Lords Sitting of 10 March 1836

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By Lord SEGRAVE, from Stroud, for Relief to the Dissenters.—By Lord LYNDHURST, from the Debtors Confined in the Prisons of London and Middlesex, against Imprisonment for Debt.— By the Earl of RODEN, from St. Clement's Danes, for the Better Observance of the Sabbath.—By Lords LYNDHURST and WYNFORD, from two Places,—for Relief to the Agricultural Interest.—By Lord HOLLAND, from two Dissenting Congregations, for Relief to the Dissenters.— By the Duke of RUTLAND, from Castle Dermot, against Tithes in Ireland—By the Duke of LEINSTER, from a Parish in Dublin, for granting Municipal Reform to Ireland.—By Lord DACRE, from Hitchin, for Rating Cottages for the Relief of the Poor.—By the Earls of RIPON and WINCHILSEA, Lord LYNDHURST, and the Bishops of GLOUCESTER, EXETER, and LINCOLN, from a Number of Places—for Alterations in the Ecclesiastical Courts' Bill.

CHURCH REFORM.—REPORT OF THE COMMISSIONERS.
Viscount Melbournehad it in command from his Majesty to lay upon their Lordships' Table the Second Report from his Majesty's Commissioners appointed to consider the state of the Established Church in England and Wales with reference to Ecclesiastical Duties and Revenues. In performing this duty it gave him great satisfaction to have to state that this Report had been unanimously agreed to—that it bore the signature of all the Commissioners named in the Commission—and that in the long discussions which the variety and magnitude of the subjects of which it treated necessarily
* were absent form indisposition.

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demanded, he believed he should be correct in saying there prevailed no real difference or discrepancy of opinion upon that Commission. Considering the magnitude of this subject, considering its great importance, and considering the great public interest which it naturally excited, it might not be improper for him to open to their Lordships the recommendations which the Commissioners had agreed to make. He should probably do it in a manner extremely imperfect, but, at the same time, he had the satisfaction of knowing that he spoke in the presence of those who were more conversant both with the principle and the details involved in the Report than he could possibly be, and who would, therefore, be able to supply any omission or deficiency that might be found in the very brief statement he should make. Their Lordships were aware that this was the Second Report presented to their Lordships upon this subject. The first Report emanated from the Commission which was appointed under the late Administration. The Commission related to a variety of subjects, which were comprised under three heads;—Territory, Church Revenue, and Church Patronage. None of the recommendations contained in this Report related to patronage. Ecclesiastical Patronage, and patronage in general, was a question of great intricacy and difficulty, which the Commissioners had distinctly reserved for the subject of another Report. With respect to territory, their Lordships were aware that the last Report recommended a new arrangement of the dioceses in England and Wales, which, without making too great and sweeping an alteration, or an entirely new division of the country, appeared to the Commissioners at least well calculated to remedy the great inequality which at present prevailed, and which imposed upon some prelates an extent of territory, and, consequently, an extent of duty, which it was hardly possible for human strength and human intellect to perform, while other prelates were restricted within much smaller proportions, having a smaller population, and comparatively a much narrower circle to operate in. In the recommendations of the former Report, with respect to this subject, the present Report entirely concurred, and, in fact, suggested but one very material alteration, and that was with respect to the dioceses of Bristol and Llandaff, an union of which dioceses
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was recommended in the former Report. But there were objections to that union, which appeared to the present Commissioners so strong, that they had recommended an alteration in respect to that part of the Report,. They proposed that the city and suburbs of Bristol should be united with the diocese of Bath and Wells, and that the remaining part of the diocese, which was in the county of Gloucester, should be added to the diocese of Gloucester, thus merging the diocese of Bristol in the two neighbouring dioceses. That arrangement would make some alteration necessary with respect to those parts of the diocese of St. David's, which were in the counties of Glamorgan, Monmouth, and Brecon, but to these particulars he need not then call their Lordships' attention. There was also a recommendation, that the Bishopric of Sodor and Man might, without inconvenience, be united to the Bishopric of Carlisle. The Commissioners next came to the head of revenue of the different sees. The course of proceeding had been to recommend such reductions as appeared proper, from the incomes of the larger and more opulent sees, for the purpose of forming a fund, out of which the revenue of those bishoprics, which were less amply provided for, might be increased. But this was done, not with a view of introducing a system of perfect equality among the Bishops of the Church—a system which, in his opinion, was most contrary to the best interests and integrity of the Church, inconsistent with the form of government under which we lived, and to the state of society in which we were placed—but for the purpose of reducing that which appeared to be a gross inequality in the revenue of the different branches of the establishment, with a view, on the one hand, that no income should be liable to the imputation of being overgrown and enormous, nor, on the other hand, be subjected to the charge of penury, and restricted in its pecuniary resources—a situation in which it was perfectly well known many Prelates were now placed. The present estimated annual value of the Archiepiscopal See of Canterbury was 17,000 l., which it was proposed should be reduced to 15,000 l. The revenue of the Bishop of London was estimated at 12,200 l., which was proposed to be reduced to 10,000 l. The revenue of the Bishop of Durham was 17,800 l., which

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the Commissioners proposed to set at 8,000 l. The revenue of the Bishop of Winchester was 10,700 l., which was proposed to be reduced to 7,200 l. The revenue of the Bishop of Ely was 11,500., which it was proposed should hereafter be set at 5,500 l. The revenue of the Bishop of Worcester was 6,500 l., to be reduced to 5,000 l. The revenue of the Bishop of St. Asaph was 5,200 l., and the revenue of the Bishop of Bangor 3,800 l., each of which were to be set, at 5,200. The reduction proposed would give a surplus fund of 28,500 l. a-year. To which, if there be added the revenue of the see of Bristol, amounting to 2,300 l., which, as he had said, was to be merged in the adjoining Bishoprics—the total sum thus saved, would be 30,800 l.; which being divided among the thirteen Bishoprics, which require additions to their present revenue, and the two new Sees which were recommended by the former Report to be instituted, would provide an income varying from 4,000 l. to 5,000 l. per annum, to be appropriated according to the circumstances of the different Dioceses. The apportionment had not yet been settled. With respect to the Sees of York, Bath and Wells, Norwich, and Salisbury, it was not proposed to make any alteration in them. Their Lordships would see, that a greater defalcation of Revenue was made from the Bishopric of Durham than from any other; and the reason of that was, the recommendation of the Commissioners —a recommendation from which he thought their Lordships could not dissent —that the temporal and secular jurisdiction hitherto vested in the Bishop of Durham, should be hereafter separated from his ecclesiastical functions. With those civil and secular functions would necessarily go a great portion of the expense hitherto attending that Bishopric—such, for instance, as the reception of the Judges, and others of a similar nature. It was also the recommendation of the Commissioners, that the Bishop of Durham should hereafter be relieved from the necessity of maintaining the Castle of Durham, and that he should only have a residence at Bishop Auckland, and the Castle of Durham should be appropriated to the use of the University that had lately been established in that part of the country. The same arrangement with respect to the separation of the Civil Offices from the Ecclesiastical Functions,
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as had been recommended with regard to the Bishopric of Durham, had also been recommended with respect to the Archbishopric of York, and the Bishopric of Ely, when an opportunity should arise for carrying those arrangements into effect. Thus much for the Report with respect to Revenue. The next important subject to which the attention of the Commissioners was directed, by the terms of the Commission under which they acted, was the stale of the Collegiate and Cathedral Churches in England and Wales; and looking to those great Institutions, and to the property which they possessed, it was natural for them to advert to that which their Lordships were well acquainted with —namely, the extremely reduced state of a great number of the Benefices in this country, and the extreme disproportion of the income of many of the clergy, with the station they ought to hold in the country, united with the duties they had to perform. This state of things had a most unfortunate effect upon the character of the clergy, and, consequently, on the Establishment to which they belonged. It exposed them to ridicule and contempt, and also to temptations which they otherwise would not be exposed to; not only making them less objects of respect to others, but very often, he was afraid, inducing them less to respect themselves than they should do. But he did not know that he could do better on this subject than read the paragraph of the Report relating to it, which appeared to be drawn up with great precision and clearness. "In order to give increased efficiency and usefulness to the Established Church, it is obviously necessary that we should attempt the accomplishment of two objects, which are indispensable to the complete attainment of that end. One is, to improve the condition of those benefices, the population of which is of considerable amount, but which are now so scantily endowed, as not to yield a competent maintenance for a clergyman; the other is, to add to the numbers of clergymen and churches, and so to make a more adequate provision for the religious instruction of a rapidly increased and increasing population." This was followed in the Report by many details, to show the state of the benefices, and the extreme poverty of their revenues, and, at the same time, the great and increasing amount of their population, and the extreme

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burden of the duties the incumbents had to perform. The Report then went on to state the circumstances of the collegiate and cathedral churches, some being on the old foundation, or those instituted before the time of Henry VIII.; and others on the new foundation, or those instituted about the time of the Reformation; and, principally, he believed, under that monarch. In the cathedrals, on the old foundation, there were minor canons, not residentiary, and who had no duties to perform, except occasionally preaching a sermon or two, when they were bound to visit the places in which they held their preferment. Those places of preferment which were not residentiary, the Commissioners recommended should be suppressed altogether, of course, after the termination of the lives of the present holders, and the proceeds of those preferments to be thrown into the fund to be formed for the purposes which he had already stated. It was proposed to abolish them, with the exception of some which were of small value, and which it might be desirable should be preserved as titles of dignity, and as a means of rewarding distinguished merit in the Church. Then, with respect both to the old and new foundations, the Commissioners recommended that, for the future, the chapters of the cathedrals and collegiate churches should consist of a Dean and four Canons, as at present, actually existing in the Cathedrals of York, Chichester, and Carlisle; that one, at least, of these Canonries, where they might be in the patronage of the Bishop, should be made available towards a better provision for the office of Archdeacon, for the purpose of rewarding an officer whose duties were most useful, necessary, and extensive, and who had hitherto been left with a very inadequate remuneration. It was also recommended that, until the existing chapter should be reduced to the proposed number, no new election or appointment should take place. It was also recommended, "That the term of residence of each Dean hereafter to be appointed should be nine months, and of each Canon three months. It was obvious that it would become necessary to make some alterations in those statutes of the respective chapters by which the turns and periods of residence were regulated." He begged to call the attention of their Lordships to a further recommendation, the object of which was to guard against even
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those canonries, limited as they would be in number, from being at all liable to the imputation of being sinecures, and to show that the Commissioners were of opinion that it was as advisable and as necessary to do away with them in the Church as it had been to do them away in the State. The Commissioners state, that "With respect to some of the better endowed canonries, which will remain in four or five of the cathedrals, we are of opinion that they may be advantageously connected with the parochial charge of populous districts. The method of effecting this we reserve for our future consideration; it being necessary to examine carefully the case of each cathedral, with reference to its revenues and local circumstances." Their Lordships would at once perceive that it was impossible to lay down any general rule on this subject; because every cathedral in which these endowments existed must be considered with respect to their local circumstances. Their Lordships were well aware of the course which was taken by the late Administration with respect to the prebendal stall at Westminster, and which was annexed to the populous adjoining parish of St. Margaret. There being another prebendal stall vacant in that cathedral, it was intended to connect that stall with the other populous parish in which their Lordships were then sitting—the parish of St. John. He had received his Majesty's commands to apply that stall in the way he had just mentioned, and no man in the kingdom would more gladly carry into effect than he would a recommendation of so salutary, useful, and efficient a nature. There was another recommendation of considerable importance, which he was desirous to read to their Lordships:—"As it is desirable that dignities in cathedral and collegiate churches should be bestowed upon those only whose qualifications have been proved by a certain period of service in the ministry of the Church; we further recommend that no person be hereafter capable of receiving the appointment of Dean, Archdeacon, or Canon, until he shall have been six years complete in priest's orders." He ought to state to their Lordships, that there were very many establishments under peculiar circumstances in different parts of the country, which required them to be excepted from the general rule laid down in the Report, and which would stand upon their own particular grounds.

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These exceptions their Lordships would j be able to gather from the Report itself. With respect to the minor Canons, Vicars Choral, and other officers of chapters, it was proposed that only so many should be retained as were sufficient for the service of the cathedrals, and that they should have such salaries as might preclude the necessity of their being paid by patronage, many often holding benefices, together with their offices in the cathedral. It was also recommended that all sinecure rectories in the patronage of Ecclesiastical Corporations should be suppressed, and that the resources arising from them should be applied towards augmenting the existing provision for the cure of souls; due regard being had, in the first instance, to the wants of those dioceses in which the sinecure rectories were situate. It was impossible to say precisely what the amount to be obtained from these resources might be. They were not, of course, immediately available, but depended entirely upon the lives of the present holders. The amount had been calculated at not less than 130,000 l. per annum; and though he was afraid that would not be found adequate to the great object they had in view, yet such a sum could not be considered as an utterly inconsiderable fund for that purpose. These were the recommendations with respect to the collegiate churches and cathedrals. The next subjects treated of by the Commissioners had often been debated in their Lordships' House, and upon which it would therefore be perfectly unnecessary for him to trouble their Lordships at any length. These subjects were non-residence and pluralities. The same evil which had met the Commissioners before, met them again upon this subject—the great poverty of many of the benefices in this country. This circumstance disabled the Commissioners from doing what they were inclined to do—that was, to recommend the immediate discontinuance of all pluralities. But they were of opinion that means should be taken to diminish them as much as possible. The Commissioners stated that—
"In determining the principles upon which the holding of benefices in plurality should in future be regulated, we have had respect partly to distance, and partly to value. With respect to distance, we are of opinion that if an incumbent be permitted to hold two benefices, distant from each other not more than ten miles, he will be able, without inconvenience,
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to exercise an occasional superintendence and control over the benefice upon which he does not reside; the regular duties of which will be performed by his curate. With respect to value, we recommend that no benefice of greater annual value than 500 l. should be held in plurality with any other benefice, except in cases where the small value or large population of some neighbouring benefice may render it advisable that it should be held by the incumbent of a better endowed living. In such cases we recommend that, upon a statement made by the Bishop of the diocese to the Archbishop, and transmitted with the sanction of his approval to the Privy Council, it shall be lawful for your Majesty in Council to allow such plurality. We recommend that no more than two preferments of any description be held by the same person, except in the case of an Archdeacon, who may be permitted to hold one benefice with cure of souls, and one canonry." We are of opinion that the operation of a law embodying these provisions will, at no very distant period, have so far reduced the number of pluralities, as to leave no just ground of complaint on that score."
With respect to non-residence, the Commissioners did not mean to depart from the principle of law as it at present stood; but they did propose to make further provision for the enforcement of residence, by diminishing the number of exemptions, and the grounds of licence of non-residence, which the law now allowed, by limiting the period of legal absence in certain cases; and by giving additional powers to the Bishops with respect to the appointment and payment of curates, and the repairs and erection of glebe-houses. A Bill had been prepared for carrying into effect the suggestions of the Commissioners, and would be speedily submitted to their Lordships for their consideration, and he trusted their adoption. In laying this Report on the Table of their Lordships' House, he begged leave to declare his entire approval of all its suggestions, and he should lay it before their Lordships as recommending a measure at once temperate and efficacious, as being at once reforming and conservative, calculated to preserve the character and efficiency of the Church, while, at the same time, it would remove any stumbling blocks in the way of its success, by avoiding those matters which might have rendered it an object of attack. He recommended it, therefore, to their Lordships, as being calculated to increase the efficiency of the Church for those holy purposes for which it was established. He begged, in conclusion to lay the Report on the Table,
The Archbishop of Canterburyexpressed his gratification at hearing the speech of the noble Viscount at the head of his Majesty's Government, in which the noble Viscount had expressed his approbation of the Report, and his determination to carry it into effect. While the Government undertook such a measure as this, which he believed would be in its result highly beneficial to the Church, he felt assured of its success, but without that support it would be impossible to legislate with effect. He had long been aware of the necessity of taking some strong and vigorous measure for the correction of the abuses that had crept into the Church, and for the removal of those anomalies which for a long period had lessened its efficiency. The moment he was placed in the responsible situation, however unworthily so, which he now held, he turned his attention to this point, and being fully aware that nothing could be done without the concurrence of Government, the first step he took was to confer with the noble Duke at that time at the head of his Majesty's Government upon this subject. That noble Duke expressed his satisfaction at the communication; he was anxious that some measures should be taken, and expressed his readiness to concur in whatever the heads of the Church should think proper to recommend. In consequence of this declaration on the part of the noble Duke, and after much consultation with the Bishops, he had a Bill in a state of great preparation at the time that noble Duke ceased to be Minister, which circumstance put a stop to the proceedings. As soon as his successor, Earl Grey, became his Majesty's Minister, he took the same steps, and applied to that noble Earl with the same view, and he met with the same reception. His Lordship declared his conviction of the necessity of taking some efficient measure with respect to the Church, and his readiness to concur in such measure. They had very long and confidential communications upon the subject, and the noble Earl did him the justice to say, when unjustly accused in that House of being an enemy to reform, that he had had communications with him, and was perfectly satisfied with the general views he (the Archbishop of Canterbury) took upon the question. But from the beginning of his Lordship's Administration, it was well known that there were political
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questions which occasioned great excitement in the country. While that excitement prevailed, and while those questions excited particular hostility against the Church, he did not think himself authorised to propose to the noble Earl any comprehensive measure upon ecclesiastical affairs; and his reason was, that he believed such was the noble Earl's judgment that if he had done so the noble Lord would have said, "This is not the time; we must wait for quieter times, and not take the affairs of the Church before Parliament at a period when the public mind is so strongly excited against the Establishment." This would have been the reasoning of the noble Earl. It was, indeed, a subject that required, above all others, the most dispassionate and careful consideration. The noble Viscount had alluded to the Commission appointed by the right hon. Baronet who had been for a short time at the head of the Government, and he must observe that that right hon. Gentleman at once saw the necessity of proceeding to take into consideration the affairs of the Church, and communicated with him almost immediately he came in to office upon the subject. The result of the conference with that right hon. Gentleman was the issuing of the Commission, from which a second Report had this evening been laid on the table. When the right hon. Baronet retired from office the proceedings of the Commissioners were for some time suspended, but as soon as the noble Viscount had settled the affairs of his new Administration he did him the honour to consult with him, the noble Viscount declaring his readiness to continue the Commission with only such change as was rendered necessary by appointing an additional number of persons on the Commission. The noble Viscount also professed his desire that the Commissioners should proceed on the same views and principles on which they had been originally formed. They had continued to receive the same assistance from his Majesty's Ministers since the new Members, who from the high offices they held were necessarily joined in the commission, as they formerly received from preceding Governments. The Commissioners had frequently been honoured by the attendance of the noble Viscount; and others of his Majesty's Ministers also attended whenever occasion required; and gave all the assistance in their power. He was happy to concur in the statement

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of the noble Viscount, that unanimity prevailed in their proceedings; and that whenever there was any difference of opinion on any material point, it was settled not by a reluctant or unwilling compromise or concession on either side, but after a full consideration of the facts, and discussion of the reasons upon which the matter turned. He did not believe, that there ever was a Commission of so many persons, having questions of so much importance to consider, among whom so little difference of opinion prevailed. In fact, he might declare, that the Report was the result of complete unanimity. He must, however, do himself the justice to state, that had he not been assured that this Commission was what the noble Viscount had declared it to be—formed on Conservative principles, he never would have been a member of it. When he said Conservative principles, he meant, that had it involved the dissolution of our ecclesiastical Establishment, he should instantly have thought it his duty to retire from it. The condition on which he consented to remain a member was, that it should preserve the episcopal establishment of the Church in its integrity. Had it been proposed to have a smaller number of Bishops than were necessary for the efficient discharge of the episcopal functions, he should never have given his consent to the Report. But concurring in many of the objections that were made by persons who were the real friends of the Church against Bishops holding livings in commendam, and seeing, at the same time, the necessity of improving the incomes of the poorer Bishops, he could find no other means of effecting the purpose, than by adopting the plan of taking from the larger sees some portion of those revenues which in latter times had greatly increased, and transferring it to the smaller. By the proposed diminution in the extent of the territories of the greater Bishoprics, an advantage would be gained which would entirely overbalance the inconveniences that, in a certain degree, might result from the alteration. With respect to cathedral and collegiate chapters, it was his opinion that those great establishments should be continued, for the maintenance of Divine service, commensurate in some degree to the grandeur and magnitude of the building. The appointments in the cathedrals were most useful to the Church, as they presented the means of rewarding
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clergymen of distinguished merit. On these and other accounts they ought to be liberally supported; but, after this was duly provided for, they still might afford a very considerable surplus for the use of populous parishes, more especially in the metropolis, and in the northern and midland counties, where the population had greatly increased, and where, from the want of sufficient spiritual assistance, the efficiency of the Church of England had been very materially diminished. On the same general principle he approved of the suppression of all sinecure rectories in public patronage. The revenues of these preferments might be very advantageously applied to the remuneration of the clergymen who were engaged in performing the duties of the churches respectively belonging to them, and that which was more than sufficient for this purpose might go to the general fund. The equalization of Bishoprics has never come under the consideration of the Commissioners. Had such a measure been proposed, it would have been immediately rejected. Upon the subject of residence there could be very little difference of opinion. The true principle was, that every clergyman should reside on his benefice. It was, however, impossible to carry this principle into full effect in the present state of the Church; but as nearly as possible, the rule of placing a resident minister wherever there is a sufficient congregation ought to be adhered to. The general feeling against pluralities was founded in reason, and he admitted the necessity of some considerable restriction on the present practice. In a Bill which he introduced some time ago, he proposed that two livings should not be held by the same person if they were thirty miles asunder. That Bill did not pass; and the Commissioners had agreed to limit the holding of two livings to a less distance. In respect to this point, it was possible that they might have gone too far. He would say a few words upon the objects which the Commissioners had kept in view in all their proceedings. Their great desire had been to encourage and facilitate the diffusion and maintenance of pure religion throughout the country. He entirely disclaimed any other motive for his conduct than a sincere anxiety for the good of the Church. Neither he nor his fellow-Commissioners had been actuated by any desire of popularity. They had looked to no tem-

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porary expediency—and had neither sought to fix wavering friends, nor to conciliate implacable adversaries. He trusted that what had been done would be acceptable to the friends of the Church —that it would satisfy the enemies of the Establishment he had no hope. It was his full persuasion, however, that if the re-commendations of the Commissioners were carried into execution they would prove most beneficial to the Church, and increase its strength and efficiency. A great deal had already been done towards effecting that object, and satisfying reasonable and considerate minds. It was vain to talk of security in these times; but he felt that if these recommendations were followed up, the Church Establishment would be placed in a condition to resist the attacks of its enemies. The clergy would proceed in their vocation without being annoyed by those anxieties which had, he would not say interfered with the discharge of their duties, but which undoubtedly had greatly disturbed their minds. There were some other subjects which, though not embraced in the Report, required immediate measures to be introduced and one of the most important of these was, the provision for the improvement of clerical education. He must add, that the clergy of the present day, whether in learning or in attention to their pastoral duties, had never been exceeded by those of any other age or country. But it would be impossible to say, under any circumstances, that there would not be room for improvement. It was desirable that candidates for holy orders should be well grounded in divinity before they entered the Church; and not to have to acquire a knowledge of theology afterwards. He was also of opinion that some more efficient means should exist for correcting the scandal arising from the improper conduct of some unworthy members in the ministry. It could not excite surprise that in a body consisting of about 18,000 persons, many of them young men, there should he found some whose conduct was a scandal to their profession. Some such there unfortunately were; and it was to be regretted that, in the present state of the law, the heads of the Church had not sufficient power to punish such delinquency. It was extremely desirable that some measure for this purpose should be speedily introduced. He threw out this suggestion for the consideration of their Lordships, though not directly
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connected with the Report now before the House. He would close his remarks with the expression of a hope that even those who might differ in some respects from the view taken by the Commissioners, and think either that they had gone too far, or had not gone far enough, would at least admit that the measures which they had proposed would be attended with advantage to the Church, by increasing its powers of usefulness, and averting the dangers which threaten its existence. Report to be printed.