Lords Sitting of 2 April 1838

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a third time:—Mutiny; and Marine Mutiny.
Petitions presented. By the Earl of BANDON, from a place in the Diocese of Ross, against any system of National Education which does not permit the general use of the Holy Scriptures; and from Ahenagh (Cork), for the settlement of the Tithe system.—By Earl GREY, from Stockton-on-Tees, Newcastle, and a number of other places, by the Bishop of CHESTER, from several Congregations in Chester, and other places within his Diocese, by the Marquess of SLIGO, from Hull, and other places in Yorkshire, from Suddleton, and other places in Lancashire, from nearly twenty Dissenting (including four Roman Catholic) Congregations in Manchester, and from Westport, in the county of Mayo, by the Earl of ALBEMARLE, from a Congregation in Hereford, and a parish in Suffolk, by the Bishop of EXETER, from two Congregations in the city of London, by the bishop of RIPON, from several Congregations in Ripon and its vicinity, for the abolition of Negro Apprenticeship.—By the Earl of ALBEMARLE, from Tavistock, and by Lord FOLEY, from Chichester, for a reduction of the rate of Postage.—By the Bishop of ELY, from Tynemouth, against Church Pluralities.—By the Earl of STANHOPE, from Bradford, and other places in Yorkshire, for an alteration of the New Poor-law.

ABOLITION OF SLAVERY. EXPLANATION.
The Marquess of Sligorose to state, that he had received a letter from a noble and learned Lord, (Lord Brougham) who took a very prominent part in the discussion of the Abolition of Slavery, expressing his great annoyance at the falsehoods which had appeared respecting him in the morning newspapers, and more particularly in the Courier, and requesting him (Lord Sligo) to take an opportunity of contradicting them in his place in that House. Not being intimately acquainted with the question, he thought he could not do better than read an extract from the noble Lord's letter. The noble and learned Lord said:—
"I never took any part at all in the plan, except to agree to it, as all the rest of the Cabinet did, among whom there never was the least difference, that I ever heard of, much less any division. We thought that some such state of
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transition was necessary, as I have constantly said, and said every time the subject has been debated; and when I found we had been deceived, as we also were about the necessity of a compensation, I did not hesitate an hour to take the opposite course. I rely, therefore, upon your losing not an hour in making this statement in your place in the House of Lords to set right the matter so much mis-stated."
On receipt of this letter, he wrote to the noble Lord (the Secretary at War) stating his intention to comply with the request it contained, and from that noble Lord he received a reply, which he deemed it his duty also to read to their Lordships. It was as follows:—
"My dear Lord,—I lose no time in answering your letter of to-day, which I have just received.
"Not having seen the article in the Courier to which you allude, I have no remarks to make upon it. With respect to what I myself said in the House of Commons, I do not perceive that it is in the slightest degree contradicted by the extract you have sent me from Lord Brougham's letter, but, on the contrary, it is distinctly confirmed by it.
"I said nothing of any division in the Cabinet, of which, not having been a member of it, I probably should not have been aware, and which, if I had known it, I should not have thought myself at liberty to mention. The statement I made was simply this—That several members of the Cabinet were in the first instance in favour of giving entire freedom to the slave at once; that a plan for doing so was submitted by the Secretary of State to the West Indian body, but, being strongly objected to by them, the Government determined that it would be unsafe to proceed in defiance of their opposition; that I combated their decision, but that I found all my efforts to obtain its reconsideration in vain, in a great measure owing to the fact that the opinion of Lord Brougham was adverse to me, and that his opinion naturally carried with it an authority which outweighed any arguments that I could advance.
"Such, in substance, was the statement which I made in order to enforce my argument that Lord Brougham, in common with the leading advocates of the abolition of the system of apprenticeship, were themselves parties to its establishment.
"I am, my dear Lord, yours faithfully,
"HOWICK."
"War Office, April 2."
Having read these extracts, he did not feel called upon to occupy their Lordships' attention any longer on the subject.
The Earl of Riponsaid, that having been in the Cabinet at the time, he did not wish to make any observations directly bearing on the point in question. This much, how-

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ever, he would say, that what had been represented—most inaccurately no doubt, and quite contrary to what had fallen from his noble Friend in the other House—was certainly by no means consistent with the facts as now explained. His noble Friend not having been a member of the Cabinet at the time, could not be acquainted with the circumstances, and if he had been, he would have felt bound not to reveal them.
Earl Greywas understood to say, that he felt the inconvenience of introducing discussions of a personal nature in the absence of the persons to whom they related. He was aware that his noble and learned Friend, who was not then present, had been more closely pressed upon the subject of the abolition of slavery than any one else, but he knew of no differences in the Cabinet; he was not at all aware of any division on the subject. For himself, he confessed that, anxious as he had been for the total abolition of slavery, and finding that the time had arrived, when it must be abolished, still he did look with great apprehension and anxiety to the consequences of that measure, and therefore he had been anxious also that it should be accompanied by some intermediate measure to prepare the negroes for that state of freedom, which he and his colleagues were agreed in thinking they ought to possess, and he had consequently done every thing in his power to promote the measure as it ultimately passed. A noble Earl opposite had said that all the inconveniences and difficulties at present existing in connexion with this subject were owing to the defective manner in which the Emancipation Bill itself, had been concocted. He could only say, that every care had been taken in its construction, and he was not aware of the errors and imperfections which were spoken of. He felt, indeed, that there were very great causes of complaint as to the conduct of the Jamaica Assembly, and in performing a Ministerial duty as a Peer of Parliament—that was in presenting petitions intrusted to him for immediate abolition—he felt bound to say, that although all the measures had not been taken for the benefit of the slaves which the Imperial Parliament had a right to expect, yet he was of opinion that it was not just or expedient to proceed at that moment to the total abolition of the present system. He would not then detain their Lordships by stating the reasons which had been fully expres-
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sed there and elsewhere in favour of that course; he would only say, that he agreed in those reasons, and that especially he concurred in the view taken by the noble Duke opposite (Wellington) on that subject. He yielded to no man in his anxiety to put an end to the degrading system of human slavery; and he derived great comfort from reflecting that during the first Administration with which he had been connected, a total end had been put to the African slave trade—an object which, in the plenitude of his power, Mr. Pitt had never been able to effect; and that, in the last administration with which he had been connected, slavery itself had been abolished. The intermediate state of apprenticeship was intended to fit the slaves for freedom, and whilst he regretted that no step had been taken by the Colonial Assembly to forward the views of Parliament he thought it much more to the advantage of the negroes to take measures to ameliorate their present condition, and to enforce those steps which were necessary to prepare them for a state of full freedom, than to proceed at once to total abolition, which might be attended with fearful consequences.
Subject dropped.

THE ACHILL MISSIONARY HERALD.
The Earl of Wicklowrose to call the attention of the House, pursuant to notice, to the case between the Rev. Mr. Nangle and the Post-office authorities, relative to the non-transmission of the Achill Missionary Herald, The complainant was, he observed, known individually as well as by name to many of their Lordships, he having been last year examined as a witness before the Irish Education Committee; and he felt assured, that no difference of opinion would exist in their Lordships' minds with regard to the zeal, honesty, and good intentions of the rev. Gentleman, however, they might disagree as to his prudence. Mr. Nangle had found the people in a remote district at the West of Ireland in a state of lamentable ignorance, and had done his utmost to promote amongst them the dissemination of Christian knowledge, and the progress of civilization. In order to forward this work, he became the editor of a public newspaper, which advocated his religious opinions, while, at the same time, it contained all the general miscellaneous matter of an ordinary newspaper. For eight

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months, this publication was allowed, without dispute, to pass through the Post-office without charge. No one dreamed of its being looked on in any other light than that of a regular newspaper, until at the expiration of that period, the rev. Gentleman received a letter from Mr. Godby, the Secretary to the Irish Post-office, informing him, that according to the 32nd section of the 1st of Victoria, c. 34, it could not be legally forwarded free of charge through the Post-office; and that it would be thenceforth charged the full rate of postage. Mr. Nangle had no means of knowing whether it was Mr. Godby himself, who put this construction on the Act of Parliament, or whether he had so interpreted it by the instructions of the noble Lord opposite (Lord Lichfield). Mr. Nangle communicated upon the subject with that noble Lord, and represented to him, that his newspaper had been clearly recognized by the Stamp-office; that he had purchased a quantity of stamped paper upon the faith of that recognition; and that this sudden and arbitrary order affected him, therefore, most injuriously; that he had been unable to discover anything in the Act of Parliament, to exclude his publication from the privilege of ordinary newspapers; that he was placed in most embarrassing circumstances between the Stamp-office on the one hand, the solicitor of which told him, that he would subject himself to heavy penalties if he published otherwise than on stamped paper, and the Post-office on the other, which disputed its claim to the character of a newspaper, and the privilege annexed to such stamped publications; and, finally, he begged of the noble Lord at least to allow the privilege of free transmission to continue until a decision should be come to upon the memorial which he had sent in to the Lords of the Treasury. The answer of the noble Lord was, that he could not comply with this request. He hoped, therefore, in the first place, that the noble Earl would allow copies of the correspondence which had taken place between the Post-office authorities and Mr. Nangle to be laid before their Lordships; and he trusted, also, that he should hear from what quarter the objections to Mr. Nangle's publication proceeded. He could not help suspecting, that they came from persons who had long opposed that gentleman in his ministerial duties, and he should not be
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surprised at finding that they originated with an individual illegally calling himself Archbishop of Tuam, who was a great patron of her Majesty's Government. With respect to the conduct of the Post-office towards Mr. Nangle, it was, to say the least of it, extremely harsh. The Act of Parliament under which they had acted, was never meant to establish a censorship over the press, which would be set up, if the Post-office and the Treasury, under the Act 1 Victoria, c. 34, s. 32, had the power to decide on the character of any publication. Under that act, whenever a question arose as to the fact of a publication being a newspaper or not, the Postmaster-General, in concurrence with the Lords of the Treasury, was to decide, and their decision was to be final. Here, then, was power given to the Lords of the Treasury, combining with the Postmaster-General, to suppress any publication; for he need not tell their Lordships, that unless a newspaper had the privilege of a free transmission through the post, it could not maintain itself. He hoped, when this case came to the knowledge of the press, that they would take up the matter, and put a stop to such arbitrary proceedings. The noble Earl concluded by moving for copies of the correspondence between Mr. Nangle and the Post-office.
The Earl of Lichfieldsaid, that before he entered into an explanation of the circumstances of this case, he would say one word with respect to the motives by which the noble Earl had been pleased to suspect him to have been actuated in his correspondence with Mr. Nangle, and he should dismiss the imputation simply with the bare assertion that he was perfectly incapable of being influenced by such considerations; and he must, at the same time, say that he never listened to similar insinuations without being convinced that they could only be entertained in the minds of those who, under similar circumstances, would act in the same way themselves. With regard to the motion of the noble Earl, as the matter was now set at rest, and as it had terminated in accordance with the noble Earl's views, perhaps the noble Earl would not press his motion, as, although there was no objection to the production of the papers, it would embarrass the department in which they would have to be prepared. With respect to the Achill Herald, the facts of the case

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were these:—That paper early in March came for the first time into the London Post-office, and the moment it passed through the Inland-office, the superintendent of that department thought it his duty to charge postage upon it. Of course the Post-office received complaints of this, but a question having been raised as to the character of the paper, he had no power, as Postmaster-General under the 1st of Victoria, cap: 34, sec. 32, to direct that it should pass free of postage until the Lords of the Treasury had pronounced their opinion. He would observe that there were great doubts about the character of the Achill Herald. It contained no news, and no political remarks, and was in fact entirely of a polemical character. However, he had submitted it to the Treasury, and on Saturday the Board gave it as their opinion that it should be considered as a newspaper, and be allowed to pass postage free.
The Earl of Wicklowremarked, that as the noble Earl had said there was not the slightest objection to the production of these papers, and as they were very short, and their production would lead to very little expense, he should wish to see them laid on the table. He did not wish to see a bad precedent established. The noble Earl had the power of suspending the enforcement of the order charging the Achill Herald with postage, ["No, no."]. Then, if the noble Earl had not that power, he had been guilty of a dereliction of duty in allowing the Achill Herald to be sent through the post at all.
The Earl of Lichfieldstated, that he had rested the defence of the Post-office on this ground, that till it passed through the London office it was not known that such a paper was in existence, and he had written to Mr. Godby to know under what authority it had ever been transmitted through the post free of postage. He could not think that Mr. Nangle had been misled by the Office of Stamps and Taxes, as he held in his hand a letter containing an answer, which was in accordance with the kind of answer generally sent to an application for information whether printing on stamped paper would insure what was printed passing postage free. This letter stated that the party would save himself much disappointment and vexation if he first asked himself whether his projected publication possessed the character of a newspaper, for
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that if it did not, it would be charged with postage, and he had no doubt that an answer to that effect was given to Mr. Nangle. He (the Earl of Lichfield) had issued the notice which the noble Earl opposite had read, advising that the course therein pointed out would be much better to be pursued in future, and that it would prevent the recurrence of these difficulties.
The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, it appeared that Mr. Nangle lived in some part of Connaught, in the west of Ireland, and the Postmaster-General had quoted a statement he had received within the last few days from the Stamp-office in London. But that statement could not refer to the case, for the noble Earl behind him (the Earl of Wicklow) had stated, that this gentleman had had communication with the Stamp-office in Dublin, and had been informed by the authorities there that there was not a doubt that his publication was a newspaper, and therefore liable to a stamp. There could not be a doubt upon the facts that appeared at present that this gentleman had been very ill-used, for being stamped, the paper ought to have been free of postage, and it was hard treatment that his paper should be suddenly stopped on the authority of another office in London. He thought it would be only fair, that after this injustice, arising from the unfortunate accident of one of the offices, some compensation should be afforded to this gentleman.
The Marquess of Sligothought, that some doubt still existed whether or not this publication was a newspaper or a controversial publication; at all events, the island was his property, and he could state that there could not be more than three readers, as the population were poor occupants of cabins.
The Earl of Haddingtonbore testimony to the excellent and disinterested character of Mr. Nangle, who was a clergyman of the Church of England, and a missionary to this island of Achill. The object of the work in question was not only to give the people inhabiting that district religious instruction, but also to better their general condition. He did not doubt but that the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Lichfield) had used his best discretion in the matter, but at the same time he thought that, considering the paper had circulated a considerable time free from postage, and as the noble Earl had never, as it seemed, him-

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self entertained any great doubt that the publication was a newspaper, it would have been much better to have allowed it, without interference, to circulate free for a week or two longer until the noble Earl had obtained the final judgment of the Treasury. He fully concurred with the noble Duke near him, that this party was entitled to some compensation.
Lord Hollandthought, the opinion as to the conduct of his noble Friend, the Postmaster-General, expressed by the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Haddington) was very different from that which ought to proceed from a legislator; for the opinion of the noble Earl came shortly to this—that he recommended his noble Friend to break the law by acting in contravention of the Act of Parliament which had been alluded to. [The Earl of Haddington: I made no such recommendation.]
Motion agreed to.