Lords Sitting of 2 February 1837

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a first time:—Wills.
Petitions presented. By Lord STRAFFORD, from Leominster, for the Abolition of Church Rates.

NATIONAL EDUCATION.
Lord Broughamsaid, he had the honour to lay before their Lordships a Bill which he had introduced the Session before the last, but which was not pressed through the House —he meant a Bill for promoting education and for regulating charities. It was not his intention, on the present occasion, to trouble their Lordships with a detail of the Bill; it was similar to the one to which he had referred, but it contained two material additions. The object of the Bill was to establish a board for the purpose of superintending the application of the funds which from time to time Parliament voted; also, to regulate the administration of charity funds generally, and to prevent abuses therein. Of this board the President of the Council, the Lord Privy Seal, the Secretary of State for the Home Department, and the Speaker of the House of Commons, would be members. The material changes in the present Bill were, in relation to certain powers, given for the regulation of education, and in the next place for the regulation of charities. Their Lordships were aware that objections had been made to the previous Bill on account of its being supposed to have a mischievous effect on voluntary contributions for educational purposes; now the present Bill obviated that; and, indeed, there was no intention in the former measure, to supersede voluntary contributions. These alterations effected a considerable improvement in the Bill, and he was very sanguine in his belief that it would be of great benefit to education. There were other alterations which he did not think it necessary to advert to; and he would move that the Bill be now read a first time.
Read a first time.

LOCAL COURTS BILL.—PLURALITIES.
Lord Broughamsaid, he had now two Bills to introduce, but he should at present merely move their first reading, and should not proceed with them a further stage unless the measures for the improvement and better administration of the laws which his noble Friends, his Majesty's Ministers, were about to introduce to Parliament, should be, in his opinion, inefficient. The Bills which he had now to lay upon the table were these—the one to prevent pluralities, and the other to establish local courts. No change in the latter Bill had been made beyond a few verbal alterations. The Bill, as their Lordships
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were aware, had gone through several stages, and was lost on its third reading. True it was, there was a great difference of opinion in that House, whether such a measure ought to pass at all or not; but if one ought, then, as he understood the opinions of their Lordships, the present was the form in which it ought to pass. Undoubtedly, as regarded the numbers on the division on the third reading, there was a large majority against it. The noble and learned Lord concluded by moving that the Bills be read a first time.
Read a first time.

IRISH NATIONAL ASSOCIATION.
Lord Cloncurrywished, before their Lordships adjourned, to say a few words in reference to a circumstance which took place in that House on a former evening, when allusion was made to the National Association of Ireland, from which country he had recently arrived. No man lamented more than he did the necessity which had called that Association into existence; but, at the same time, he did not think that any noble Lord was justified in looking at it as an illegal or an unlawful association. He could speak of that association the more freely and impartially, inasmuch as he did not belong to it; and, in his opinion, it ought to be called a society for the vindication of Ireland, because it was in consequence of insulting, intemperate, and improper language having been used towards that country that it was first established. He cherished no feeling but for the prosperity of that country; and, if possible, he would conjoin that prosperity with the welfare of this country by a course of kind and beneficent policy. But it was quite impossible that that real affection or that warm feeling of mutual interest which it was so desirable to establish between the two countries could be maintained, if individuals came forward, he might say, to insult and libel a generous and high-minded people, because they struggled for those-rights which had been unjustly withheld from them. That the National Association of Ireland, like all other bodies similarly situated, and similarly called together, had suffered language to be made use of which it would have been better to have avoided, he did not mean to deny; but still, their object was uniform, it was openly avowed, and he thought it was just. That object was, to get rid of one of the greatest mis-

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fortunes that afflicted the country, and which brought destitution on Ireland—he meant unlawful combinations amongst the industrious classes, which had never failed to produce ruin and destruction in all parts of the country where they prevailed. So far as he understood, the Association had instituted a class of persons to preserve the peace, to give good advice to the people; and, if the peace were not observed—if the peace were infringed, then to take measures for remedying the disorder. He wished that he could laugh when he spoke on the subject of Ireland. He saw nothing to laugh at in the situation of that country. It was no laughing matter; and he thought they would be acting most unwisely if respect were not paid to the just claims of that country. The National Association of Ireland, he was quite convinced, would dissolve itself if his Majesty signified his pleasure that it should be dissolved. But there was another institution, of which no notice had been taken—a very numerous institution, which, as it appeared to him, had assembled for an illegal purpose in Dublin—for the self-evident purpose, he would say, of exciting dissention and division amongst the people, if not disobedience to the law. Summoned by certain Peers, a meeting of Protestants took place in a room adjoining the Mansion-house in Dublin; and their Lordships might judge of what sort of a meeting it was, when he stated, that the Lord Mayor of Dublin, as he understood, refused to preside at that meeting, although he allowed it to be held in a room attached to the Mansion-house. At that meeting the most violent and rancorous demonstration of Orange feeling was exhibited. Orange flags were carried about in triumph; and some of the party would, it was said, have waited on the Lord-Lieutenant, in a boisterous and tumultuous manner, if they had not apprehended that they would have been met by another and a larger party, who professed different principles. This proceeding had, however, done considerable good, because it had induced many noble Lords, extensive landed proprietors, and many commoners, to come forward with their protest against such indecorous proceedings. The Duke of Leinster, that man so excellent in all the relations of life, called on the peers and gentry of Ireland to express their opinion, and to remonstrate on this occasion, and that call was trium-
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phantly responded to. Thirty-four most influential Peers connected with Ireland joined with the noble Duke in his expression of dissent. He admitted, that amongst those who attended the meeting to which he had referred there were several highly respectable persons. He had heard, however, that they had put down Peers of thirteen or fourteen years of age to swell the numbers, and that some who formerly acted on the other side now took an adverse part, merely from carelessness and facility. The meeting was, however, guided by those who, over and over again, had raised a mighty clamour, and endeavoured to injure the Government, merely because that Government had, for the first time, endeavoured to do justice, and nothing more than justice, to Ireland. He had little communication with the Government of Ireland —he, of himself, knew nothing of what they were doing. He believed, however, that they simply wished to do justice to Ireland; and further, he believed that those who calumniated and spoke injuriously of them belonged to that party who had profited by bad government, and who had arrogated to themselves the spoils of a people who had been too long trampled on. All he asked for Ireland was justice. He called on their Lordships to look at the question calmly and peaceably; and, having so considered it, to do what was right to the people of Ireland. But if it were hoped that the people of Ireland should be re-conquered—if it were contemplated that they should be subjected to the coercion of the bayonet and the sword—it was impossible but that such a resistance would be made as would bring the states of Europe, and perhaps America, to join with and succour the oppressed. Called on as they were by his Majesty to consider the situation of that country, and to give an opinion on that subject, he entreated their Lordships to look forward to the true means of allaying irritation by seeking remedies for existing evils. Let them not imagine that a licentious soldiery could be let loose on a nation without going much further than those persons intended who first counselled such a course. They saw here a people possessed, in an eminent degree, of ingenuity and industry reduced to a state of destitution and degradation by bad government. How was this frightful state of things to be altered? The way, the evident way, to relieve that people was to

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give them education, which had been withheld from them in the most unfair manner —to give them employment, which they would be but too happy to receive—to give them also an adequate interest in the management of their own concerns, by imparting to them as large a measure of corporate reform as had been extended to England and Scotland. Further, by giving them an equitable and fair system of Poor laws, or rather a labour-rate; for the landed proprietors were, many of them, absentees, overwhelmed with distress and difficulties, and, with reference at least to them, a labour-rate would be the best measure that could be devised. If such relief as he had spoken of were given to the people of Ireland, it would render them tranquil and happy, and would produce incalculable benefits to the empire at large.
Lord Broughamwished to give his noble Friend (Lord Cloncurry) an opportunity of explaining an expression in his speech. He alluded to where he said that the present was the first Government that had endeavoured to do justice to Ireland. Now it would be recollected by the noble Baron, that Lords Wellesley and Anglesey had not long since held the reins of Government in that country, and he was sure he would rejoice in the opportunity of stating that in his place which he fully expressed in a letter lately seen by him (Lord Brougham), namely, a full acknowledgment of the great anxiety of the noble Lords to whom he alluded to do justice to Ireland. He thought an explanation due to the noble Lords—due to his noble Friend then at the head of his Majesty's Councils, Earl Grey; to the noble Lord who then held the office of Chief Secretary for the Home Department (Lord Melbourne), and to those who held the office of Chief Secretary in Ireland, as well as to himself, who at the time held a place of high trust as a servant of his Majesty. He was sure his noble Friend (Lord Cloncurry) would be glad of the opportunity of doing justice to those of whom he spoke. Perhaps the matter might be considered trifling, yet it would be well to correct any apparent errors, and not to allow any evil effects to follow.
Lord Cloncurryharboured no intention to insinuate anything against the conduct of the noble Lords who had been alluded to. He bore willing testimony to the humanity of the Marquess of Anglesey, and he believed that no man was more anxious
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to do his duty than that noble Lord was. But it was hardly necessary for him to state, what everybody knew, that the Marquess of Anglesey was counteracted in his efforts, and that he had received orders from his own secretary not to adopt certain measures which he contemplated. Still he endeavoured to do something, and he had some degree of success. Then there was the Duke of Northumberland, an intermediate Lord-Lieutenant, than whom he believed a man more zealous to do his duty never lived, nor was there a man for whom he felt greater respect. He, too, was prevented from acting as he wished. With respect to Lord Wellesley, he had always looked up to him as one of the first men of his age; but his noble and learned Friend must know, that Lord Wellesley was, in both his governments, counteracted in his endeavour to carry into effect those plans which he had prepared for the benefit of the country. He should be very sorry, in what he had said, to be understood as meaning to cast any reflection on the noble individuals mentioned by his noble and learned Friend. All that he meant to say was, that there never was anything like uniformity of action in the Government generally, having for its object justice to Ireland, until the present Administration came into power.