Lords Sitting of 14 June 1836

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a third time: —;See of Durham.
Petitions presented. By the Earl of BANDON, from Stirling, against any further grant to Maynooth College; and from Denham and Gressenhall, for Repeal of Roman Catholic Relief Act.—;By the Earl of ROSSLYN, from the Eastern Division of Fife, for Protection to the Herring Fisheries.—;By the Bishop of GLOUCESTER, from Gloucester, for Revision of the Criminal Code.

POST-OFFICE PACKETS —;HOLYHEAD.
The Earl of Lichfieldwished to answer some questions which we put by the noble Marquess (Westmeath) yesterday, respecting the Post-Office packets at Holy-head. The noble Marquess said, that no precautions were taken to prevent danger from fire on board the packets. It was true that, for some time, in consequence of nothing of the kind having happened, the precautions against fire had in some degree been neglected; but no sooner had the subject been brought under his notice, than he gave directions that every necessary means should be provided to guard against any accident of fire happening on board the packets. With regard to the other matter of complaint alluded to by the noble Marquess—; namely, that relating to malversation and peculation carried on in the Post-Office establishment at Holyhead, he believed their Lordships would think that this was not the most suitable occasion for going into that question.
The Earl of Wicklowwished to inquire of the noble Earl when it was that the Reports of the Commissioners would come under the consideration of their Lordships?
The Duke of Richmondwished to give the most complete contradiction to a statement contained in the 6th Report of the Post-Office Commissioners, that the representations of the captains of the vessels on the Holyhead station did not meet with proper attention from the Postmaster-Ge-

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neral. During the three years he held that office, he gave every attention to the representations made by those persons; and he had no doubt that his noble Friend up to the present time had done the same.
The Earl of Wicklowsaid, that it was matter of very important consideration to the noble Earl, that although no Post-Office packet had ever been actually destroyed by fire, yet it was reported that every packet on the Holyhead station had been on fire; and one of them no less than three times. This was a state of things which ought not to be tolerated: and he hoped the noble Earl would follow up the recommendation of the Commissioners, by establishing a different packet system altogether.
The Earl of Lichfieldobserved, that it was rather a curious circumstance that the only vessel that ever was burnt to the water's edge was the Venus, and she was the only vessel that ever had a fire-engine on board.
Subject dropped.

OATHS TAKEN BY CATHOLIC PEERS.
Lord Stourtonthen rose, and stated that he had received by post, addressed to him personally, a document purporting to be a copy of a petition to their Lordships from the corporation of tailors in the parish of St. John the Baptist, Dublin, which contained passages reflecting on his honour as a Peer of Parliament; it was set forth in the petition, that, although it was enacted by the Emancipation Bill, that the Roman Catholics, in taking their seats in Parliament, should swear that they would not vote upon any question in which the Protestant religion, or the interest of the Protestant Establishment was involved, yet that he, unmindful of his oath, had voted on the Church Temporalities Bill, by giving his proxy to the noble Viscount at the head of his Majesty's Government. He must complain of the great indignity which their Lordships' House itself would sustain, if a charge of this grave and serious nature were suffered to be made against any Member of their Lordships' House—;imputing, as it did, nothing less than the crime of perjury—;without some notice being taken of it, and some means afforded, by which the noble Lord, whose character was implicated, might vindicate his honour and convict his accuser of a gross and unfounded calumny. He would remind their Lordships of what was said by Sir Robert Peel, when he introduced the Roman Catholic
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Emancipation Bill in 1829; and he trusted that their Lordships would agree that he was justified in the course he had pursued, by the very language the right hon. Gentleman who was the author of the measure by which he (Lord Stourton) obtained access to their Lordships' House. The right hon. Gentleman said, "I would admit them, therefore, on the same footing, the same principle of equality, on which we now admit the Dissenter from the Church of England. Another proposal has been made by a right hon. Friend of mine (Mr. Wilmot Horton)—;made from the best motives, and supported with an ingenuity, ability, and research, worthy of the motives and of the character of its author. My right hon. Friend has proposed, with a view to calm the suspicions and fears of those who object to the admission of Roman Catholics to Parliament, that the Roman Catholic Member should be disqualified by law from voting on matters relating, directly or indirectly, to the interests of the Established Church. There appear to me numerous and cogent objections to this proposal. In the first place, it is dangerous to establish the precedent of limiting by law the discretion by which the duties and functions of a Member of Parliament are to be exercised; in the second, it is difficult to define beforehand, what are the questions which affect the interests of the Church. A question which has no immediate apparent connexion with the Church, might have a practical bearing upon its welfare ten times more important than another question which might appear directly to concern it; thirdly, by excluding the Roman Catholic from giving his individual vote, you do little to diminish his real influence, if you leave him the power of speaking, of biassing the judgments of others on the question on which he is not himself to vote; and if by a jealous and distrusting, but ineffectual precaution, you tempt him to exercise to your prejudice the remaining power of which you cannot, or do not, propose to deprive him. I believe there is more of real security in confidence than in avowed mistrust and suspicion, unaccompanied by effectual guards. For these reasons I am unwilling to deprive the Roman Catholic Member of either House of Parliament of any privilege of free discussion, and free exercise of judgment, which belongs to other Members of the Legislature."
Subject dropped.

MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS ACT —; (ENGLAND.)
The Marquess of Camdenpresented a Petition from 300 members of the University of Cambridge, praying that the Vice-Chancellor of the University for the time being may be a magistrate for the town of Cambridge. He would give notice that when the Bill for amending the English Municipal Corporations Act went into Committee he should move to insert a clause with a view to carry into effect the prayer of the petitioners.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, that a question had arisen between the inhabitants of the town of Cambridge and the University of Cambridge as to who should be put into the commission of the peace for that town. It appeared that hitherto the Vice-Chancellor had held a commission of the peace for the borough, and was also a magistrate for the county; and it further appeared, from the representations on the part of the town that the Vice-Chancellor, from some authority which was not very easily traced, but supposed to be by virtue of the authority vested in him by charter with his power of magistrate, was enabled to grant licences to all the public-houses in the town of Cambridge, a power not very agreeable to the inhabitants, and which the town therefore very strenuously resisted. When he came to consider who ought to be put into the commission, the nicety of deciding that question, as between the Vice-Chancellor and the town of Cambridge, was entirely removed by what passed last year on the Municipal Corporations Act, and by the language of that Act itself, which made it the duty of the Government to provide the magistracy. Now if the insertion of the Vice Chancellor into the Commission was to be made on the ground of his being an elective officer, that would in effect be to take away from the Crown the power of nominating the magistrates. He thought that the proper construction of the Act would preclude any individual from being a magistrate by virtue merely of his being elected to office. The present petition assumed that construction of the Act to be correct, and proposed to make an alteration in it as far as respected the Vice Chancellor of the University. If that should be the pleasure of their Lordships it would then become their duty to inquire what arrangement could be made between the University and the town for the purpose of coming to some understanding upon the subject. He begged to state to their Lordships the course he had taken with regard to the
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University. Believing that it was right and proper, with a view to the protection of the young men at the University, that some persons connected with it should be in the commission of the peace, he had introduced into the Commission six heads of houses, four professors, and four other persons residing in the town, who were members of the University; therefore a majority of the magistrates were members of the University. He had hoped that the University would have considered that he had given its members as much magisterial power as it was desirable they should possess. By not opposing the introduction of the clause which the noble Marquess had stated it to be his intention to bring forward, he begged to be considered as not pledging himself to any particular course which he might hereafter feel it his duty to follow.
Petition laid on the Table.

RAILWAYS.
The Duke of Wellingtonbegged to ask the noble Marquis (Lansdowne) opposite whether his Majesty's Ministers were prepared to bring forward any general measure upon the subject of railways?
The Marquess of Lansdownereplied that the Government were not at that moment prepared with any plan upon the subject; but, at the same time, be begged to assure the noble Duke that Ministers were exceedingly alive to the great importance of the subject, and that, in the course of a very short time, they should be prepared to come forward with a plan which he hoped and believed would be generally approved of. In the mean time he thought it would be highly desirable to introduce into all the Railway Bills that should come under the consideration of the House, a clause by which they should hereafter become subject to any general plan which the House might deem fit to adopt. He might as well state that a Bill would be brought into the other House of Parliament to carry the proposed object into effect. Their Lordships should recollect, however, that this was a delicate subject to the companies concerned, but he hoped that equal protection might be afforded to them and to the public.
The Duke of Wellingtonthought it highly expedient that the Bills now before the House should be rendered subject to any general regulation which the House might afterwards adopt. Therefore, with

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he permission of the House, he would read a clause which he had prepared upon the subject, and which he thought should be introduced into every Railway Bill that came under their consideration prior to the adoption of a general plan. He would read the clause now, and then lay it on the table of the House in order that it might be printed and considered by their Lordships previous to Thursday next, when he should move its insertion in the first Railway Bill that came before them. The noble Duke then read the clause, to this effect: "Provided always, and be it further enacted, that nothing herein contained shall extend, or be construed to extend, to the exemption of this or any other railroad from the provisions of any general Act or general Acts for the regulation of railroads, which may be passed with a view to the advantage, protection, and security of the public, before the expiration of one year from the passing of this Act, if Parliament shall be sitting at the expiration of such period of one year, or if Parliament should not be then sitting, before the end of the then next session."
Subject dropped.

THE UNIVERSITIES(SCOTLAND)BILL.
Viscount Melbournerose to move the Second Reading of the Universities (Scotland) Bill. He said that, notwithstanding the estimation in which the Universities of Scotland were held in that country, notwithstanding the effect they had upon the country, notwithstanding the means they afforded for cheap education, some vices, some errors, had still crept into those establishments, which it was admitted on all hands required certain amendments. He undoubtedly felt that such extensive powers and influence as belonged to the Scotch Universities required periodical revision, and especially to be considered by fresh eyes—to be considered by those who were not previously accustomed to the general routine of the affairs within those spheres; and such a revision would be required even if the institution were well administered in themselves. Upon that view the Commission of Royal Visitation had been appointed. That Commission had entered into a very accurate and complete inquiry upon the subject. They had examined into the Universities of Scotland, into their mode of instruction, into their property, into the appointment of the professors, and in short, into their
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general state and management, and they had made a Report, in which they recommended various extensive and important improvements. The present Bill recited the facts which he had stated respecting the Commission, and was founded upon the particular recommendation contained in the 13th page of that Report. The noble Lord then read the passage of the Report which recommended the appointment of Commissioners, in order to discover the best mode of carrying their specific recommendation into effect. Now, this Bill after reciting those facts, provided that it be lawful for his Majesty with the advice of his Privy Council to appoint a Board of Visitors to the Colleges of Glasgow and Edinburgh, and to the King's College at Aberdeen. In addition to the General Board for the whole it had been deemed convenient to appoint also special boards of visitors for each separate College, because whatever might be the case with the General Board, it might fairly be expected that Gentlemen would be found to give a portion of their time gratuitously towards the management of their own College. The next clause contained various regulations respecting the system of management to be pursued. Clauses 8, 9, and 10 referred to the powers to be given to the visitors. The 8th conferred upon them all the powers at present enjoyed by his Majesty in his visitatorial capacity. The 9th provided that the "Senatus Academicus" of each College should state to the Board of Visitors the regulations which they would propose to be adopted in their own particular case. That provision was inserted in order that they might have all the benefit of the local knowledge of the Gentlemen intimately connected with each College; but if those Gentlemen neglected to make such recommendation to the Board within six months' then the Commissioners were empowered to make the regulations themselves. The 10th Clause gave the power of abolishing professorships, saving vested interests. It was further enacted that the measure should continue in force only for five years, unless, it should be at an earlier period confirmed by Act of Parliament. Upon the whole then, this Bill being recommended by the Commissioners, and having been delayed somewhat longer than it ought, he trusted there would be no objection to adopt the measure, with such alterations as might

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hereafter Seem fit to their Lordships. The measure undoubtedly did vest in the hands of his Majesty's Government a considerable power, by conferring upon them the appointment of the Board of Visitors; but it would be superfluous, he sincerely hoped, in him to profess that it was the intention of Government to advise the selection of those only for members of the Board who from 'their knowledge, from their character, from their respectability, and impartiality, were the most fitted to exercise that trust, and to acquire the esteem of their fellow-collegians. In conclusion, he begged to move the Second Reading of this Bill.
The Earl of Aberdeenstated, that it was not his intention to offer any opposition to the Second Reading of the Bill, because he understood from the explanation of the noble Lord, and also from the contents of the Bill itself, that its object was to carry into effect the recommendations contained in the Report of the Commission of Royal visitation which was appointed no less than seven years ago, and which had presented its Report to Parliament more than six years. ["Not quite six years," from Lord Melbourne."] Having had the honour of being a member of that commission, he of course could have no objection to a measure for carrying into effect the recommendations of their Report in which he had mainly coincided. But he certainly felt, that greater discretion must be given to the Commissioners than was given by this Bill. He had been glad to hear the announcement of the noble Lord as to the intention of the Government with regard to the appointment of the Board, and he would only suggest, if they found any difficulty in carrying those intentions into execution, the propriety of following the course which had been pursued by his right hon. Friend (Sir Robert Peel), when he was Secretary of State, by making those appointments entirely independent of any party character so that the Board should be composed of men of all descriptions and opinions, but all equally able to engage in the consideration of the subject in question. He had no doubt that the Commission would give satisfaction, and he should therefore support the second reading of the Bill; but if it should contain any provision subject to objection, which he did not believe to be the case, he should reserve to himself the right of opposing it in Committee.
The Duke of Wellingtonexpressed a hope that amply sufficient time would be given for the consideration of the measure before it went into Committee.
The Earl of Roseberrycould not avoid stating shortly his opinion on this subject, and in the first instance, having taken some pains to inquire into this question, he begged leave to acquit his Majesty's Government of any neglect or unnecessary delay. He knew that their attention had been continually directed to the subject from the end of the year 1831, when the Commissioners made their Report to his Majesty, down to the time when this measure was digested. They had continually been employed in considering how the recommendation of the Commissioners might be best enforced; but difficulties did present themselves, and questions arose, which prevented the Crown from acting in the matter upon its own responsibility; and the principle of adopting in the Bill the original and fundamental recommendation of the Commissioners was, in his opinion, not only the best method of carrying into effect that primary recommendation, but was the only means of obviating the difficulties that had arisen. Upon that principle he should support the second reading of the Bill.
The Archbishop of Canterburysaid, that after what had fallen from noble Lords much more capable of judging correctly upon this subject than he was, he of course could not think of offering any objection to the second reading of this Bill; but he confessed he had at first been rather alarmed at the powers which it bestowed upon certain individuals; and also at the extent of the measure which went to alter the whole constitution of the ancient, venerable, and highly-useful Universities of Scotland. He, however, had that evening heard from noble Lords who possessed much better information on the subject than himself, that very great alterations were necessary; notwithstanding which he really was not prepared to give a vote upon a subject so deeply affecting the religious interests and the education of the people of Scotland without further information upon which to proceed. Upon that ground, then, he joined in the request of the noble Duke, that full time should be given for the consideration of the measure previous to its going into Committee.
The Earl of Haddingtonconsidered, that time ought to be granted. The greatest interest and a considerable sensation prevailed upon the subject in Scotland. Ample time was necessary, in order to have before the House all the suggestions which might be made, and especially from the Universities themselves; because it was admitted that if the Universities were opposed to the measure it would not work well.
Bill read a second time; to be committed that day fortnight.

MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS ACT — (ENGLAND).
Upon the Motion of the Lord Chancellor, the House resolved itself into a Committee on the Municipal Corporations' Act (England) Amendment Bill.
The several clauses were read and agreed to.
The Marquess of Camdenproposed the insertion of a clause for the purpose, as was understood, of preserving the power of the Chancellor of the University of Cambridge in regard to the licensing of houses.
The Earl of Radnorobjected to the clause, as giving to the Chancellor of Cambridge and exclusive power of granting and withdrawing licences, not possessed by other magistrates.
The Duke of Wellingtonsupported the clause upon the ground of the privileges of the University, which were respected in the Bill, for he found in the Act of Parliament of last Session, words to this effect— Provided that nothing herein contained shall affect the rights and privileges of the Chancellor or other officers of the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge.
The clause was agreed to.
The Bill reported, with amendments.
The House resumed.