Lords Sitting of 16 March 1837

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By the Duke of RICHMOND, from the Licensed Victuallers of Brighton, for a Revision of the Laws imposing liabilities for the loss of Property of Persons at their Houses; and from White-church, for some Legislative Enactment for the Relief of unemployed Irish Labourers.—By Lord WYNFORD, from Stapleton, against forming Unions in that district.—By several Noble LORDS, from various places, against the Abolition of Church-rates.—By Lords STRAFFORD, PORTMAN, BROUGHAM, the Earls of MINTO, BURLINGTON, Viscount MELBOURNE, and the Duke of RICHMOND, from various places, for the Abolition of Church-rates.

PETITIONS FOR CHURCH-RATES.
Lord Wyndfordhaving presented a petition from a parish in Cumberland against the New Poor-law Act,
The Bishop of Llandaffhoped the House would forgive him for occupying its attention for a few minutes; but he could not help expressing his surprise at a remark from the noble and learned Lord yesterday, that the number of petitions presented in favour of the abolition of Church-rates was greater than the number which had been presented against this measure; and that, even if that were not allowed, the number of signatures attached to the former would far exceed the number attached to the latter.
Lord Brougham, said that he might set the rev. Prelate at ease on that point at once, by informing him that he was labouring under an entire mistake, because what he had stated was just the reverse of that which was now imputed to him. He had said that the number of petitions against the abolition of Church-rates no doubt greatly exceeded the number in favour of the abolition, but that the number of signatures attached to the petitions in favour of the abolition very much exceeded the number of those attached to the petitions against it.
The Bishop of Llandafffelt obliged to the noble and learned Lord for setting him right in that respect.
Lord Brougham:Nor was it yesterday I said so, but some time before; so that you are wrong there also.
The Bishop of Llandaffwas prepared to contend that the signatures of persons who did not pay Church-rates did not merit much regard. The grievance did not fall upon them, but upon those who paid the Church-rates, therefore it was but fair to throw out of the consideration of the petitioners all the non-rate-payers. Undoubtedly the House could not analyse the petitions in that way, but he wished, for the sake of the general impression that might be made on the public, that the distinction he had suggested should be observed. With regard to the petitioners against the abolition of Church-rates, that observation was not applicable, because there the non-rate-payers were most entitled to be heard, inasmuch as they would be most interested if the Church-rates were abolished. The non-rate-payers, therefore, who became petitioners against the abolition of Church-rates, and especially the poor, merited the attention of their Lordships. As to the others, they might be divided into two classes, and those alone upon whom the grievance fell were entitled to attention. It might be said that a person had a right to come to their Lordships' House, not to complain of an injury or a personal grievance, but to complain of a national grievance. If that were so, they could only come to their Lordships in the character of advisers, and so far they might be entitled to be heard. As a matter of grievance, he was sure that the distinction made in favour of justice the noble and learned Lord would readily admit. There were petitions of that character presented by a right rev. Friend of his from labourers in Devonshire, praying that they might not be deprived of the privileges they now enjoyed. It was said by his right rev. Friend, that that petition was attempted to be counteracted by a wealthy individual. The number of signatures to a petition was but an indifferent test for the extent of the grievance of which the petitioners complained. In conclusion he would say, that under the disapprobation which had been expressed by the petitioners against the Church-rates, there was a far more important principle—the petitioners objected to Christianity
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being recognised or supported by the State. However that might be coloured over, it was at the bottom of what was recommended and desired; and it was for their Lordships to consider whether they would give countenance to a proposition of that nature, or whether they would not openly avow that their determination was not to consent to any measure that had for its object the prevention of Christianity being protected by the State. He was sure that their Lordships would sooner surrender their birth-rights than give up that union which had existed for a thousand years. The right rev. Prelate then presented several petitions from different parts of Wales against the abolition of Church-rates.
Viscount Melbournecould not agree with the distinction drawn by the right rev. Prelate between the classes of petitioners, for in the well-being and the welfare of Christianity all had an equal interest and an equal interest also in the settlement of this question on the principles which would promote the peace and welfare of the country. He therefore could by no means acquiesce in the distinction drawn by the right rev. Prelate between the classes of petitioners. All had an equal right to lay their opinions before their Lordships' House as to the measures which they thought necessary to be adopted by the Legislature, or which were under the consideration of the Legislature. But he (Lord Melbourne) was still more unwilling to acquiesce in the statement with which the right rev. Prelate concluded his speech. The right rev. Prelate had said that if the prayers of the petitioners were acceded to, Christianity would not be any longer recognised as the religion of the country. He begged leave to protest against such an imputation being cast upon those who had petitioned their Lordships' House, and he felt sorry that it had come from a quarter which he respected.
The Bishop of Llandaffsaid, that he did not intend to charge the petitioners with a wish that Christianity should not prevail, or that it should not be generally received as the religion of the country; but he contended, that if the prayers of the petitioners were acceded to, they would lead to the separation of Christianity from the Government of the country. If those prayers were acceded to, then it would go forth that the Government regarded religion with indifference, and as a matter of

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no concern. The legitimate inference to be drawn from the prayer of the petitioners was, not that they wished to disparage religion, but that they contemplated objects which their Lordships ought never to consent to.
Lord Broughamsaid, that in all the petitions he had presented—and he believed he had presented the greater number in favour of the abolition of Church-rates—the grounds put forward for their abolition were religious, and not political. The right rev. Prelate has most justly said in the admission with which he had closed his speech, that he did not mean to impute any lukewarmness on the subject of religion to Dissenters, and certainly if he had done so he would have committed a very great error. It was on the ground that they considered the rate injurious to the interests of religion, as well as oppressive to them individually, and hard upon them conscientiously, that the great bulk of the prayers of the petitions were founded. He entirely agreed with his noble Friend (Lord Melbourne) that whether they had an interest or not in the question, they had a right to come to the House and make known their sentiments and their wishes. As to persons of a certain description not paying rates, or not being of that class which might be supposed to be best capable of entering into the discussion of high and difficult points of policy, whether the class of persons who had signed the petition which the right rev. Prelate had presented were qualified by their habits to discuss questions of a high and difficult nature he really would not take on himself to say. He was not disposed to pronounce them incapable of discussing those questions, but it did happen that a considerable majority of those who had given their consent to the petition gave it, not by signing their names, but by affixing crosses, commonly called their marks.
The Bishop of Llandaffhad not denied the right of the lowest members of the community, not only to state their grievances, but to give their opinion as to the policy of any public measure. He only stated that the petitions of those who had paid no rates came from those who suffered no grievance, and that therefore they were not entitled to great consideration.
Petition laid on the table.

THE CANADAS.
The Earl of Riponwished to put a question to his noble
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Friend, (Lord Glenelg) on a subject which appeared to him of considerable importance. Their Lordships would recollect that in the commencement of the present Session, his Majesty, in his speech read by his Majesty's Commissioners, called the attention of Parliament to the State of affairs in Lower Canada. Since that time, various documents had been laid on the table of the House; and it appeared by the votes of the other House of Parliament, that certain resolutions had been submitted to the consideration of that branch of the legislature, he presumed explanatory of the views of his Majesty's Government on the subject, and preparatory to the introduction of some legislative measure applicable to the exigencies of the case. The question which he had to put to his noble Friend was, therefore, this—What was the mode in which it was the intention of the Government to bring the subject under the notice of this House?—whether it was intended to proceed by way of resolution, or merely to invite their Lordships to consider any specific law or measure which might be sent up from the other House of Parliament? He did not purpose to avail himself of this opportunity to say anything that could cause the slightest discussion on this most important and difficult subject, and he should be sorry to say anything that could in the least embarrass the proceedings of Government or of Parliament in reference to it; but having himself had not a little to do with the relations between this country and Canada, and having applied considerable attention to all its details, he might be excused if he felt some anxiety to know what course his Majesty's Government intended to propose. It was obvious there were two modes which might be adopted. Either the House of Commons, having first approved the resolutions laid before them should send them to their Lordships to ask their assent to them, or, having passed those resolutions, they should pass a Bill, and send that Bill up to this House. He should be disposed to think, prima facie, that there might be considerable advantage in adopting the first of these courses; because, looking at the nature of the question itself—looking at the mode in which it affected or might affect an independent Legislature in another part of his Majesty's dominions—looking also at the solemn manner in which the attention of the Legis-

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lature here had been called to it, it might be expected that those interested in this question on the other side of the Atlantic would be disposed to attach great importance to resolutions proposed by one House of Parliament, and adopted by both branches of the Legislature. At the same time, he must confess it appeared to him, that even that course was not entirely free from difficulty; because if in the resolutions of the other House, when brought before their Lordships, there should appear—what he had no reason to expect, but still it was not impossible—anything which their Lordships would not think it right to agree to, and if their Lordships should feel themselves called on to propose in them any important or material amendments, it appeared to him that the effect of the proceeding as a mode of influencing the judgment of the Legislature of Canada, must be much diminished if its force were not wholly destroyed. Then, again, many persons prepared to vote for a specific measure, might be unwilling to vote for a previous declaration of principle, in which they might not concur. It was under these circumstances that he begged to ask whether his Majesty's Government had made up their minds as to the course to be pursued. But if his noble Friend thought that any disadvantage, even the slightest, would result from answering his question, he begged that his noble Friend would not answer it; and upon his assurance to that effect he should be perfectly satisfied. He would now state the motion of which he had given notice, and which was mixed up in a certain degree with this question. The paper he wished to move for was a return of the expense occasioned by the Commission sent to Lower Canada. It had been his intention to notice on the present occasion some points connected with the Report made by that Commission; but on reflection, he was satisfied that it would be more conformable to the principle which he wished to see acted on with regard to that matter if he abstained from making the comments he had contemplated. He thought it fit, however, that they should know what was the expense of that Commission. He asked for that information on grounds both general and special. On general grounds, however, it was quite obvio s that the expense of the Commission had considerably tended to increase the dissatisfaction which
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before prevailed; and on special grounds, because among the various productions that spring up in these days in such luxuriant profusion out of the political soil, nothing was more remarkable than the abundance of the crop of Commissioners. He could not help thinking that there might be very good reasons for exercising at least a moderate degree of vigilance respecting the growth of that species of expense; he could not help thinking that there was some danger, if a little vigilance were not exercised, that the crop of Commissions might grow to be a crop of evils. He begged further to say, that he had entertained doubts whether there was any necessity for appointing that Commission at all, and also as to the mode in which that Commission had been composed. He entertained doubts as to the necessity of the Commission, inasmuch as he thought there was no lack of information in this country with respect to Lower Canada to be found in the office over which his noble Friend presided, and over which it had been his lot to preside for a considerable time. There might have been found abundant communications from various well-informed parties; there were, besides, the Reports of Committees of the House of Commons, and further, there was, at the time the Commission was appointed, a gentleman in London, Mr. Viger, who was a quasi representative of the Assembly of Lower Canada, and than whom no Gentleman ever worked harder with his pen for a salary of 1,300 l. a year—the amount which the Assembly of Lower Canada were so obliging as to pay him. He had frequently, at the request of that Gentleman, had interviews with him; and he should think, from the mass of information which he poured into the office, that no more complete knowledge than he was able to supply of the views, feelings, wishes, and course of proceeding-of the body, with respect to whom all these difficulties had arisen, could be desired. He believed there were many-individuals in this country whose opinions were very different from those of this gentleman, who would have had no objection to state their views to his Majesty's Government. In addition to Mr. Viger, there was at least one individual to whom he was sure his noble Friend never could have applied in vain for any Information which it was in his power to give, and of all men in this country, he was the most

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competent to furnish information that might be most implicitly relied on—he alluded to Sir J. Kempt, the late Governor of Lower Canada, who had shown himself as competent to the duty of Civil Government, as he was to that of conducting his Majesty's troops in the field.
Lord Glenelgentirely concurred with the noble Earl as to the extreme importance of this subject—a subject, he would add, which no one could call the attention of the House to with greater propriety than the noble Earl, whose acquaintance with all its bearings was necessarily so great. He was perfectly ready to answer the questions which had been put. The course intended to be taken was this. The House was aware that certain resolutions upon this subject had been brought before the House of Commons, upon which resolutions a measure had been framed. Some of these resolutions had been acceded to, and as soon as the remaining resolutions were agreed to, the whole of them would be communicated to their Lordships. In reference to the other question, respecting the expense of the Commission, he had not the slightest objection to the production of all the accounts. He quite concurred with the noble Earl as to the propriety of abstaining from any discussion on this subject on the present occasion. The question in all its bearings would, however, shortly come before their Lordships, and he would then endeavour to satisfy the noble Earl, who, he was sure, was open to conviction, of the necessity of establishing the Commission, and as to the composition and conduct of the Commission itself.
The Earl of Aberdeenwould suggest the propriety of sending to the House of Commons for a copy of the evidence on this subject taken before the Committee of 1834. The proceedings in the House of Commons had been stopped half way, and for an indefinite period, in consequence of that evidence not being before the House, it not having been printed, at the termination of the sitting of the Committee. It had now, however, been printed, and it was most desirable that it should be on their Lordships' table, in order that when the subject came before them, their proceedings might not be delayed, as those in the other House had been.
Lord Glenelgwas quite willing that the evidence should be sent for, The delay,
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however, in the other House had not originated with Ministers, who considered that the evidence already on the table of the House of Commons was quite sufficient to justify the resolutions.
A motion was made that this evidence should be sent for, and was agreed to.