Lords Sitting of 13 June 1837

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By the Duke of RUTLAND, from Aberdeen, in favour of Scotch Prisons' Dicipline Bill.—By the Earl of SHADBROKE, from parishes in Suffolk, in favour of the Poor-law Amendment Act.—By the Earl of ABERDEEN, from Aberdeen, against Profanation of the Sabbath.

METROPOLITAN CEMETERIES.
The Bishop of Londonhad two petitions to present. One was from certain incumbents within the metropolis, and the other was from the large parish of St. Pancras. It was within the knowledge of their Lordships that many of these schemes had been presented to Parliament, and two or three had passed into law; and he need hardly inform their Lordships that great hardships had resulted to incumbents in London from what they had already done. Let him not be understood as disposed to stand in the way of great public improvements, as he was at once willing to admit that the practice of burying the dead in the most crowded parts of the metropolis was injurious to health, and in many instances an infringement upon decency. But their Lordships had refused to pass the Bill for establishing the cemetery in the Harrow road, without first providing that a certain compensation should be allotted to the clergymen from whose parishes the dead were removed to the cemetery. He was sorry, however, to see that an objection prevailed amongst many of their Lordships to awarding compensation to clergymen under these circumstances. Their Lordships ought to be aware that in several parishes a great part of the income of the clergymen arose from fees, and more especially from mortuary fees. Many new parishes had been created a century or somewhat more ago, which were wholly unendowed, it being supposed that owing to the great increase of the population a sufficient income would be raised for the clergymen by fees. By the institution of these cemeteries in every direction, and thus taking away a great portion of such fees, they were doing, he would not say an injustice to the clergy, but they were inflicting a hardship upon them, and he therefore thought that the clergy were not to blame if, with reference to the passing of those measures, they paid some attention to their own interests. He knew a particular parish within his own gift, the income of the incumbent of which had been already reduced by 150 l. a-year, and that diminution was still going on. This, he could assure the House, was not by any means a solitary instance. When such facts were proved in Committee he trusted that their consideration would have due influence with their Lordships. There were other considerations of a moral and religious nature, such as the improper and promiscuous interment of the dead, which he was sure would have due weight with

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their Lordships, and induce them not to go too far, and not to carry the provisions of these measures to an extent which was not required by considerations of a public nature. Their Lordships all knew in their melancholy experience what a control was exercised over the minds of the survivors when the friend or relative whom they loved was consigned to the tomb amid the solemnities of our holy religion. He was sure from his own observation, and he spoke more with reference to the lower and middling classes, that the fact of the clergyman performing the last rights to his parishioners became a powerful bond of friendship and regard with surviving friends of the deceased. This bond was effectually severed by the parties burying the dead in cemeteries. He was fully aware that this consideration had weight rather with reference to its moral aspect or equitable claim, than to any legal right; but he was anxious to press it upon their Lordships both on behalf of the clergyman and the parishioners. He had no hesitation in saying that if these cemeteries were suffered to multiply, without affording a reasonable compensation to the clergy, there must be either some legislative grant, or the voluntary system must be adopted in some parishes for the maintenance of their clergy; ay, for many incumbents who were now considered the richest in the metropolis. The prayer of the petitions was, that the petitioners might be heard by counsel against the Necropolis Cemetery Bill.
Petitions laid on the table.

PUBLIC WORKS (IRELAND).
On the Order of the Day being read for going into Committee on the Public Works (Ireland) Bill,
The Marquess of Lansdownein moving the Committee, felt it his duty to offer a few observations upon the Bill, not only because it was important in itself, as affecting the welfare of the people of Ireland, but certainly as of still greater importance when considered in connexion with another most important measure which was not immediately before their Lordships, but a measure which was known to be before the Legislature, and which was certainly of no insignificant or unimportant character. In the first place, however, he would simply and shortly state the immediate object of the present Bill. It merely made some alterations in the provisions of a former Bill, in order to extend
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a system which had been acted upon advantageously for some years for the encouragement of public works in Ireland; and he was confident it would meet with the concurrence of those who had examined the progress of those works, and who had studied the public reports that had been from time to time made upon those works which had been carried into effect in that country, with singular benefit, as far as it extended to the population, and carried into effect by instruments who had been found eminently qualified for the task of administering and controlling the works which had been carried on under their inspection and direction. Their Lordships knew the value of that board by an experience of four or five years, and during that time they had effected many works of a great and important nature to the public at large. A great many others on a similar scale were in progress, but it was necessary that some measure like the present should be introduced to bring them to a successful termination. Undoubtedly many of the works now in progress could not be completed without the assistance which Parliament could supply; and it was for the purpose of completing these works, and originating others on the same principle, that the Bill was introduced. The Bill embraced a principle which was generally admitted to be proper where the public interfered with public works, but which was more especially the case in Ireland, namely, that a certain, and he would say a large, amount of local contribution should be required, in order to afford a certainty that the work was not merely one which would suit the interest of some particular individuals, but that it met with the concurrence of those who resided in the neighbourhood, and who were willing to make a sacrifice for the purpose of seeing it accomplished. The Bill therefore provided that a sum of money to the amount of 50,000 l. should be furnished by Government, where the same amount was furnished by local contribution. The 50,000 l. would be paid out of the Consolidated Fund, under the direction of a board, where provision was made to incur an equal expenditure, either by the grand jury, or a meeting of the justices, with the concurrence of the rate-payers. In this respect only did this Bill differ from the Bill which had already received the sanction of their Lordships. Considering the different checks and safe-guards provided by the Bill, he was convinced that

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there would be no danger of incurring a useless expenditure, and more particularly when the parties calling for the expenditure must in the first place advance one-half of the required sum, and be subject to inquiry. If he had any doubt about recommending this Bill to the attention of their Lordships, that doubt was removed when he considered this Bill relative to and in connexion with that most important measure which was now depending in the other House of Parliament, a measure which their Lordships would hereafter and during the present Session have offered to their consideration, and which he trusted that their Lordships would be induced, with any modifications it might receive in either House of Parliament, to adopt as a most important experiment for removing poverty from Ireland. He could call it no other than an experiment, when he considered what masses of the population it would affect, and the uncertain circumstances in which that population was placed. He said, therefore, that he could only recommend it as an experiment which it was the duty of the Government and of Parliament to try for the purpose of affording, if not complete and effectual, the most complete and effectual relief which they could afford to the distress that was known to exist in that country. But looking at the character of that measure, though he was prepared to give it his support, and though he was disposed to hope that it might have the concurrence of their Lordships, he should not feel that he was discharging his duty if he did not state that he was not blind to the uncertainty, even to the danger, or the possible occurrences and contingencies which might attend the measure. He believed that the measure could only be rendered perfectly safe in its operation by its being attended with certain collateral measures which should provide for the population of that country in those cases of occasional, partial, but overwhelming distress which was known to exist from time to time in that country. He looked upon this measure, the principle of which the House might hereafter extend, should occasion arise to call for it, as a means of providing relief in another form, in a form which, to the extent that it was applied, he thought more useful, in a form which has been found useful already, in calling forth the exertions of individuals to provide for the poor, and in calling forth the exertions of the poor themselves, who were rendered substantially better by ob-
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taining relief in this shape than if they received direct alms. But he looked at this Bill also as a collateral security—a safety-valve attending the operation of the more general measure; and it might hereafter be still further extended if thought fit. On these grounds he thought that this Bill had peculiar claims upon the attention of their Lordships; but he could not dismiss the subject, or close the few observations with which he had to trouble their Lordships, without saying, that he did not look to this measure as the only collateral security attending the measure for introducing Poor-laws into Ireland with a view to greater safety, but he looked to another class of measures, which might be collected from the papers recently moved for and laid on the table of the House by his noble Friend the Secretary for the Colonies,—he meant the measures for the encouragement and protection of emigration from all parts of the country. He looked to those measures as a most important resource in certain contingencies which might arise in the progress of the measure to which be had just called the attention of their Lordships. It was, however, a measure attended with great difficulty, as all measures were which called for the interference of Government with the natural application of labour. Upon this subject it was necessary that the Government should proceed with the greatest caution. Their Lordships would see, from the papers he had referred to, what was the nature of the demand for emigration as it existed in the different colonies, and what was the extent to which it had been carried. He was not about to make a statement of that which might be collected with greater facility from the papers on the table, but he would take the liberty of stating the nature of the demand which existed in particular colonies, both with reference to the amount and quality of the population that was required to emigrate there. In the course of the last four or five years there had been an increasing disposition to emigrate both to our North American colonies and to New Holland. To the latter place, which possessed peculiar advantages, upwards of 3,000 persons emigrated yearly; they found in that colony increased advantages for receiving those emigrants, and better means for providing for them when they arrived. The emigrants to our North American colonies amounted to something less than 25,000 or 30,000 yearly for the last three or four

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years. Upon this point it would be perceived that steps had been already taken by the present Government particularly by his noble Friend (Lord Glenelg) to give encouragement to emigration. The nature of that encouragement was not in the shape of direct pecuniary assistance to the persons about to emigrate; but it nevertheless afforded most important assistance to the party emigrating. Persons were appointed at every port, who were perfectly qualified for the situation, and who had the charge of superintending every thing relative to emigration. There was thus an agent at every port, from which it was convenient or desirable that emigration should be carried on, to furnish information and assistance. Government also was prepared to offer the means of emigration, not pecuniary means, but on the party wishing to emigrate paying a certain fixed sum, the Government would undertake his safe transport, as far as they could, to his place of destination. Further, the Government would undertake to provide emigrants upon landing with labour from the moment of their arrival at the particular place to which they had stated their wish to migrate; and this he thought was a most important security given to emigrants. Government was not prepared to carry their assistance further. He hoped, however, that Government and Parliament would feel that it was their duty to watch the operation of those measures. All he would add was, that an enlarged and liberal measure of emigration, and the extension of public works in Ireland on the principles of the present Bill, would be in his opinion highly conducive to the peace and prosperity of the empire. The noble Marquess concluded by moving that the House do resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House upon this Bill.
Lord Fitzgeraldwas of opinion, that without collateral measures the experiment of a Poor-law could not be fairly tried, or safely tried, in Ireland. When he saw this Bill brought before them, without the explanation which the noble Marquess had now given, he confessed that he was particularly jealous with reference to one of its principal provisions. He agreed with the noble Marquess as to the advantage which must be derived from the encouragement of public works. Money thus laid out must be beneficial to the country under existing circumstances, as well as under circumstances which might arise hereafter. He did, however, view with some appre-
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hension, until the matter was explained by the noble Marquess, and even now he viewed with some degree of jealousy, the mode in which it was proposed to levy the moiety of the sum necessary for the prosecution of these public works on the different counties of Ireland. The noble Marquess had stated why the provision contained in the former Bill had been departed from. That course had been taken because the distress which the employment given by the prosecution of public works was intended to relieve might be greatly aggravated if the proceeding were delayed until the grand jury made a presentment. He saw the difficulty of the case, and therefore he felt unwilling to oppose the provision. But he must say, that he was almost equally unwilling to give to the persons in whom, by this Bill, the discretion was vested, the power of calling for the prosecution of public works, involving the outlay of a large sum of money. The grand jury, it appeared, were to have no discretion in the case whatever, not even with respect to the gross general sum expended. Now, he did not like to give to the magistrates and cess-payers so important a power as this Bill confided to them. The Bill provided, that any three justices of the peace (not alluding to what parish, or barony, or division of the county they might belong to, and saying nothing about qualification) might assemble with such cess-payers as had assembled at the previous Sessions, and declare to the Lord-lieutenant the necessity of proceeding with any given public work. Now, he would ask, how the cess-payers who had met at the preceding Sessions were to be re-assembled? He did not like to grant such a power to an irresponsible body—to persons who, in many instances, must necessarily be of an inferior class. He would rather throw the whole responsibility on the Government than give so extensive a power to those parties. Though he did not approve of the manner in which this part of the Bill was framed, still he believed that the intention of the Government was to effect a public good, and he hoped that in the present or some other stage of the Bill the objection which he now made would be obviated. With respect to the question of a Poor-law for Ireland, he would say that it was impossible for any person who looked at the Reports of the Commissioners appointed to inquire into the state of the Irish poor to overrate the importance of the subject. Such a measure could not be effectual, he was convinced, without the adoption of

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collateral and auxiliary measures, in order to afford employment for the people, and it was in that point of view that he regarded the present Bill. When he looked at the Reports of those Commissioners—when he considered the mass of evidence which they had collected—and, still more, when he reflected on the deductions which they had drawn from that evidence—he could not help coming to the conclusion that the measure in progress elsewhere was inadequate to the evil which was to be remedied. It did not afford the means of removing that destitution to which between 2,000,000 and 3,000,000 of human beings were now subjected. It did not at all meet the difficulty in that respect. However able the Report of Mr. Nicholls might be, still it could not be denied that it was speculative, and founded rather on his knowledge of the English law than on any information he had himself acquired in Ireland. Indeed, it had been stated by a noble Lord, that Mr. Nicholls was not sent to Ireland to procure information, but to point out the manner in which the information obtained by others might best be acted on. The view which he was induced to take of this subject, after reading that Report, convinced him (more than perhaps even the noble Marquess was himself convinced) of the strong necessity which existed for auxiliary measures. The propriety of encouraging public works for the employment of the people was not a question now to be discussed. They had formerly had an opportunity of ascertaining how beneficial such a system was, not only in a moral, but in a political view, as tending to preserve peace and tranquillity in the country. With respect to emigration, he would say, that without emigration on a scale not limited nor partial, but extensive and national, a due provision for the poor could not be found. The establishment of workhouses would only go to relieve the distressed population from immediate starvation, but would not remove the evil. He did not blame the Government for making an experiment of this nature; but he was perfectly convinced, that by emigration alone could the Irish labourer hope to be permanently relieved from a state of destitution. There was a passage in the Report of the Commissioners on this point, in the truth and justice of which he entirely agreed. They said, "We look to emigration as an auxiliary essential to a commencing course of amelioration. It is thus, and thus only, that the market of labour
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can be relieved from the weight which presses on it, and the Irish labourer be raised from his present prostrate situation."
The Earl of Fingallsaid, it had been asserted, by a noble Lord on a former evening, that the Irish Poor Commissioners had dealt rather in opinions than facts. Now, it appeared to him that their Lordships must have a most ravenous appetite for facts, if they were not quite satisfied with those detailed in the evidence collected by the Commissioners. He was one of the Commissioners—he concurred in the opinions and sentiments of his fellow Commissioners, and he had, without hesitation, signed the Report. In common with the noble Marquess, he felt the necessity for encouraging public works in Ireland, and he was of opinion that the distress which afflicted that country could not be removed by one measure, but must be cured by a series of auxiliary measures. He concurred in the provisions of the Bill before their Lordships.
The Bill went through Committee, and the House resumed.