Lords Sitting of 30 March 1836

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a third time:—Bankruptcy, (Ireland)
Petitions presented. By the Duke of LEINSTER, from Antrim, in favour of Mr. Buckingham's Claim.—By Viscount MELBOURNE, from Glasgow, for a repeal of that portion of the Abolition of Slavery Bill relating to Apprentices.— By several NOBLE LORDS from various places for Alteration of Ecclesiastical Courts Consolidating Bill.—By Lord HATHERTON, from Plymouth, for an alteration in the Corn Laws—By Lord TEMPLEMORE, from Sutton in Wexford, for the Abolition of Tithes.—By Lord LYNDHURST, from Dublin, against the Corporations' Reform (Ireland) Bill; and from Bristol, against the Suppression of the Bishopric of Bristol.

LETTER STEALING, (SCOTLAND).
The Duke of Richmondstated, that he trusted that this Bill would be altered. He believed that the object of this Bill was to prevent Magistrates in Scotland taking bail in cases of letter-stealing, which they were now able to do. This he thought was going against the principle of a measure that was passed last year, by which the powers of taking bail were enlarged. He did not see why there should be any alteration in the great object in view—namely, that no person should be sent to gaol if he could get sufficient security that he would appear and take his trial in due course of law. This principle had been established in England, and, he believed, also in Scotland, by the recent Act; but by this Bill the power of taking bail was taken from the Magistrates of

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Scotland, and the Court of Justiciary alone could do so in cases of letter-stealing. He knew that the prisons in Scotland were in a much worse condition than in England. If then they wished to prevent men being committed to a gaol in England, still much more should they endeavour to do so in Scotland, for offences in which bail could instantly be taken. He did not wish to throw out the Bill, but he was anxious to call the attention of the Government to the subject, and would suggest that the measure should be postponed till after the holidays.
The Lord Chancellorobserved, that the Bill did not prevent bail being taken, but pointed out the mode in which it should be taken for offences of this nature in Scotland. He understood that bail could not be taken by Magistrates in cases of this kind.
The Earl of Haddingtonrecommended that the measure should be postponed until after the holidays.
The Duke of Richmondremarked, that by this Bill bail could only be taken before the Justiciary Court, which was most expensive, and would prevent those who lived at a distance from Edinburgh from obtaining bail at all.
The Earl of Roseberyadmitted, that the Committee up stairs were of opinion that it was very desirable to allow bail to be taken in as many cases as possible. He, therefore, thought that it would be better to postpone the Bill, that they might see whether it could not be improved in this respect. If the object of the measure was to render the taking of bail more effective than at present, he believed that there would be no objection to it on the part of his noble Friend. If, however, it was to narrow the power of admitting persons to bail charged with these offences, it would require very serious consideration.
Measure postponed.

INTERCOURSE BETWEEN THE UNITED KINGDOM AND AMERICA.
The Duke of Leinster The Duke of Leinster moved for a Select Committee to inquire into the existing facilities for intercourse between the United Kingdom and our American colonies, and to consider what improvement can be made therein.
The Marquess of Lansdownedid not rise to oppose the motion of his noble Friend, out he wished to observe, that he agreed in thinking it desirable that a Committee should be appointed in that House to inquire into this subject, which, indeed, was one of national importance.
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In giving his concurrence, however, to the motion, he did so in the full confidence that the meaning and object of the noble Duke was, to inquire into the means of facilitating the communication between the United Kingdom and the British colonies in North America, and not to direct attention to, or recommend one particular port through which the communication should be carried on. He thought that a great portion of this question was connected with a subject with which it was the duty of the Government intimately to inform themselves, and to gain that information from engineer officers who were not likely to be tainted or influenced by personal interests or considerations. He knew, that in consequence of the possibility of such an inquiry his noble Friend at the head of the Admiralty had taken steps to obtain the best information on the subject. He had directed inquiry to be made as to the best ports in Ireland for carrying on communication with America. There could be no doubt that this part of the subject had better be left in the hands of the Admiralty, by whom it would be adequately performed, than be assigned to persons who had private interests to consult. It was not only a fit subject in a commercial point of view for the serious attention of the House, but also in a military sense, and he had no doubt but that the inquiry of the Committee would lead to important and beneficial results. He would, however, suggest to his noble Friend to render the subject of his motion clear and explicit by making a slight alteration in the words of it, to the following effect:—"That a Committee be appointed to inquire into the means of facilitating the existing intercourse between the United Kingdom and our American colonies."
Motion as amended, agreed to.

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGIOUS ESTABLISHMENTS.
The Duke of Newcastlerose to move for certain Returns relative to Roman Catholic Establishments in this country. He was most unwilling to trouble their Lordships, but he felt it to be a duty incumbent on him to do so on that occasion. The object he had in view was to call upon the House to do all in their power to protect the Protestant religion in this country against any open or insidious attacks that might be made on it. He believed that the Returns he in-

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tended to move for, would, if accurately furnished, do much to inform their Lordships as to the dangerous increase that had lately taken place in the number of Roman Catholics. He felt that the religion of the country was endangered by this, and therefore he contended that they were called upon to do all in their power to rescue it from the situation in which it was placed. His attention had been recently called to this subject in consequence of some observations which he had seen in a newspaper, and certainly they were well worthy of the consideration of the House. He would beg leave to read to their Lordships an extract he had found in the Newcastle journal.
"Respecting Great Britain, we have information of its progress of a painful character. About forty years since, there were but thirty chapels in Great Britain; in the year 1835 there were 510. In that year eleven new ones have been built. In Dover, and also in Kidderminster, a Protestant chapel has been converted into a Papal chapel. They will—with praiseworthy zeal if it were in a right cause,— build a chapel where they have not a dozen members; and this chapel is sometimes filled, by the zeal of those members, from the neighbourhood. There are said to be now 700 ecclesiastics in this island, and they have resorted in several places to preaching in the open air. Popish colleges and seminaries are multiplying, and these are modern institutions. There are now eight Popish colleges and fifty-two seminaries; and in many of them great decorum and application to their object is manifested; Monasteries and nunneries are also beginning. With these efforts are connected several tract societies; they have been very active in distributing tracts in favour of Popery at the doors of meetings and churches; and the Scotch church, near Covent-Garden, at the evening service in the church. They have formed schools adapted to attract the children of the poor, giving public breakfasts and clothing the children, and thus getting the parents to attend mass. The chief body of the reporters for the public journals are said to be Irish papists. While a few of the higher classes, many of the lower, it is believed, have been entrapped into this snare of the enemy. In Scotland there once were but very few Roman Catholic families, there are now, in Glasgow, 30,000 Roman Catholics; and it is believed that there has been an increase of Popery in the eastern as well as the western coast. I am credibly informed that since the year 1815, large sums have been remitted from the Continent to this country and Ireland, for the purpose of promoting Popery; my informant puts the sum at 400,000 l. and slated the name of the person to whom the distribution of it is assigned."
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The passage he had read purported to be taken from a book recently published on the progress of Popery, and written by the rev. Edward Bickersteth. He had said enough he was sure to convince their Lordships of the danger which threatened the country, and he would conclude by moving for Returns of all Roman Catholich chapels, with the dates of their erection; also Returns of all monastic establishments, distinguishing whether for monks or nuns, together with the number in each; also for a return of all Roman Catholic colleges and seminaries in England and Wales, distinguishing those which belonged to the Jesuits; and also of the number of Roman Catholics in Great Britain in the year 1799, and their progressive increase down to the present time. If this latter Return could not be made, he would propose that a Retina should be made of the number in 1828, and each year to 1835.
Viscount Melbournehad no objection to some of the returns moved for by the noble Duke, as he did not see that any harm could arise from them; but he wished to state, with respect to several points of the motion, that they could not he complied with, as the information called for could not be obtained, Government having no power to enforce the communication of it. They could make the return as to the number of licensed places of Roman Catholic worship, as they could of all other dissenting places of worship, and also the dates when they were certified, in order to be licensed. These returns could, without difficulty, be obtained from the clerks of the peace in the several counties. The second motion, with respect to the monastic establishments, and the number of residents in each, the noble Duke knew that there was a provision in the Roman Catholic Relief Bill requiring a register of all males in the monastic establishments, and if, after that period, any members were admitted, there were severe penalties for not complying with the Act, and the parties in such establishments would be liable to punishment as guilty of misdemeanour. Nunneries were excepted from the Act, therefore it was competent for persons to establish them; but they could not obtain any information respecting them from which anything like just conclusions should be drawn. As to Roman Catholic colleges and seminaries, he would only observe that, as it was competent for any persons to establish such places for the education of persons

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in the Roman Catholic religion, he did not see how they could prevent it, nor could they obtain any returns respecting their institutions any more than regarding those of other Dissenters, or belonging to the members of the Establishment. With respect to information regarding the number of Roman Catholics in England since 1799 he would only add, that there were no means for ascertaining it. There was a recent return in Ireland distinguishing the number of Catholics from Protestants, but no returns of the kind had been made in this country. He believed, by the Act for the relief of the Roman Catholics, Jesuits, and members of other monastic orders were allowed to live in this country, provided they sent in their names to the Secretary of State. So far, therefore, information might be furnished, but with respect to many of the returns it was utterly impossible to make them.
The Duke of Newcastlethought that they might obtain the information he called for, by requiring the parish clergy to make returns. The truth was, that Roman Catholic chapels were raising in all directions, and Popery was spreading, and yet it was regarded with apathy. He had received a letter on this subject from a gentleman who did not sign his name to it, in which it was stated, that a very large Roman Catholic establishment had been erected at St. Leonard's near Hastings, and which looked more like a fortress than anything else. It was notorious, that there was a large Jesuit monastic establishment at Stoneyhurst, and he had seen the bull by which it was established, and it was described to be of the Jesuits' order. He believed that, by the Relief Act, members of the Jesuits' society might come to England on obtaining a licence from the Secretary of State; but he should like to know in how many instances this had been complied with. He trusted that their Lordships would go along with him in desiring to abolish such places as he had alluded to, which were called seminaries, but which (as we understood the Noble Duke to say) he could not help regarding as a pestilence. He trusted that their Lordships would support him in pressing for the returns he had moved for.
Lord Hollandobserved, that with respect to many of these clauses, Parliament had no power to obtain information. They had no right to inquire as to what religion a man professed. To adopt the means proposed by the Noble Duke to carry on the
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inquiry, would be in effect doing nothing more nor less than giving to the Protestant clergy of Great Britain the Popish power of confession as to the tenets of a man's religion. Supposing the noble Duke's suggestion was adopted, he should like to know by what means a clergyman of a parish would learn the religion of every person in his parish. He held that the first doctrine of the Protestant religion was, that no man had a right to say or to judge what were the religious opinions of another.
The Earl of Haddingtonsaid, that there was no doubt that what had fallen from his noble Friend as to the difficulties the parochial clergy would experience in making their returns, was to a great degree, true; but this did not apply to the religious seminaries. He thought that the noble Duke was entitled to the information if it could be furnished to him; he would, therefore, recommend him to add to his motion the words, "as far as they can be obtained."
The Marquess of Clanricardethought that, though the returns as a mere matter of curiosity might be sufficiently interesting, yet no Parliamentary grounds had been laid before their Lordships to induce them to consent to their being made but. Was it the noble Lord's intention to move the repeal of the Roman Catholic Relief Bill, or to ground any such proceeding upon these returns, if they were made? He had no objection to the returns being granted, as far as it was possible they could be made, but he repeated, no Parliamentary grounds had been laid for the motion.
Lord Wharncliffethought it was impossible to comply with some part of the motion of the noble Duke.
The Marquess of Lansdowne, on behalf of the parochial clergy of the country, protested against their Lordships imposing so arduous a duty on them as was proposed by the noble Duke. What was to prevent any of their Lordships, if this motion were complied with, from calling upon the parochial clergy of the country to furnish a return of the number of Baptists, Methodists, or of any other sect, if such a return he might find necessary either to gratify his curiosity, or appease his apprehension? Any noble Lord in that House who might have a desire to put down those "pestilences," as the noble Duke was pleased to term those bodies of conscientious men who had formed themselves into societies through the country, might, upon that pretence, call for returns, to which it would be quite

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impossible for their Lordships to consent. No matter, however, what the nature of the motion might be, he protested against any Peer of that House applying such a term to any society of conscientious Christians, of whatever denomination. So far as any information could be obtained; he had no objection to its being given; but he once more protested against imposing the duty on the parochial clergy.
The Marquess of Clanricardebegged to remind the Noble Duke (Newcastle) that the Jesuits, as an order, were as fully suppressed by the Pope as the noble Duke himself could desire.
The Duke of Newcastlehoped their Lordships would not let it go forth to the country that they had refused any information in their power on this important subject. He should advertise in the public papers for any information that could be forwarded to him on this subject.
The Earl of Winchilseasaid, that the provisions of the Relief Bill, relating to monasteries and societies of Jesuits had been evaded.
The motion amended was agreed to.