Lords Sitting of 18 December 1837

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By the Marquess of LANSDOWNE, from the Society of Friends in England and Wales, against the Municipal Officers' Declarations Bill, because it does not extend to them.

POST. OFFICE.
Lord Brougham Lord Brougham, in
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presenting a petition from the Lord mayor, Aldermen, and Commons of the city of London, in common council assembled, on the subject of the Post-office, said that no portion of her Majesty's subjects had a deeper interest in the good regulation of that great establishment than the citizens of the great city whom the petitioners represented. The petitioners stated that a swift communication by post tended greatly to the improvement of the commerce, manufactures, and agriculture of this country, and was also highly important for the collection and diffusion of information, by which the education of the people would be greatly accelerated, as well as friendly intercourse forwarded. The mercantile part of the city of London had turned their attention to this subject; they had very fully gone into the details; they had themselves very extensive experience on the question; they had the capacity beyond most men of examining the particulars and principles of any plan which might be adopted for its improvement; therefore their opinion was entitled to operate by way of testimony in reference to any plan, and they gave it in favour of Mr. Rowland Hill's. It did not appear that they approved that plan in all its details; but it was clearly the principle of that plan to which they referred, because they alluded to the ninth report of the Commissioners of Post-office inquiry, and prayed that the Government would make the experiment suggested in the first instance in the two penny-post department. He need hardly remind their Lordships that there was no authority on such a subject so high as that of the mercantile and trading classes of the community; and there was perhaps no person of higher authority among mercantile and trading men than his noble Friend (Lord Ashburton). That noble Lord had come to the opinion that the conveyance of letters was not of itself—a due regard being had to the convenience of the public—a proper subject of taxation for the purpose of revenue. No doubt the difficulty would be great of retracing their steps; but if the question were raised for the first time whether a great mercantile country ought to make the postage or conveyance of letters a subject of revenue or a matter of taxation, he thought the answer of his noble Friend would be in the negative, as well as the answer which he himself would give. He

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would now take it that even after so large a revenue as a million and a half had been collected and received, even if the alteration tended generally to lower that revenue, it would in the end not only compensate itself, and raise the revenue to its former pitch, but would greatly increase that revenue. Such was the proposition which, as soon as the question came before their Lordships in a more fit shape to decide, he (Lord Brougham) for one was prepared to maintain. He would go at once to the reduction of one penny per half ounce, which was the proposition of Mr. Hill. He (Lord Brougham) did not mean to assert that such a diminution of the postage would so largely increase the number of letters so as to bring up the gross revenue to its present amount. He would go further. He looked forward to the great been which it would confer upon the whole mercantile world in this country — the vast increase which it would give to the great trading interests of the country, by which the revenue in every branch must be greatly and wonderfully increased. He rejoiced at the presence of his noble Friend the Postmaster-General, because he wished much to tell him that he (Lord Lichfield) had failed to satisfy his (Lord Brougham's) mind that the plan suggested by Mr. Hill was so totally impracticable as he had stated it to be. He conceived that the whole of his noble Friend's calculation was founded upon a statement that the total number of letters now was between forty-two and forty-three millions. His noble Friend confined himself exclusively to the general post, but there the author of the plan, Mr. Hill, and the authorities at the Post-office, were at direct issue. That was the very point in dispute between the parties. Mr. Hill calculated the letters going through the Post-office at 79½ millions—in round numbers, 80 millions. He believed it was a fact beyond dispute that 22½ millions passed through the Post-offices in London in a year. Ten millions of those 22½ millions went through the general post, while 12½ went through the two penny or three penny post. In the calculations, therefore, they were to deduct the 10 millions from the 22½ millions. His noble Friend had taken those 10 millions, and made his calculation for the whole country. He found these yielded 460,000 l., and then he found the whole of the general post letters for the United Kingdom yielded about four times
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that sum: This proceeded on the assumption that the average value of the country letters to the revenue was precisely the same as the average value of the letters in the London district; the average of each letter in the London district was calculated at 12½d. Every one knew that the amount of postage in London was larger than in the country, because the London letters included large packages of foreign letters, which went to swell the amount of the postage received, and to increase the average value of the letters, and might raise it to 12½d. in the London district. But in the country districts there were no such circumstances, because very few foreign packages were sent into the country. It was not correct to state that Mr. Hill's plan made no provision for any increased expense in the Post-office department, in consequence of the increased number of letters and the amount of business to be attended to; he allowed 225,000 l. for the additional expense of working his plan. The impracticability was another grand objection to this plan; there was nothing new in that objection. Indeed, the word had often been used in that House and elsewhere as establishing an insuperable objection to all plans for the improvement of the Post-office. He could refresh the memory of their Lordships by referring to the places and occasions when this word had been used as reasonably and quite as positively as it was now used. Their Lordships would recollect that in the year 1784 a gentleman named Palmer recommended the adoption of a system of mail-coach carriages, when at that time the mails were carried at the rate of three miles and a half an hour. Mr. Palmer was of opinion, that they could be carried at the rate of seven miles an hour, if not more. Did not their Lordships recollect the alarm which the announcement of this proposition spread through every department of the Post-office? Did they recollect the indignation, the absolute contempt—the scornful contempt with which it was received by all the officials of the Post-office? A contempt equalled only by the loud chorus of applause which they rung in the ears of Parliament in praise of every one man, every one rule, every one regulation in any way connected with any one department of that most perfect establishment, the Post-office of 1784, with its safe,

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sure, and steady mails of three miles and a half an hour. The Committee of the House of Commons, in its Report upon this subject in 1797, declared, that "the more we consider the plans of Mr. Palmer, the more arc we convinced of the insuperable difficulty in attempting to bring them into operation. The officers of the Post-office, whom we regard as the best judges of the question, have been examined before us, and are unanimously of opinion, that the thing is totally impracticable." Another Committee, reporting on the same subject, said, "We have examined the oldest and ablest officers of the Post-office," (it was always the oldest and ablest, for the Committees considered the term synonymous), "and the oldest and ablest officers had no confidence whatever in the plan." Indeed, in looking over these Reports, he found that it was always the oldest and ablest who had the greatest contempt for improvement, and that the older an officer was, the greater contempt he had for the officer who was less old than himself. They were all, however, both young and old, positively of opinion, that the plan of Mr. Palmer was not only impracticable, but dangerous to commerce and finance. It was frightful for their Lordships to think of the dangers which the commerce and finance of the country had escaped since that period. They had been exposed, not only to the dangers of the French war and the orders in council, but they had likewise escaped the dangers incurred by the melancholy and awful change of the speed of the mails from three and a half miles to seven miles an hour. But that was not all; the finances of the country had an escape possibly greater. When Mr. Palmer, in 1784, laid his reckless hand on the pace of the Post-office horses, the revenue in that department was 150,000 l. a-year, and it had since that time fallen to 1,500,000 l. Notwithstanding all that had been done to accelerate its fall by increasing the speed of mails, and although the Bath mail, instead of taking eighteen hours on its journey, arrived now in thirteen or fourteen. It was the tortoise they emulated at the Post-office. It might be supposed to be a very simple proposition, that the passengers and property which went by the mail, would be more safe from there being a guard to each coach. The old and able officers of the Post-office, however, thought differently. They contended that
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it was a most erroneous notion to suppose that, having a guard, would increase the security. One of the objections they urged was, that in a case of robbery, where there was a guard, there would be resistance, and the result of that would be bloodshed. They maintained that the only way of preventing robbery was to cut the Bank notes and send them by the mail. People must send one half, and wait till informed of its safe arrival before they sent the other. Speaking, no doubt, from actual experience, they said that the strongest carts that could be made, lined and bound with iron, were not proof against the robbers of mails. He begged their Lordships' pardon for giving them these specimens of the wisdom of their ancestors. Those personages, however, had interrupted the progress of Mr. Palmer's plan in every possible way; they had cast cold water on it for months and years; and yet no sooner was it established than all approved of it, and all felt the benefit of it, except the Postmasters, who, for eighteen months afterwards, said it was dangerous and detrimental to the revenue. They all agreed that it was chimerical, visionary, speculative; but all the chimera and speculativeness that existed in relation to the plan, was not in the plan itself, but in the objections raised by those who had nothing better than needless alarms to guide their easily pervertible minds. Had he presented this petition, as he proposed, a few nights ago, he should have asked his noble Friend if it was intended to try the plan in the way recommended, but that question had now been answered, and, he was sorry to say, answered in a very unsatisfactory manner. He knew his noble Friend too well to suppose him capable of holding out any expectations for which he had not good grounds. Very sanguine expectations had been entertained, but contrary to those expectations the hopes of himself, of many others, and amongst these he believed his noble Friend himself had been greatly disappointed. Instead of carrying into execution the plan according to the ninth report, another plan was to be carried into execution totally different in its nature, and which might fail over and over again, without the possibility of even a post-office speculator pretending that it was a failure of Mr. Rowland Hill's plan, because it was to be confined now to the twopenny-postage. Mr. Hill's plan was

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not that the postage should be reduced to twopence—it was that the postage should be reduced to a penny—the two penny and three penny postage to a penny for all letters, and to try the plan in the two penny and three penny post alone. Instead of this, the plan proposed to be tried was not the reduction of the postage to a penny, but the reduction to two pence, which, if it failed, either in reference to revenue or in any other respect, would be no kind of test whatever of the merits or goodness of Mr. Hill's plan, but would be an experiment, under the pretence of trying Mr. Hill's plan, utterly inconsistent with it.
Viscount Duncannonsaid, that after meture consideration, it was found to be inixpedient to try the experiment of Mr. Hill's plan to the full extent that had been proposed. In the ninth report of the Commissioners, in which Mr. Hill's suggestions were embodied, it was recommended that stamp covers should be issued by the Post-office at one penny, to carry every thing under an ounce weight, not only for the short distance of three miles, but for twelve miles round the environs of London. The other part of the plan was, that there should be a stamp cover for two-pence, to carry any weight not exceeding six ounces; and that suggestion was founded on the representations of the London publishers, who wished to have this means of transmitting pamphlets and other light publications to the country. His right hon. Friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, however, did not intend to carry those suggestions into effect in the way proposed, but he determined on the issue of penny stamp covers for the short distances, and to reduce the fourpenny post to two pence. He admitted that this could not be considered as a trial of Mr. Hill's plan, but he thought it the safer course in the first instance.
The Earl of Lichfieldsaid, there were one or two points in the noble and learned Lord's calculations which were in some degree incorrect, and which he could have set right if he had brought down the returns which had been prepared on the subject. What he had stated was, that forty-two millions of chargeable letters passed through the general post-office; and the way of ascertaining that was not according to the mode stated by his noble and learned Friend, which was, in reality Mr. Rowland Hill's plan. The way in
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which Mr. Hill calculated was, that about ten millions of letters passed through the general post, which being multiplied by four, the calculated increase would amount to forty millions. He then took ten millions of two penny post letters, which he had multiplied by four, and that made the eighty millions of letters; but their Lordships must be aware that there was no two penny post throughout the country, and Mr. Hill had no right to multiply the two penny post circulated four times. To bring this plan to a fair test, he had no right to join the two-penny and general post office together. They were distinct departments, and the revenue derived from the post-office being so much, and the post letters being so many, the ex-pence of transmission amounted to about one penny on the conveyance of each letter. Mr. Hill stated that the expense of conveyance was only a penny l–16th, and he calculated upon one undred and thirty-six millions of newspapers and letters passing through the general post-office. Mr. Hill had not made any sufficient provision for the increase in the establishment that this increased bulk would require. The charge on the post-office for transmission by the railways would be by weight, and there was no hope that the charge for transmission by that conveyance would be at all reduced. Mr. R. Hill had entirely omitted to provide for the greater bulk of additional letters in his plan. At present the cost of mail coaches, &c, was 100,000 l. per annum, for the conveyance of forty millions of chargeable letters, the chargeable correspondence paying for the transmission of the free correspondence, and if the postage charge were generally reduced to one penny for each letter, it would require twelve times the present circulation of letters to produce the revenue now derived from the post office charges. There was no prospect of any possibility of reducing the clerk establishment of the post-office. As it was it required the utmost exertions on the part of the sorting clerks to sort the letters, though the daily average was not more than 30,000. Indeed it was consisidered a very heavy evening when 30,000 letters went out of town. The number of newspapers was frequently 50,000 or 60,000. Supposing that, with the reduced charge of one penny on each letter, it were found that ten times the present number of letters were transmitted through

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the Post-office, this would obviously require a proportionate increase in the number of sorting clerks; for, instead of only 30,000 letters to sort between five and half-past seven o'clock, there would be 300,000; and, besides this, it would become absolutely necessary to enlarge the Post-office itself. He was ready to admit that a very considerable reduction in the Post-office charges might be made without any serious injury to the revenue; but it must be remarked, that to depart at all from Mr. Hill's penny charge, would be to depart altogether from his principle, which was based on one uniform penny rate of postage. He quite agreed that the experiment now about to be made could not be regarded as a trial of Mr. Hill's plan. It was not a reduction of the postage dues, but simply the giving parties the option of substituting a stamped envelope for the present mode of payment. If this mode of transmission were found to meet with public approbation, then it might become a question how to apply the system to the general post. As to Mr. Hill's plan, he was quite sure that its adoption would cause a considerable loss to the revenue.
The Earl of Radnoragreed with what had fallen from the noble Lord who had just sat down; but what Mr. Rowland Hill had a right to complain of was, that so much of his plan only had been taken as would ensure its failure, and induce the] belief that it was his.; The experiment was, whether the public would adopt a plan of envelopes, which they were to pay for beforehand. He knew that it was difficult to get the public out of an old track, and he was afraid such would be the Case with the present experiment. Another objection was, that there would be a manifest loss in manufacturing the envelopes, some of which he had seen, and he must confess they were very beautiful, but they were to be manufactured by most intricate machinery, which would require a very great outlay for its construction. He thought it must be evident to every one that if Mr. Hill's plan were partially adopted there would be a very great increase of letters. He had presented a petition from the booksellers of London on Friday night last, in which it was stated that if the taxation was reduced their correspondence would increase to the extent of twenty thousand, and in some cases fifty thousand letters a year. There would
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certainly be a neceesity for a considerable extension of the Post Office, and the employment of a greater number of sorting clerks; but Mr. Rowland Hill had pointed out a mode by which a great saving might be effected in another department—that of the accountants. He protested against the slighting and disingenuous manner in which Mr. Hill's plan was treated.
The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, that the impression on his mind certainly was, that the Government had taken the right course on this subject. Nothing could be so fatal as a great and sudden diminution of the rate of postage, and consequently revenue, particularly if it should be afterwards found disadvantageous. He had a great notion that it would be utterly impossible to reduce the rate of postage to a 1d. on all letters that were sent through the Twopenny Post. If the profit were at present 60,000 l., and 60,000 l. only, and if the number of letters as was stated, varied exceedingly; the Government would find that 60,000 l. would not afford them the means of reducing the charge for the carriage of letters to 1d. Under these circumstances he thought that the Government had acted with great prudence in beginning their experiments on this system cautiously and by degrees. His opinion was, that they were quite right not to be in too great a hurry to reduce the payment of postage on letters. No person, not even the noble and learned Lord (Brougham) pretended that there should be such a reduction that the profits would be insufficient, not only to carry on the Post Office department, but to administer all the duties and pay all the expenses; that was the lowest point to which the reduction ought to be carried, but he was confident that the present proposal would carry it further.
Lord Broughamwished to disabuse the House on this subject. It was a mistake to suppose the plan of the Government was to be an experiment of Mr. Hill's plan. It had just enough of resemblance to Mr. Hill's plan to make the public suppose that the plan had a trial, and in the event of a failure to enable the opponents of the plan to say that it had failed. It was not even an experiment of degrees. In no one way could it be said that it was a step towards carrying out the details of Mr. Hill's plan. It bore, to be sure, a resemblance to it, but he denied it carried with it its important features, He denied that

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Mr. R. Hill's plan included General and Two penny Post letters, and he was satisfied that inquiry would prove his calculation of eighty millions was right. The noble Lord had asserted that Mr. Hill had made no allowance for the increased expense, but their Lordships would find that he had allowed nearly 230,000 l. for that purpose, the remaining sum required to be obtained by an improved management.
Petition laid on the table.

MUNICIPAL OFFICERS' DECLARATION BILL.
The Marquess of Lansdowne The Marquess of Lansdowne, in moving that the House go into a Committee on this Bill, presented a petition from certain persons connected with the Society of Friends in England and Wales, and describing themselves as the representatives of that Society, stating that this Bill had not been brought into Parliament at their instance or request—for the objection of members of their society went not only to the oath or declaration which parties were called upon to take on entering upon corporate office, but also the jurisdiction which, as members of a corporation, they might be called to exercise over tithes and other ecclesiastical matters. The petitioners further stated that this Bill would not reach their case—they required not to be subjected to the making of any declaration to which they objected on conscientious grounds, and they expressed a hope that the House would relieve them from the penalties to which they were now exposed for declining to take upon themselves offices which they could not take without violating their conscience.
The House resolved itself into a Committee.
Lord Brougham Lord Brougham moved the amendment of which he had given notice on a former evening. This Bill ought not to be confined to three sects of Christians—it ought to extend beyond the Quakers, Moravians, and Separatists, and to apply to all classes of her Majesty's subjects who entertained similar seruples. The Jews could not take the declaration contained in this Bill. But it was said why not bring in a separate Bill for the Jews? In his opinion, it would be infinitely better to tell them canidly at once, "Here we draw a line; we admit Quakers, Moravians, and Separatists, but we positively exclude all Jews and Scotch Cameronians from participating in the benefits of our
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toleration." He could not believe such had been the intention of those who brought in this Bill; nor could he at all comprehend the reason of that unintelligible feverish anxiety which seemed to be felt in some quarters with respect to the admission of the Jews. He hoped their Lordships would consult their own dignity, and, disregarding the crotchets of particular individuals, give generously and at once that relief to all classes of her Majesty's subjects, to which he maintained al were entitled. He should therefore, with this view, move after the words, "Quakers, Moravians, and Separatists," in the preamble, the introduction of these words, "and others," for the purpose of extending the provisions of the Bill to "every person entertaining conscientious scruples against taking an oath, or making a declaration in the nature of an oath."
The Earl of Shaftesburyvery much doubted whether under the title of the Bill, as it had come up from the Commons, it was competent for them to make such a complete change in the form and substance of the Bill. It was a Bill only for the relief of certain persons. He did not think they could so alter the whole measure as to make that relief general.
Lord Broughamdid not think their Lordships in any way bound by the title of the Bill.
The Earl of Shaftesburyinsisted that the Bill only contemplated certain parties.
Lord Broughammaintained the object of the Bill was to grant relief.
Lord Hollandthought it was quite competent for the House to entertain the amendment of his noble and learned Friend, although at the same time they must retain enough in the Bill to answer its general scope and intention as expressed in the preamble. As far as the Bill went it proceeded on a very benevolent and just principle, and that which was benevolent and just in legislation must always be politic and wise. But, although he was disposed to accept the Bill as it was, he confessed he did not think it went far enough. At the same time, there was something in the Bill to which he could not without great difficulty reconcile his mind. He had the greatest objection to call upon any man to declare what was his personal faith in religion, especially in reference to a particular religion of which the law took no cognizance. It looked very much like an attempt to establish a

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court of inquisition, which was altogether foreign to every principle of the British constitution. They called upon a man to declare himself a Quaker; on what grounds was any man to be called a Quaker? Was it because he might consider himself so, or because he was recognised as a Quaker by the Society of Friends? Suppose they repudiated him as one of the body; were they to examine his particular opinions, or turn him out of his office to incur the penalties of the law? He did not think this was necessary to the object of the Bill. The object of the Bill was at once to relieve tender consciences of this kind, and furnish to the establishment of the country that which at the lime of the repeal of the Test and Corporation Acts was considered a sufficient protection and security. The whole of that security and protection was contained in the latter part of the declaration. There was nothing in a man's declaring himself to be a Quaker, Moravian, or Separatist, that could afford any security to the establishment. The security did not consist in that, but in his affirming publicly, solemnly, and in the face of the world that he will not make use of the authority conferred on him by the office to work any injury to the establishment. Was that a sufficient security, or was it not? If not, would it be improved by designating him a Quaker, Moravian, or Separatist? A Jew might come in under the description of a "Separatist," but it was not necessary to make any nice distinctions. In his opinion, it would be better; and if his noble and learned Friend had not moved his amendment, he (Lord Holland) would have proposed to leave out all the words at the beginning of the declaration about Quakers, Moravians, and Separatists, so as to make it apply "generally to all having conscientious scruples."
Lord Broughamsaid, that was substantially his motion.
The Bishop of Londondid not think the actual state of the case was exactly as the noble Lord (Holland) had represented it. The noble Lord seemed to think that the real force of the declaration consisted in the pledge given by an individual, that he will not use any power, authority, or influence he may acquire by virtue of a municipal office to the overthrow or prejudice of the Church of England. That was a very important part of the declaration no doubt, but not the only part, nor
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that on which the great stress was laid, when, with considerable difficulty, the same parties now pressing forward this Bill induced their Lordships to consent to the repeal of the Test and Corporation Acts. It had hitherto been the policy of this country, that the Government, whether general or local, should be a Christian Government; and when the Test and Corporations Acts were repealed, it was strongly insisted that, at all events, they would not give up the security that those called on to administer office in the great council of the nation, or in the municipal corporations throughout the country, should be at least ostensibly Christians. And hence the words in the first part of the declaration of the Act of George 4th were, "I declare, on the faith of a Christian," &c. The difficulty which the Quakers, Moravians, and Separatists felt was not any difficulty as to making professions of security to the Established Church, but as to making any declaration which on the face of it was equivalent to an oath. They would not sacrifice the principle, if in place of an oath they permitted persons professedly Christians to make a declaration instead; but if the present amendment were adopted, they would at once abandon the principle. Without stating any decided opinion on this question, he did most strongly object to interposing by a side wind so important a change in the municipal government of the country as that advocated by the noble and learned Lord. Considering that the most important body, for whose relief it was intended, the Quakers, had to-night, in the petition presented by the noble Marquess, repudiated the relief proposed by the Bill—considering, also, that one of the other two classes comprised in the preamble, the Separatists, comparatively of recent date, and very inconsiderable in number, were almost wholly confined to Ireland, to which part of the United Kingdom the Bill did not apply, he thought it would be much better to postpone the Bill till a later period of the Session. At all events, he hoped their Lordships would not consent to either of the propositions made by the noble Lords.
The Marquess of Butedid not think the Bill in its present state creditable to the other House of Parliament. The amendment, however, of the noble and learned Lord would considerably improve it, and, if pressed to a division, be would vote for it.
The Marquess of Lansdowneadmitted the justice of the principle advocated by the noble and learned Lord. He was not indisposed to the extension of the provision of this Bill to Jews. If their Lordships thought as he did, that the tolerant character of the measure then before them ought to be extended, they ought not to be deterred from carrying out the bill, or rather the principle of the bill, to a still greater length. He did not object to the doctrines respecting the measure which had that night been advocated in their Lordships' House, but what he contended for was this, that the bill was not originaly so framed as to meet those views. So far he agreed with the noble Lords who had spoken; he agreed likewise with some of them in thinking that there was, and always must be, great difficulty in legislating upon subjects of this nature, where definitions respecting religious belief and opinions were required, for it was not easy to imagine how courts of law could enter upon such inquiries without assuming to themselves inquisitorial powers inconsistent with the principles of the British Constitution. He professed himself favourable to acting upon broad principles; but until a measure of that nature was introduced with full notice, he thought the most advisable course would be to pass this Bill at all events; for, as far as it went, it would be a positive gain, extending, as its enactments did, to the three denominations. Gradual relief had always been the practice of the Legislature, and an instance of it occurred only two years ago, when certain disabilities affecting the Separatists were unmoved. Then, further, he wished to observe, that in passing this Bill, which was confessedly good so far as it went, they did not preclude themselves from acting at a future time upon more extended principles. As he had before, in effect, said, he was perfectly willing hereafter, to support a measure for restoring rights enjoyed by religious sects, but he did not see how the present Bill could be extended, especially without previous notice. For these reasons he should feel bound to resist the amendment.
Lord Broughamobserved, that the arguments which had just fallen from the noble Marquess convinced him that in the speech just finished he ought to have arrived at a totally different conclusion. His noble Friend had told them that their arguments were unanswerable — that it
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would be vain to attempt any reply to their reasonings—that their data were beyond all possibility of dispute; but still his noble Friend declared that he should vote against them; and why? Simply because he agreed with them. He told them that they were likely to be defeated, and in the same breath he told them that he was resolved to deprive them of the least chance of escaping that defeat by declaring that he should vote against them. He doubted not that their Lordships must have felt no small astonishment at the process of reasoning by which the noble Marquess convinced himself that he ought to say to so many noble Lords in that House, "You desire to carry an extended measure, and so do I, but I will not support you." Could any man hesitate for a single moment to admit that a Jew or a Cameronian must feel himself stigmatised by the present Bill? Every religious sect not included in the description must feel it to be an invidious distinction, and to that extent must feel that he had been ill-treated —nay, placed in a worse situation than before as to any eventual chance of relief. The Bill professed mainly to let in the Quakers—they were the great body whom the promoters of the measure undertook to relieve; but what was the fact with regard to that numerous, important, and highly respectable class of men? They declared that they could not conscientiously avail themselves of the provisions of the Bill. He highly esteemed the Quakers as individuals, he venerated their principles, and admired their practice; he was, therefore unable to feel otherwise than grievously disappointed that a measure professing to be for their advantage should prove to them no advantage at all. In the petition which had been presented to their Lordships it was most distinctly stated by the committee of that body that the Bill would afford them no relief; and he begged it to be understood that this committee did represent the whole body, as much as the commission of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland represented the whole body of the General Assembly. This relation, his noble Friend, from his early education, would readily understand. It had been observed that the sects not admitted by the Bill comprised each no great number of individuals; but let it be recollected that the sects themselves were numerous, and that the aggregate of individuals was by no means inconsiderable—

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that they were scattered through every portion of the United Kingdom, and that the stigma cast upon the excluded would carry a sense of ill-treatment into every part of the country.
The Marquess of Lansdownebegged it to be understood, that though admitting the force of argument by which the amendment was supported, he yet considered such an amendment inadmissible in deliberating on such a Bill with such a notice; so large a principle as the mover of the amendment contemplated was inconsistent with a Bill so framed. The measure as it stood would let in the Separatists, Moravians, and Quakers. Let a larger measure be properly and regularly introduced, and it should have his support.
Lord Hollandagreed, that the course which his noble Friend proposed to take —namely, that of going on with the Bill in its present shape, was better calculated to secure success now, and to extend that success hereafter, than the other course which he, and those who thought with him, felt bound to take in supporting the amendment. No doubt, any noble Lord might support the Bill without being a jot less friendly to the more extended principle. His more immediate purpose, however, in rising, was to notice a remark which fell from a right rev. Lord near him. That right rev. Prelate appeared to him to contend that the purpose of the declaration was to ascertain the Christianity of the person chosen to fill an official situation. Now to him (Lord Holland) it did seem that that was not a matter within the province of human authority. It was contrary to that freedom which formed one of the foundations of Protestantism; and to admit such a principle into British legislation would be a step towards the establishment of an inquisition. It was directly the reverse of the principles upon which Parliament had always acted, with the exception of that blot upon our legislation, the sacramental test—English laws and Protestant and English Government were adverse to inquisitorial legislation. The Constitution recognised no power to inquire into men's thoughts on religious subjects. It was on the principle of the right to ascertain men's thoughts that the inquisition was founded, and every thing like an inquisition he was prepared to resist.
The Bishop of Londonhad purposely avoided putting forth any speculative
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principles, intending to reserve himself on those points to a future occasion. The declaration merely went to ascertain whether the party made a profession of Christianity or not, nothing more; and he must be allowed to say, that so long as any union subsisted between the Church and the State in this country, it could hardly fail to be thought necessary that persons holding office should at least come within the denomination of Christians.
Amendment negatived. Clause agreed to. House resumed.