Lords Sitting of 13 May 1836

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a second time:—Alien Registration.
Petitions presented. By several NOBLE LORDS, from various Places, for the Better Observance of the Sabbath By the Earl of ABINGDON, from Wantage, for an Extension of the Time to pay off the Money for building Workhouses.—By the Marquess of WESTMINSTER, from the Prisoners of Chester Castle, for the Abolition of Debt, except in Cases of Fraud; and from Kingston-upon-Hull, in favour of Municipal Corporations' (Ireland) Bill.

POOR-LAWS (IRELAND).
The Duke of Leinsterpresented a Petition from the inhabitants of Dublin, praying that a system of Poor-laws might be applied to that country, based upon the 43rd of Elizabeth. The petition was most respectably signed, having amongst the names of other most respectable inhabitants of Dublin annexed to it, those of the mayor and sheriffs of that city. He hoped that some system of Poor-laws would be adopted for Ireland, although he did not go the length of concurring in the prayer of the petitioners.
The Earl of Malmesburyhad expressed his intention of putting a question to the noble Lord opposite (Lord Melbourne) on the subject of this petition, and that he had been told by the noble Lord that he might put the question whenever he pleased. He had not as yet acted on this suggestion, nor did he mean to do so on the present occasion, further than to say, that it would be most satisfactory if the noble Lord who represented the Government in that House, were to intimate what course they meant to pursue on this important question. Some declaration of this description would be most acceptable, not only to the people of Ireland, but to the people of this country, who felt a strong desire, from the fact that the result of the wretched condition of the people of Ireland tended to overstock the English market, to know whether the Government were prepared to bring forward any measure this Session, not for the maintenance of the idle, but for the support of the aged and infirm. No one could read the Report of the Commissioners without feeling that the present state of the poor of Ireland constituted an evil of so crying a nature that he could scarcely make up his mind to approve of all redress being postponed till next Session of Parliament.
The Marquess of Downshire, whilst he admitted the existence of the evil which had been so justly complained of, still felt hound to acknowledge, that to deal with it properly and effectually was a most difficult task. He was as desirous as any noble Lord could be to see the people of Ireland really and permanently comfortable; but the great obstacle to any efforts to bring about so desirable a result was the unfortunate but unquestionable difference which existed between the inhabitants of the north and the south of Ireland, and the consequent necessity which was imposed of legislating in such a manner as to meet the exigencies of both cases. With respect to a provision for the aged and infirm poor, he imagined that no difference of opinion existed, but it
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was with regard to the employment of the people and the administration of the money to be paid by the public that all the difficulties which encompassed the settlement of this question were presented in their true light. He felt inclined to support any measure which was fairly and properly brought before Parliament on this question, though he must say, that he should prefer waiting for a short time to see how that important measure (the Poor-law Amendment Act) operated in England before any measure of a like description was proposed for adoption with regard to Ireland.
Lord Fitzgerald and Vescihad been requested by some of the inhabitants of Dublin to support the prayer of this petition. In doing so he begged to say, that, in his opinion, there was no doubt of the importance and necessity of taking some steps towards the adjustment of this question. The noble Marquess who had just sat down anticipated what he was about to express with reference to it—namely, that however anxious he was for the settlement of this question, on public grounds and the grounds of necessity—however desirous he was that the wants of the poor of Ireland should be provided for, he did not wish to press the Government unnecessarily and prematurely to adopt any measure which would not be permanent and beneficial in its effects. It was impossible to read the evidence taken before the Commissioners, or the summary which they had submitted to the House—and which, he was bound to say, displayed admirable industry, discretion, and ability in the discharge of a public duty—without being persuaded not only of the necessity of applying some relief to the distresses of the poor of Ireland, but also of the expediency of not acting rashly and precipitately on this subject. He begged further to say, that whilst he approved of the general objects of a measure for the relief of the poor, by which employment would be afforded, and the means for that employment supplied, he did not approve of the prayer of the petitioners for the extension of the Act of Elizabeth to Ireland, because such a general enactment would, in his opinion, aggravate the evils which at present existed. Whilst he expressed that opinion he begged to be understood as being one of the strenuous advocates for a measure of extensive, permanent, and effectual relief to the poor of Ireland, which might have the effect of putting a stop to the present distress, as well as extinguishing the propensity to outrage and violence, which now unhappily

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characterised the people of that country.
The Duke of Richmondsaid, that a great portion of the people of this country felt dissatisfied, and he thought justly, that the grievances under which the Irish people laboured, and which were so well depicted in the Report of the Commissioners, did not appear to be likely to be speedily redressed. It was because he thought Poor-laws for Ireland the best means of getting rid of those who ought to remain at home that he had ever been the advocate of them. It was because he thought that those who found themselves under the necessity of constantly leaving their homes in search of employment were never so well satisfied and contented as those who could fairly entertain the hope of procuring general employment at their own place of abode, that he had always supported a system of Poor-laws for Ireland. He hoped that, before long, his Majesty's Government would introduce a measure on this question. If they did not do so shortly, their Lordships would not be able to give that immediate consideration to the subject which it imperatively required.
The Earl of Wicklowhighly approved of the able and statesmanlike Report of the Commissioners. He did not think that any blame could be attached to his Majesty's Government if they were not prepared with a bill on this most difficult subject in the course of the present Session. If the noble Duke (Richmond) had assured the House that the people of this country required that some system of Poor-laws should be adopted with respect to Ireland, he must express his hope that the attention of Government would not be directed to this question on the ground which the noble Duke had stated. He hoped they would legislate only with reference to the circumstances of the country to which their attention was directed. There appeared to him to be a palpable contradiction in the statement of the noble Earl (Malmesbury); for, in the first place, he called for a system of Poor-laws for Ireland in consequence of the influx of Irish labourers into this country; whilst, in the next place, he admitted that the only measure which ought to be applied was one for the relief of the aged, infirm, and impotent. If the people of England had a right to complain at all, was it on account of the influx of the impotent, the blind, the helpless, and the aged? No! If complaint was justified at all it was in consequence of the intrusion of the
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able bodied. He trusted that relief would be given to the poor of the country; but he feared that no system of Poor-laws, such at least as that which seemed generally contemplated, would prevent the able-bodied labourers from emigrating.
The Marquess of Westmeathwas of opinion, in accordance with the views of the landlords in the west of Ireland, that if the people of that part of the country remained at home and attended to their natural callings, instead of to politics, there would be no necessity either for the noble Duke (Richmond) or the noble Earl (Malmesbury) to complain of the influx of the Irish labourers into this country.
The Earl of Malmesburywished to say, in explanation, that the complaint of the agriculturists of this country was, that the land here had to bear the burdens of the poor rate, the assessed taxes, and land tax, whilst the produce of Ireland, as well as those who ought to be the consumers of it, was transferred to this country. He did not wish to press the Government to act prematurely; but he thought that if the Ministers were to say whether or not they would introduce a measure for the relief of the aged and infirm, it would be most satisfactory to the people of this country.
The Marquess of Clanricardeagreed with those who thought the question of the employment of the able-bodied labourers was perfectly distinct from some provision for the starving poor of Ireland. He disagreed with those who thought that the influx of Irish labourers tended to impoverish this country; for the fact was, that the most comfortable and able-bodied of the Irish—the cream, in fact, of the men of that country—came over to the agricultural districts of this country; and when they were unable to procure employment there, repaired to the manufacturing towns, where they contributed their share to that skill and industry by which this country was raised to its present state of greatness.
The Duke of Richmond, in explanation, begged to say, that the chief ground on which he advocated a legal provision for the poor of Ireland was that of humanity.
The Marquess of Lansdownedid not wish, in the absence of his noble Friend (Lord Melbourne), to protract this discussion. The noble Lords opposite, however, were not to suppose that because the Government did not hastily bring forward any measure on this subject that it had

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escaped their attention, or that their attention would not be bestowed upon it with all the anxiety which was demanded by its important bearings on the moral and political character of the whole population of Ireland, which was involved in the question. The House would feel that it would be extremely improper in him—not being prepared to bring forward any measure on the subject, and not being prepared, he must admit, to state at what particular time such a measure would be brought forward—to go into a discussion of the topics which had been introduced in the course of the debate. As he had said, this question, in its general bearings, not only engaged the attention of Government, but they looked at it with the view of detaching any part of the question from the whole, upon which it might be considered advisable to legislate instantaneously. He would say, that it was impossible to propose any measure on the subject in the course of the present session, without considering its bearings on every part of the question, particularly when it was recollected that one false step with regard to a measure which involved the interest of the population of Ireland might be the means of increasing the difficulties which Parliament would have ultimately to contend with. It was also most important, that before any measure was adopted the suggestions which had been made in the valuable Report of the Commissioners should be extensively circulated for the purpose of obtaining every species of practical information with respect to it.
The Earl of Winchilseawould not press the Government to any hasty measure on this question. He would not take any other ground in advocating a system of Poor-laws for Ireland than the sole one of humanity. It was obvious that want, distress, misery and starvation, existed to an unparalleled degree in that country, and it was equally obvious that had there been a provision for the poor, such would not now be the condition of the people. With regard to the Irish labourers who came over here, he could not concur in the opinion, that it was injurious to England. On the contrary, it was in many instances of great advantage to this country. On one occasion, in Lincolnshire, when the labourers did not arrive at the expected time, great apprehensions were entertained for the safety of the crops, lest they could not be got in, and many calculations were made as to whether the weather was favourable
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for their arrival. Had they not arrived in time to assist in the harvest the crops would have been lost. He hoped, however, that none of their Lordships would advocate a Poor-rate for Ireland on any such narrow ground as this; but at the same time he would express as fervent a hope, that no honest English labourer should ever suffer from an overstocked labour market.
Petition laid on the Table.