§ Viscount Melbourne, in moving the Order of the Day for the second reading of the Church of Ireland Bill, said, that notwithstanding the great interest which had prevailed, and which continued to prevail, on this subject, throughout the empire, and particularly in that part of the country to which the Bill related, notwithstanding the great consequences that might result from it, and the great consequences that had resulted heretofore from the agitation of this question, and notwithstanding the urgent necessity which existed for their Lordships coming to a settlement of this question, yet, he believed there were many circumstances which would go to relieve him on the present occasion from going into any very lengthened arguments upon the subject. In the first place, this was the third Bill which had been presented to their Lordships for the purpose of effecting that desirable object, the settlement of this question. It had been been fully discussed in that House, as well as in the other House of Parliament; it had afforded topics for much discussion and repeated debate out of doors, as well as in both Houses of Parliament; he might therefore be excused for not intruding very long on their Lordships' patience on the present occasion. With respect to the greater part, at least with respect to the general principle of the Bill, there was in fact no great difference of opinion between that House and the other House of Parliament; nor, indeed, between 436 the present and the former Government, for that general principle had been admitted by both Governments, and sanctioned by the votes of both Houses; and therefore he did not think it necessary to delay their Lordships by going into any very general discussion upon that subject. He would particularly avoid any attempt to stir up those matters which had produced the warmest discussion and debate in that House on all occasions. He should confine himself, as far as he could, to a statement of the general features of the Bill, without entering into its details, and he should do that the more readily, because on a former occasion he had adopted the rule of saying nothing upon that part of the subject which was likely to rekindle a lengthened debate. The object of the Bill was fourfold—the first object was, to establish a rent-charge payable by the landlord in lieu of tithes payable now by the occupier of the land and it was unnecessary for him to state his reasons for that alteration. The second great object of the Bill was a more equal distribution of the benefices of Ireland. The third object was the regulation for the future of the duties and incomes of those incumbencies. The fourth object was the payment of any residue that might remain, after all those objects had been attended to, into the consolidated fund, in order to meet a charge of 50,000l.; for the moral and religious education of the people of Ireland. In the first clause it was stated, that the right of all persons in and to all tithes or compositions for tithes at any time hereafter to accrue due in Ireland shall wholly cease and determine. The second clause related to those persons who had received relief under the Act of the 3rd and 4th of William 4th c. 100; it provided, that all sums payable by instalments under that Act should be remitted, and that any money heretofore paid there under should be refunded. The Bill then proceeded to charge all land in lieu of tithes with a permanent rent-charge of 70l. for every 100l. to be paid to each tithe-owner, whether clergyman or layman. He was perfectly aware that that was a larger defalcation from the income of the clergy than was proposed on a former occasion. It was not necessary for him to go through the details and provisions of former Bills, whether those of the present Government, or those intended to be introduced by another Government; but the reduction proposed in this Bill was undoubtedly a larger defalcation from the income of the clergy than it was formerly 437 proposed to make. He could only say with respect to that point that it must be evident to their Lordships that the longer the settlement of this question was protracted, the longer the present state of things in Ireland was allowed to exist, the longer disturbance and resistance to the law were continued, the more difficult would it be to arrange matters, and the more obstinate would conflicting interests become, because they would be more accustomed to that state of things which already existed. Their Lordships must be well aware, that it would be very unwise to prolong that disturbance and that resistance to which he alluded, or to encourage the feelings and dispositions in which they originated, by delaying the settlement of this question, because there were persons enough who found it advantageous, and who were willing enough to have that state of things rendered permanent. If their Lordships would only consider the great object of the Bill now before them—namely, the final adjustment of this question—he thought they would scarcely think it worth while to stop and consider whether they should agree upon 2½ per cent, or 3 per cent. The settlement of the question was worth some sacrifice on all sides, and he trusted their Lordships would not lose the present opportunity of effecting the termination of that state of things in Ireland, the continuance of which, whatever opinions they might hold with respect to the commencement all must lament and deplore. The rent-charges were to be collected by the Commissioners of Woods and Forests for the first seven years, and after that as Parliament might determine. The great objection which was taken to that arrangement last year by a noble Duke, and a noble Baron, he believed, opposite, was, that it would have the effect of making the clergy dependant or stipendiary, and of placing them entirely under the control of the state. He thought the advantage which the clergy would derive from the powers of the Crown being employed in the collection of their revenues, and the certainty of payment they would enjoy, would be a very good compensation for any slight dereliction of principle in this respect. Many noble Lords, he believed had no practical experience on this subject: but he could assure them that there was no comparison between an income paid by the State and that which depended on other sources, payment being a contingency and the amount an. uncertainty. 438 If their Lordships intended to preserve the interests of the clergy, they would do so. at least in one important respect, by giving them this security for their incomes. With regard to the payment of the rent-charges, it was to be made in precisely the same manner as it was provided for in the former Bills. Then came certain Clauses to permit the re-opening of compositions for tithes: and to these clauses very great objection had been already taken in that House. At the same time, it had been admitted by noble Lords connected with that part of the country to which the Bill related, and by a noble Lord who seemed to take a more calm and deliberate view of the subject than some others, that the provisions of Lord Stanley's Act in regard to compositions had in effect been got up in too hurried a manner, and with too little consideration for the interests of all the parties concerned, so that in some cases great injustice resulted. Some of those instances were so glaring, that he at once perceived there was an absolute necessity for some provisions of the kind contained in the present Bill to guard against any concealment or misrepresentation of the facts, which would vitiate the whole contract ab initio. The Clauses in the present Bill would completely remedy the defects of the original Tithe Composition Bill in this respect. After referring to some observations which had been made by a noble Lord respecting appeals against the decisions of the Commissioners, which the noble Viscount said he did not consider either very forcible or applicable to the present subject he proceeded to remark that the next great object of the Bill was the re-distribution of the benefices in Ireland, with reference to the duties belonging to them. On that it was not necessary for him then to make any observations, for when he looked at the debates of the House of Commons, he found that when the second reading of that Bill was moved in that House, an amendment was proposed, for "leave to bring in a Bill for the conversion of tithe-composition into rent-charges, and for the redemption thereof, and for the better distribution of ecclesiastical revenues in Ireland," by a noble Friend of his, whose secession from the Government to which he belonged he had never ceased to regret, and whose authority on the present occasion, he thought would have great weight with their Lordships. In addition to that, there were numerous petitions from the clergy of Ireland, expressing their anxiety with refer- 439 ence to the duties which they had to perform, and for the better distribution of the revenues of the Church, and for all the objects described in that amendment. These things would, he was sure, relieve him from the necessity of stating any further observations on this part of the measure. The authority of his noble Friend in the other House might be considered invincible, therefore he would not enter into particulars, unless any noble Lord should adopt a course to compel him to do so. But it was now proposed that his Majesty under the sign manual should appoint a Committee of Privy Council, to be styled "The Ecclesiastical Committee of the Privy Council of Ireland," and to consist of members of the Established Church, the Archbishops of Ireland to be members of the council ex officio. To this Board the Ecclesiastical Commissioners would have to report whenever benefices might fall vacant, the state of the population, the number of persons of each religion in it, and the various circumstances connected with the spiritual condition and welfare of the people; that Report having been duly made, the Lord-Lieutenant in Council would then have to make such orders thereupon as to them might seem good. The third object of the Bill was the regulation of the incomes of the future incumbents. It was proposed, that where the number of members of the Established Church was less than fifty, the annual income to be assigned to the incumbent should not exceed 100l; where the number of members exceeds fifty and does not exceed 500, the income to be not more than 200l., and not less than 150l. Where the number of parishioners exceeds 500 but does not exceed 1,000, the income to be not more than 300l. nor less than 250l. Where the number exceeds 1,000 but is not more than 3,000, the income to be not less than 350l. nor more than 400l, Where the number amounts to 3,000 or upwards, the income to be not less than 450l. nor more than 500l. In no case was it proposed that an income of more than 500l. should be allowed; that was to be the maximum of the income of the rural benefices in Ireland; those of the cities and towns to be left in the same situation they were at present. That amount of income would give to the clergy of Ireland a considerably larger average income than was at present enjoyed by the clergy of England, where the religion of the majority was the Pro- 440 testant religion. Where the Protestants of any benefice in Ireland exceeded 1,000, it was proposed to appoint one or more curates, on the recommendation of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, with a salary of 100l. a year. It would be necessary to consider what number of benefices was to be provided for. The number at present, he understood to be 1,385, but of these forty-one were without a single Protestant, and no less than 124 having only from one at the lowest to twenty-five at the highest. It was therefore proposed by the operation of the Ecclesiastical Commission that these benefices should be added to others, so as to reduce the whole number to 1,250, which was supposed to be the number of benefices for which it would be necessary permanently to provide. Supposing then, it was necessary to provide for 1,250 benefices, the next thing to be considered was, what was the available revenue of the clergy, and the average amount of the tithe compositions. It was estimated that the sum required would be 368,350l. It was proposed also to give to every benefice thirty acres of glebe land. The glebe lands at present were very unequally distributed, and it was proposed, that in future no benefice should have more than thirty acres. The residue would be sold or exchanged, whichever plan would be deemed the most profitable. The total available amount to meet the future expenses of the clergy was calculated at 461,900l. But there were some other benefices to be provided with curates, which would occasion an expense of 18,075l. more, which being added to the 368,350l. would make the whole demand 386,425l., which deducted from the gross revenues, estimated at 461,900l., would leave 75,475l. There would then be a surplus to dispose of. All they wanted was a surplus, and there it was. [Lord Lyndhurst: How much do you say it is?] 75,475l. Out of that it was proposed that there should be paid into the Consolidated Fund, for the purposes of the moral and religious education of the people of Ireland, the sum of 50,000l. As to the objections which had been urged against the power of Parliament to interfere, he thought they were absurd. The example of this country, and of all European nations, warranted such interference. Let them look east, west, north, or south, to any country, whatever might be the form of government, whatever might be the re- 441 ligion of the country, whether the reformed religion, or that of Popery was adopted, whether the government was despotic or republican, whether the creed was Calvinistic, Lutheran, or Zuinglian, in no country would it be found tolerable or possible to leave the revenues of the Church as they had been accumulated by the piety or superstition of past ages; therefore, to say that it was not in the power of Parliament or predominant party of the State to do this, was in his opinion contrary to all fact, reason, experience, and common sense itself; but, at the same time, he acknowledged this was a subject of great importance and great difficulty, and one which ought not to be decided hastily—one which ought not to be approached except under difficult circumstances and in extreme cases, and he would assert that Ireland was an extreme case. With respect to the condition of the population, and the state of religion in that country, it was altogether an extreme case, and required the most serious consideration to enable them to deal with the question as it deserved. He would not go into the present state of Ireland, with regard to the violence of religious parties there. None of their Lordships were unacquainted with that subject; but he would suggest, that the only way in which they could deal with that difficulty would be to reduce the establishment of the Church of Ireland within bounds commensurate to the duties she was called upon to perform, and the congregations she had to serve; within the bounds of reason, so as to render a church establishment there defensible by argument; and the collection and application of her revenues more advantageous to the people. He believed he had stated the general provisions of the Bill, and he should now move that it be read a second time.
§ The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, that although he might very safely urge against the present motion, that notwithstanding the difficulties and privations under which the Anglo-Irish Church had so long laboured, that Church was never in so good a position or situation as it now was, owing to the protection which had been afforded to the clergy by enforcing the law in that country; although, he repeated, he might with truth say, that this was now the case, yet he should not deem it necessary to oppose the second reading of the Bill before their Lordships, or throw any difficulties in the way to obstruct its 442 progress to the Committee. This was his present conviction upon the subject; and having observed the moderate tone in which the noble Viscount had proposed the second reading, he should not trouble their Lordships with any extended speech on this occasion, but would follow the example of the noble Viscount, and even confine himself to two observations on the statements of the noble Viscount. He hoped their Lordships would consider the present Bill in the Committee, with the view to introduce such amendments as would reconcile it to, and render it consistent with, the interests as well as the means of the Church of Ireland. It had for its object the establishment of a fixed rent-charge in lieu of the present tithe payments; but he could not agree with the noble Viscount in the amount of the future revenues, as stated by him. He would not enter into the details of this question, but simply state his sentiments. With respect to the re-opening of the tithe compositions, he agreed with the noble Viscount in thinking that some opportunity ought to be afforded of reconsidering them, or, at least, those compositions which were entered into under Lord Stanley's Act; but he saw no reason why former compositions should be suffered to be re-opened. He admitted, however, so much of the principle of the Bill. He was likewise disposed to agree with the noble Viscount in the necessity for adopting some measure to provide for the reconsideration of the distribution of the revenues of the Irish Church, with a view to apportion a due income to those persons who had the greatest proportion of duty to perform, and he was the more disposed to do this, because of the wishes of the members of that Church as for the general benefit of its clergy. The consideration and settlement of this question would not, he believed, if justice were done to the Church and to the people of Ireland, leave any such magnificent surplus as the noble Viscount had with such apparent ease and with so much triumph made out. He only hoped that such might prove to be the case when the details came before them, and the subject could be considered more accurately. But under all circumstances, he feared the noble Viscount would find his surplus to fail him. At all events, he was sure that, according to the views he entertained of the proper mode of applying the Church revenues, there would be 443 no such surplus. He would, however, go no further into the question; he was disposed to agree to the second reading of the measure, and that for the present was all he felt it necessary to say.
§ The Bill read a second time, and the Committee was fixed for Monday next.