Lords Sitting of 3 March 1836

MINITES.
Petitions presented. By Lord HATHERTON from Birmingham; and by the Marquess of WESTMINSTER, from Chester, for Poor-Laws to Ireland.—By Lord WYNFORD, from several Places, for Relief to the Agricultural Interest—By Lords ELLUNBOROUGH and ASH BURTON— from several Places, for Alterations in the Ecclesiastical Courts' Consolidating Bill.—By Lord ASHBURTON, from Thetford, for extending the time appointed for the payment of Loans borrowed under the Poor-Law Amendment Act for the Building of Workhouses.—By Lord VERNON—, from Derby; and Lord FOLEY, from Worcester, for Relief to the Dlsseulers.—By the Duke of NEWCASTLE, from East Retford, against the Reduced Duty on Spirits made in Ireland,—By the Marquess of WESTMINSTER, from Llandillo, for an easier Method of recovering Small Debts.

BREACH OF PRIVILEGE.
Lord Teynhamregretted being obliged, under any circumstances, to take up a moment of their Lordships' time upon a matter relating personally to so insignificant a person, as himself, and the more especially when the object he had in view was his own defence; but as he felt that his allowing himself to be prevented by this regret from calling to their attention a breach of privilege, to which he had been subjected, he should not be doing his duty, either to his own honour or their Lordships' dignity, he had to trust, that he might stand ex-

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cused for doing so for a very few minutes. Upon the discussion of the other evening, with reference to the conduct of the Brighton Magistrates, a noble Viscount was made to appear in one of the morning papers as having made a most personal and derogatory attack upon him. He knew not whether the noble Viscount to whom he alluded was now in his place or not, nor did he care whether he was or not. [The Earl of Shaftesbury: Wait till he comes.] He should not. It was quite immaterial to him whether the noble Viscount was present or not. The noble Viscount, forgetful of many kindnesses done by him to his family, had made upon him, as it appeared in the report to which he alluded, a most unwarrantable, gross, and unfounded attack, and he would be failing in the duty he owed to their Lordships individually, as well as to the respect he entertained for their privileges, if he did not formally bring it under their notice. His complaint was a breach of the privileges of the House committed by the Morning Post newspaper. That paper, notorious alone for the falsehood of every statement it put forth, had published a version of the noble Viscount's speech upon the discussion of the other evening, not only totally different from what he believed the noble Viscount had said, but in every word varying from the reports which appeared in the other morning papers. He knew well—
The Earl of Shaftesburyrose to. He submitted that, in the absence of the noble Viscount to whom the noble Lord alluded, the present complaint ought not to be made.
Lord Teynhamwas again proceeding, when—
The Marquis of Londonderryagain rose to order. The noble Viscount alluded to would, he had no doubt, be in his place presently, and he submitted it would be but decorous to wait for his presence.
Lord Teynhamwould wait the noble Viscount's appearance, on the understanding, that if he did not appear before the rising of the House he (Lord Teynham) should be at liberty to proceed with his complaint. [Shortly afterwards Viscount Strangford entered the House. The noble Lord then continued.] Seeing the noble Viscount in his place, he begged to proceed with the Motion on which he had been interrupted. As a preliminary step, he desired, with the permission of the House, to ask two questions of the noble Viscount. He wished, in the first place, to know if the
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noble Viscount meant to apply to him the observations which had appeared attached to his name in the Morning Post of yesterday, and which he understood had been supplied to that paper by the noble Viscount himself? He had understood the speech of the noble Viscount the other evening in a totally different sense from that conveyed by the report to which he alluded; and he begged, therefore, to ask, whether he was to take as the real sentiments of the noble Viscount his impression of his speech, or that which the report would convey? In other words, did the noble Viscount mean to apply the observations as they appeared in the Morning Post to him? [The noble Lord resumed his seat. A pause of a few minutes ensued.]
Lord Teynham: My Lords, I demand an answer to my question.
Lord Kenyanrose to order. The noble Lord was doing that which was most irregular. Whatever the observations of the noble Viscount might have been, they were made in the presence of the noble Lord: had they been in any degree personal or insulting to the noble Lord's feelings, they should have been at once noticed by him. Certainly a more irregular question could not be put than that of asking a noble Lord to state whether a certain report, which appeared in a newspaper, was true or false. If their Lordships were desirous of preserving the order of their proceedings, they should not sanction the continuance of the present discussion.
Lord Teynhamthought that when the character of a Member of that House was most grossly and wantonly attacked, the utmost latitude should be given in the interpretation of its orders. When the noble Viscount spoke the other evening, he (Lord Teynham) either did not perfectly hear him, or totally misunderstood the nature of his remarks. He thought it was due to him (Lord Teynham) as to their Lordships that he should be permitted to -put his question and that the noble Viscount should be called upon to answer it, [The noble Lord again resumed his seat.]
The Marquess of Westminsterrose to present a petition.
Lord Teynhamasked if he was not to have an answer to his question?
Lord Ellenboroughobserved, that the noble Lord's proceeding was quite out of order. It was specifically stated in the regulations of the House, that no noble Lord should require any explanation from another

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except for words spoken in debate; and that even in such case the explanation should be required on the moment.
Lord Teynhamwould have demanded an explanation upon the moment, but that he did not understand the observations of the noble Viscount. They were, in the first place, too diplomatic for his comprehension; and, in the second, he could not have thought that an attack upon his character would have proceeded from such a source.
The Marquess of Salisburyrose to order. Some stop should at once be put to the irregular discussion which had arisen.
Lord Teynham, notwithstanding the call to order, would persevere in putting the question. Once more he asked of the noble Viscount, if the uncalled-for, false, and scandalous speech—["Order, order."]
Viscount Melbournerose.—It was obvious to all, that unless some degree of order was preserved, and some attention paid to the rules of debate, it would be quite impossible for the House to proceed in the discharge of the public duties allotted to it. There could be no question but that the noble Lord was perfectly irregular in referring to observations made during a former debate. The very object of the regulation which had been alluded to was, the prevention of such irregular discussions as that which had been commenced. He, therefore, hoped the noble Lord would see the propriety of withdrawing his question.
Lord Teynham: After the speech of the noble Viscount, he begged to say he felt completely satisfied, and should not trouble the House any further. He regretted that so unworthy a Member of the House as himself should have taken up even so much of their Lordships time upon the matter.
The matter dropped.

ORANGE LODGES.
Upon the Order of the Day for the Motion of the Marquess of Londonderry, relative to Orange Lodges, having being read,
The Earl of Winchilsearose to request of his noble Friend the postponement of the motion until to-morrow evening. He did so in consequence of the continued absence of a noble Earl (the Earl of Roden), who was extremely anxious to be present upon the debate, and who was expected to arrive early to-morrow.
The Marquess of Londonderryfelt considerably embarrassed by the request of his noble Friend, whom he was very anxious to oblige; but being placed in a very
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awkward position, it would be with great regret that he consented to the postponement of the motion. When he first gave notice of his intention of bringing under their Lordships' consideration the Report of the Select Committee of the House of Commons upon Orange Lodges, he did so solely with the view of refuting the strong personal allusions which had been made upon his conduct in connexion with that subject; and feeling naturally most anxious to get rid of the pain which those dark and cunning insinuations had given him, he should regret that even twenty-four hours more should pass over without his having an opportunity to call their Lordships' attention to the subject. He thought it would be very practicable, without entering upon the general subject of Orange Lodges, at once to proceed with his contradiction of the allegations made in the other House; and therefore, unless it was the opinion of their Lordships generally, that he ought to wait, he would beg to make his statement, reserving, however, all discussion on the general question to a future occasion. A considerable time had now elapsed since he first gave notice of the motion, and he therefore thought he should not be guilty of any disrespect to the noble Earl if he proceeded. He was, however, in the hands of the House, and would bow to their decision.
The Earl of Winchilseaobserved that he had not held any communication with the noble Earl to whom he alluded, and that he only sought for the postponement upon the ground that the intimate connexion existing between the noble Earl who was absent (Earl of Roden), and the institutions in question, would enable him to undertake their defence with more knowledge of the subject than any then present.
The Duke of Cumberlandwas most anxious the present discussion should take place as soon as possible; but what had fallen from the noble Earl (Earl of Winchilsea), and taking into consideration the connexion which had subsisted between the noble Earl (Earl of Roden) and the late constitutional and loyal associations, called the Orange Lodges of Ireland, he thought it would be better that his noble Friend should wait until he was present.
The Marquess of Londonderrythought it but right to observe, that when he first gave notice of his motion, he distinctly stated that his only reason- for not proceeding with it immediately, was the noble Earl in question's absence. He certainly

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expected that ere this, the noble Earl would have managed to have been In his place. He could not, he regretted, give way to an individual request, but should the House be in favour of a postponement, he should at once bow to it.
Viscount Melbournethought, that if the noble Earl was to be in his place to-morrow it might be better to postpone the motion. If any attack had been made on the noble Marquess in another place, (and he was ignorant of any such attack) surely, it could make little matter whether it was answered then or twenty-fours hence.
The Marquess of Londonderry: in order to prevent the impossibility of another postponement, in consequence of his absence, he would at once name Monday next for his motion.
Motion postponed till Monday.