Lords Sitting of 14 December 1837

MTNUTES.
Bill. Read a second time:—Juries at Quarter Sessions.
Petitions presented. By Lord FOLEY, from Worcester, against the expenses of Private Bills—By Lord BROUGHAM, from the London Mechanics Institution, for throwing open, free from charge, Public Institutions.

DUCHIES or CORNWALL AND LANCASTER.
Lord Broughamwished to ask the noble Duke opposite (Wellington) whether he had any objection to the accounts which he had given notice he should move for, relative to the Duchies of Lancaster and Cornwall, namely an account of the net ordinary revenue received by the Crown from the duchies for the years 1832, 1833, 1834, 1835, and 1836, distinguishing each year; and an account of the amount of the fines received from the Duchies for the same years, distinguishing each year.
The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, if those accounts had been produced to the other House of Parliament he could not object to their production to their Lordships; but if they had not been produced to the other House he should submit that those accounts ought not to be produced, because they were

1069
of a description that would tend to disclose circumstances relating to that which was undoubtedly private property.
Lord Ellenboroughsaid, the information which the noble Lord asked for would be of no value to him, because it would not lead to what he desired to know—namely how much the Crown had to receive in future. He apprehended the account had not been given to the House of Commons. Besides, he apprehended her Majesty had no authority to direct an account to be given of the receipts of his late Majesty. The servants of his late Majesty were, like the servants of any private individual, under an honourable obligation of secresy as to the transactions between them and their employers. There was no authority to compel them to produce those accounts, and he could not help thinking it would be a precedent of an injurious nature to compel their production. With regard to accounts relative to the future, that was a totally different thing, because if her Majesty directed her officers in those Duchies to give an account of the future receipt there could be no objection to that.
Lord Broughamsaid, the noble Baron was quite mistaken as to the use which he was pleased to suppose he (Lord Brougam) would make of them. Seven or eight years ago in the court of King's Bench, the whole mystery of these Courts was unravelled. He must positively confess that without much greater discussion than it was at all likely their Lordships could have on this subject, he could not admit that there was in this country any public department whatever which was not liable to the control and responsible to the authority of the Crown or of Parliament for the management of its affairs. It was said, indeed that the Crown could not compel the authorities of those duchies to render an account of their stewardship, because they were the servants of the late King. He had only to answer, that if the Crown could not compel them Parliament could. He could not understand on what ground it was supposed that these estates should be viewed as private estates. Even if it were granted their legitimate destination was a provision for the heir apparent to the Throne, still it would be necessary that they should be subjected to the control of Parliament.
Lord Aberdeenthought that it would be
1070
impossible for Ministers to accede to the motion of the noble and learned Lord. If the papers which he called for were granted no Ministry could afterwards refuse to make public all the details which the noble and learned Lord, or anybody else might require to be informed of respecting the affairs of those Duchies. In fact, it would be a surrender of the Duchies, their management, and an amalgamation of them with the other revenues of the Crown. It would be impossible afterwards to draw any distinction between the revenues of Lancaster and the hereditary revenues of the Crown. The noble Viscount opposite had no business to know anything at all about them, in his capacity of first Lord of the Treasury. All knowledge respecting them was sacredly confided to the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, and if he observed the oath which he had taken and by which he was bound to keep secret the affairs of the Duchy, it would be impossible for the House to obtain the information which the noble and learned Lord required. The House had no power to enforce the disclosures of such particulars. If the precedent was once admitted it must, in common sense, be followed up, and Parliament must take the control of these departments entirely out of the hands of the Crown. But he knew that the noble Viscount at the head of the Administration could advise her Majesty to dispense with the oath of the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, so as to permit him to disclose the confidential particulars of his department. If that were done in one instance he did not know in what way he could oppose the production of any document, however confidential connected with these feofs,
Lord Hollandsaid, he could receive no dispensation, except by command of her Majesty; and he had no authority to communicate this information either to individuals or to the House. He could not help observing that there was no question before the House, and under such circumstance it was very inconvenient to discuss the matter. He should recommend the House, therefore, to refrain from expressing any opinion, or entering further into the discussion.
Subject dropped.

UNION OF THE BISHOPRICS OF CARLISLE AND SODOR AND MAN.
The Earl of Riponrose, pursuant to notice, to

1071
present a number of petitions against the proposed annexation of the see of Sodor and Man to that of Carlisle. Their Lordships were aware that in 1836 an act was passed for remodelling the jurisdiction of certain episcopal sees. One of the recommendations of the commissioners, in conformity with whose report that bill was introduced, was to the effect, that whenever a vacancy occurred in the see of Sodor and Man, it should be united to the bishopric of Carlisle; and the prayer of the petitions which he was now about to present was, that their Lordships should reconsider this law, and should leave to the bishopric of Sodor and Man its ancient and separate jurisdiction. The petitions to which he would first call their Lordships' notice came from the clergy of Chester, the clergy of Wells, the clergy of Winchester, the clergy of Ripon, the clergy of Norwich, and certain inhabitants of Birmingham. He had also three other petitions which could not be said to proceed from persons ignorant of the subject, or who could be viewed as having only an indirect or remote interest in the object which the petitioners were anxious to attain. On the contrary, they came from individuals who, from personal experience and from the situations in which they were placed, were the best and most competent judges of a practical question of this nature. Those persons stated the deep regret with which they viewed the proposition for depriving them of their bishop, and they stated their reasons for wishing the old system to be continued. The first petition was that of the archdeacon and upwards of three fourths of the clergy engaged in the discharge of religious duties on the island—a body of persons well qualified, he apprehended, to judge of the necessity of having a resident bishop, on account of their profession as well as with reference to their constant intercourse with the diocesan. They stated, in the strongest manner, their opinion that this law was not demanded by any necessity, and that, so far from being beneficial, it would inevitably be attended with great practical inconvenience. The next petition was from the gentlemen who practised at the bar of the island. The situation which they held, and the profession to which they belonged, gave them innumerable opportunities of knowing what the bearing of the projected alteration would be with respect to questions of pro
1072
perty. They also implored their Lord-ships to re-consider this important subject. The last petition was one to which he attached very great importance. It was from the inhabitants of the island generally, signed by 1,600 persons, high and low, rich and poor, landed proprietors, merchants, shopkeepers, farmers,—in short, by individuals of every description. Now, he could not conceive a petition that could more reasonably claim serious attention than this, coming as it did from persons who could themselves accurately judge of the positive practical advantage of the existing system. He had heard no representation made that could fairly lead any one to suppose that there was a necessity for the proposed change; and when individuals who were the best judges of the cas expressed themselves decidedly against it, surely it was but reasonable and fair for their Lordships seriously to consider their objections. In the observations which he felt it to be his duty to make he utterly disclaimed any intention of impugning the conduct of the commissioners in making-this recommendation. Their duties, however, were specifically confined to England and Wales; and it might be a question, whether it were proper to give effect to a recommendation that did not come strictly within view of the functions of the commissioners as appointed under the sign manual. He knew, however, that the recommendation was contained in their report, and that recommendation had been embodied in a law. In point of fact, the Bishop of Sodor and Man exercised some functions with reference to the administration of certain laws which were very different from any possessed by other bishops. The power which he had was of a much more direct and stringent character than that exercised by bishops in England. This bishopric had existed, as a separate see, for 1,400 years, and was, he believed, if not the oldest, at least as old as any bishopric in the British dominions. Now, he could not perceive on what just principle it was proposed to annex the see of Sodor and Man to that of Carlisle. What, he would ask, was the course adopted with respect to the English bishoprics? It was proposed to reduce the extent of the very large sees, and to increase the extent of the smaller sees, where the duties were not so great. The principle on which these changes proceeded was, to take from the larger bishoprics that which

1073
was most inconvenient, and to add to the smaller bishoprics that which was most convenient, with reference to contiguity. This was obviously a beneficial principle, because, though certain sees were increased, and the duties connected with them enlarged, yet the additional distance to which the bishop had to go was not such, considering the facilities for communication, as was likely to diminish the intercourse that ought to exist between him and his clergy. But if they looked to the relative position of Sodor and Man and Carlisle, the very reverse of this principle was acted on, because the two bishoprics were separated by a see. The bishop could not, therefore travel very safely, neither was there any very quick mode of communicating with his clergy when it became necessary. If Carlisle were increased by adding the county of Westmorland, the bishop would in that case, find no difficulty in communicating with his clergy. But how was he to communicate with the clergy and people of the Isle of Man? He could not reside there, that was impossible. He was charged with duties elsewhere, which could not be left unperformed, and he could not be in a situation to discharge the duties which he ought to perform in the Isle of Man, when an ocean was rolling between the two divisions of his see. The local legislature had in the course of the last century, passed an act for the purpose of insuring the residence of the bishop on the island. It was enacted, that if he were absent for more than four months in any one year, except in consequence of illness, he should be liable to a heavy penalty. Now, he would ask, how was it possible, under the altered system, for the bishop to obey that law? It was passed by the legislature of the island, because they thought that the interests of religion would be best served by the constant residence of the bishop; and he would contend, that if the two bishoprics were united, it would be utterly impossible for the Bishop of Carlisle to comply with the terms of that act. He could not, in other words, comply with that provision which the local legislature thought essential to the interests of the Church of England, on the island. He entertained very great doubts whether Parliament could constitutionally abrogate that Act. But if Parliament were called on to interfere, a case of strong necessity ought to be made out before they meddled with the
1074
rights of the independent Legislature of the Isle of Man. The law of the island said—"The bishop must reside here;" but the bishop might answer—"It is impossible; situate as I am, I cannot reside on the island." During the short time he was Prime Minister a vacancy occurred in the see of Sodor and Man, when it was urged upon him to make some change in the character of the bishopric. So strongly, however, did he feel the importance of preserving its integrity, that he refused to entertain the proposal, and offered the see to a clergyman of high character, talents, and acceptability as an author, who then refused it, but who now held the bishopric of Chester. On that rev. gentleman declining it, he appointed the present bishop, because he knew his zeal, his acquirements, his determination to discharge to the utmost the sacred duties of the episcopal office; and he could now refer with confidence to the success and advantage which had attended his efforts. The great evil felt in the island was the want of churches. The people themselves being poor, their means of contribution were of course very small; and the present bishop by his personal exertions had been enabled to raise, through an appeal to the benevolence, piety, and charity of his friends in England, between 8,000 l. and 9.000 l., and in the parishes of the island nearly 4,000 l. to be applied to the increase of church accommodation. Several additional churches were built, some were enlarged, and others in a state of delapidation were substantially repaired. Such had been the success which had attended that part of the present bishop's labours. Then as to another point—nobody could doubt the importance of education in an island situate like that of Man. Bishop Barrow had left out of his own resources a sum of money to be invested in land for the purpose of providing gratuitous education to a limited number of persons desirous of being brought up to the Manx church. The land having considerably increased in value, the bishop thought it advisable to endeavour to augment it by contributions among his private friends, and accordingly, 6,000 l. having been collected, a college was established in the island, where 200 persons received, without any religious test or distinction, the benefits of a liberal and excellent education. Without any considerations of personal interest, the

1075
present bishop, out of his very limited income, had himself subscribed 1,200 l. On these grounds he asked, could it be doubted that the island had received the most substantial benefits from the residence and personal ministrations of the bishop? But the chief ground, he was aware, for merging the bishopric of Sodor and Man in the see of Carlisle was, that while the episcopal duties might be sufficiently well performed by a partial residence in the island, the revenues of the see might most appropriately and usefully be applied towards the maintenance of an archdeacon, and in augmenting the income of the poorer clergy. He was ready to admit, that the poorer clergy were most inadequately paid, and that some measures should be adopted in order to increase their personal comforts. But that object could, he maintained, be effected by other means, altogether unobjectionable, without violating any principle, and in perfect conformity with the wishes, feelings, and asserted interests, of the people of the island, without touching or alienating the revenues of the bishopric. The clergy themselves, whose stipends would be increased by the plan of the Commissioners, used these words in their petition—"As to enriching the parochial clergy by the spoils of their bishop, your petitioners dislike the principle and dread the example. They affect not, indeed, to conceal, that the vicars are in straitened, in lamentably straitened, circumstances, from which they would gratefully accept honourable relief; but they disclaim any wish to accept temporal relief at the expense of spiritual loss." Such were the sentiments of the clergy themselves with respect to the proposed mode of granting them an augmentation of income; but did there not exist the means of increasing their comforts without depriving them of their bishop? The island contained seventeen parishes, some of them very large and populous, of which thirteen were in the gift of the Crown, and four in the gift of the bishops. Of the thirteen there were no less than seven in which the Crown was not only patron, but lay impropriator of the great tithes, the clergymen in those cases deriving their support from the small tithes and a fund created a long time since by the bounty of Bishop Barrow. He did not see why his noble Friend at the head of the Government should not advise her Majesty to apply to
1076
the maintenance of those poor vicars the amount of the great tithes, 800 l. a-year, or at least a portion of it. If he hesitated to give the whole, 518 l. of the 800 l. would raise them all to the moderate sum of 150 l. a-year and no more. He could not conceive any objection, in feeling or in principle of any kind, to so moderate and reasonable a proposition. The bishop as a patron of four, received the great tithes, and would not be backward in increasing the incomes of the clergy to a corresponding amount. He was authorised to say so on his behalf. He was prepared, at once, if the bishopric were preserved, to contribute out of the tithes he derived from those four parishes an equivalent sum, so as to raise the incomes of the vicars to the 150 l. a-year. A considerable sum, amounting to several thousand pounds, had also been placed in the hands of the bishop without any express direction as to the mode or object of its appropriation, which, on the condition of maintaining the bishopric, he was ready to apply to the same purposes. He begged pardon for having taken up so much of their Lordships' time; he hoped, however, he had said enough to induce the Government or the Commissioners to reconsider this case. A re-consideration of it in some shape was inevitable, for the law could not execute itself, there being no provision in the Act making over the temporalities of the bishopric, if it should be merged in that of Carlisle, to increase the vicars' stipends.
The Archbishop of Canterburydid not think it necessary, from the tone which the noble Earl had adopted throughout his speech, to enter at any length into a vindication of the course which the Commissioners had pursued; at the same time, he felt bound to state the simple grounds on which the Commissioners had acted. Among the various duties imposed on them was that of considering the best means of obtaining a more equal distribution of the episcopal duties; and while, on the one hand, there were dioceses comprising from 1,000 to 1,200, and 1,400 livings, with a population amounting, in one instance, to 2,000,000, and in two others to 1,500,000; and, on the other hand, a diocese of seventeen parishes, with a population, at the utmost, of 45,000 by the last census—he did not think they would have executed the duties assigned to them, if they had proposed no alteration

1077
with respect to that small diocese. The high antiquity of the bishopric had been brought forward, but in its present state its antiquity was by no means so great as had been represented. It had existed in its present state only 400 years, as confined to the single island; for the 1,000 years preceding, it formed part of a very large diocese, which combined the Western Isles of Scotland. He was ready to admit the see of Man had given many distinguished names to the Church; and from the zeal and liberality of the present bishop, he was not surprised the inhabitants of the island were anxious to retain him amongst them. But, making every allowance, he thought the Commissioners would not have been justified in passing over so small a bishopric, without recommending some such alteration as had been proposed. The noble Earl had made a proposition, by which the clergy of the Isle of Man would receive 150 l. per annum, without touching the revenues of the bishopric; but if it were acted upon, he did not think they would be adequately provided for. The objection to the existing arrangement, on the ground of the non-residence of the bishop, was not, in his opinion, tenable; inasmuch as communications were now made by the clergy, through the archdeacon, to a higher authority. As it appeared to him, then, the present plan, as far as it went, was a very good one. In some of the petitions presented by the noble Earl, he was sorry to be obliged to say, the conduct of the Commissioners was represented in rather an invidious manner. They spoke of the bishopric having been abolished in terms which implied that the Commissioners had acted without having any other object in view than its extinction. But it was impossible the Commissioners could have had any interest in proposing such a measure. True it was, that the bishopric itself was extinct, but then the jurisdiction had been transferred to another see, and so far existed, as in every other case where two bishoprics had been united, and held by one Bishop. That, he apprehended, was no very uncommon thing. There had been sufficient time between the period at which the report of the Commissioners had been laid on their Lordships' table and the passing of the Act for proposing any alterations that might be deemed useful; but now that the Act was in force, and after it had been deliberately discussed and
1078
agreed upon by their Lordships, be thought it would be attended with inconvenience to alter it. Whether, however, that law should be continued in force, or whether they adopted the plan proposed by the noble Earl for the relief of the clergy of the Isle of Man, he should be exceedingly sorry to see them left in their present state of poverty and destitution.
The Bishop of Chester.said, the strong feelings of the inhabitants of the Isle of Man ought to be taken into consideration by their Lordships. He was also of opinion that great inconvenience would arise to the bishop out of the union of the two bishoprics.
The Bishop of London.observed, that the proposal of the Commissioners for the extinction of the bishopric of Sodor and Man having been termed an innovation, he begged to say that such an accusation was unjust. So far from its being an innovation, their Lordships were aware that there had been repeated instances of the union of sees, either from their poverty, the proximity of the churches, or the paucity of the inhabitants, and that these could not be termed innovations. The union of Bristol and Glocester, for instance, was now generally approved of, although inconvenience had been for some time felt, as at present by the inhabitants of Sodor and Man, at the loss of their bishop. He thought, therefore, that the Commissioners had nothing to reproach themselves with either in point of principle or effect. The union of Sodor and Man had been advised by no less a person than the late Archbishop of Canterbury, than whom there was no one more competent, from his extensive knowledge of the subject, to give an opinion on it. The objection on the ground of personal inconvenience to the bishop to whose see that of Sodor and Man was to be united was, he conceived, to be met by the fact that intercourse by post could be sufficiently precise, accurate, and effective, to prevent the necessity on the part of the bishop of visiting those islands.
The Bishop of salisbury, observed, that,, conceiving as he did that a clear and decided advantage should be shown to have resulted, and to be likely still to result, from the recent change to induce them to continue it, and seeing that a strong, and, he believed, a general feeling prevailed amongst the clergy on the subject, he would recommend to their Lord-

1079
ships, and to those in particular with whom the plan emanated, to take the whole matter again into their consideration.
Petitions laid on the table.

MUNICIPAL OFFICERS' DECLARATION.
The Marquess of Lansdownerose to move the second reading of the Bill for the relief of Quakers, Moravians, and Separatists, which had been sent up from the other House of Parliament. He should perhaps, best consult their Lordships' convenience, after the discussion which had taken place, if he confined himself to a very few remarks. As far as he had been able to ascertain, he did not apprehend that there would be any objection offered to the principle of the measure by any of their Lordships; but if there should be any noble Lord who might consider it either not sufficiently comprehensive, or too much so, the most convenient stage for stating his objections to it would be in Committee. He would therefore merely state, that the object of this bill was to extend to the particular sects enumerated in it the benefits of the act of George 4th commonly called the act for the Repeal of the Test Acts. To the declaration prescribed by that act certain of those sects entertained conscientious scruples which excluded them from the benefits of it; or, to speak more properly, the community had, in consequence thereof, been deprived of the services of those individuals in particular municipal offices to which they might otherwise have been elected. Happy as he should be, and happy and desirous as he was sure their Lordships would feel, to extend to any respectable portion of her Majesty's subjects any such benefits they might seek to obtain, it was not upon that ground so much that he recommended this bill to their Lordships 'favourable consideration, as upon the ground of the benefits to be derived by the community at large, by enabling all capable persons to discharge civil duties, and more particularly that class of duties to which this bill related, namely, those of municipal offices. In the bill recently passed on that subject, the liability of all abuse was guarded against in the discharge of those municipal duties, and he certainly did not think they were of a nature so peculiar as that they should not be accessible to all classes of persons, who were qualified by virtue and morality to discharge them, if called upon. The chief ob-
1080
jection entertained by that large body of persons, commonly called Quakers and Moravians, and also by those called Separatists, was, that they considered the words of the declaration described by the act as being too much in the nature of an oath, and therefore creating in their minds conscientious scruples. The words of the declaration were, "I solemnly, sincerely, and in the presence of God, protest, testify, and declare upon the true faith of a Christian, that I will, &c." It was proposed by the bill to substitute another form of declaration, which would be free from the objection alluded to. It would contain an assurance in every respect as effective, but would exclude the obnoxious words.
Bill read a second time.