt the bill, which had been twice before the Legislature, and had now come up from the other House as an experimental measure.
The Bishop of Lincolnsaid, that the effect of the clause as it stood would be to diminish the number of pluralities by one-half. He concurred in the suggestion as to the propriety of taking the bill as an experimental measure.
The Bishop of Salisburyobjected to the amendment, under which, he said, two livings might be held together, where, though the livings were contiguous, the distance between church and church would be greater than it could be, if the clause as it stood were adopted.
The Bishop of Glocestersupported the original clause. If it passed, all but thirty of the present pluralities in the see of Glocester would be illegalised, and to those thirty no material objection could be made.
Lord Hathertonthought the bill objectionable on account of the extent to which it appeared to sanction the principle of pluralities, and supported the amendment, because it would tend to establish a wholesome system of superintendence on the part of the incumbent over his flock.
The Committee divided on the amendment—Contents 9; Not Contents 50; Majority 41.
Clause agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
And the House resumed.