Lords Sitting of 1 July 1836

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a second time:—Sugar Duties.
Petitions presented. By the Earl of WICKLOW, from Dissenters of Oilier Street, Dublin, against a further Grant to Maynooth.—By the Earl of HADDINGTON, from St. Mary's and St. Wenburgh's, Dublin, against the Municipal Corporations' (Ireland) Bill.— By Viscount DUNCANNOKTJ from Clonelty, for the Adjustment of the Tithe System.

SYSTEM OF EDUCATION (IRELAND).
The Earl of Wicklow The Earl of Wicklow rose to present a Petition on the system of Education as conducted under the auspices of the Board of Education in Ireland—a subject on which he had not had the opportunity of making any observations during the present Session, and on which, as he should not have another opportunity of delivering his sentiments, he prayed their Lordships to grant him the indulgence of being heard for a few minutes. The petition which he was about to present to their Lordships, prayed them not to sanction any grant, by Act of Parliament or otherwise, to increase the funds of the Board of Education in Ireland without a previous inquiry into the mode in which that Board conducted its system of education. Had the motion brought forward by a right reverend Friend of his on this subject been adopted by their Lordships, this petition would have been perfectly unnecessary. He much regretted that circumstances had prevented him from being present on the evening when his right reverend Friend brought

1123
forward his motion; for when he read the lucid, and eloquent, and argumentative speech of his right reverend Friend, calling for inquiry into the abuses which he recounted, he was surprised that anything should have prevented their Lordships from acceding to his just and equitable proposition. He was also surprised, considering the reflections which his right reverend Friend had shown their Lordships were cast upon the proceedings of the Commissioners of the Board of Education, that all parties in the State had not united in one common call for examination into the working of the system which those Commissioners were appointed to carry into execution. He should have thought that all parties would have united in that common call for inquiry—not only those who thought the construction of this Board vicious in itself, but also those friends and supporters of it who declared that it worked well and was highly beneficial. He was surprised that the supporters of this system of education had not gladly embraced the opportunity afforded them of showing to the country, that their statements were correct, and that those of his right reverend Friend were the reverse. It was quite clear that if the statements of his right reverend Friend were well founded, this Board ought not to be continued; whilst it was equally clear, that if those statements were destitute of foundation, they ought to meet with a public exposure, refutation, and denial. His right reverend Friend had said, that in direct opposition to the regulations of the Board itself, altars had been erected, and mass had been practised two hours daily in a great number of its schools—and this, too, if not with the sanction, at least with the knowledge of the Board itself. He had read in the travels through Ireland of a very impartial and ingenious man, which, though not published, were now in print, that on visiting one of the schools of this society, he had found that the prayers used in it were expounded to the children by a Roman Catholic master, and that the children were all in the habit of signing themselves with the cross during the time of their examination. When this traveller asked the Roman Catholic master this question—" If you had Protestant children in your school, would you carry on the same system of instructing the children in these religious tenets?"—the man answered—" I should feel it my duty to do
1124
so; but I should consult Father Williams, the priest of the parish, before I did so." Now, he asked the House, whether such a national system of education could be sanctioned by a British and Protestant House of Parliament? It had been said, indeed, that this system worked well; but the only proof which had yet been given of this assertion was a statement contained in the last Report of the Commissioners of Education. That appeared to him to be one of the most extraordinary Reports that he had ever yet read. He had waited upon his valued Friend, the noble Duke (Leinster), who was at the head of that Board, and he had had some reason to expect that his noble Friend would have been present to-day. However, his noble Friend was not present, and he was sorry for it. It was stated, as a proof that the system proposed by Lord Stanley for the united education of Protestants and Catholics worked well, that a large proportion of Protestant clergymen had applied to the Board for grants of money to erect schools under its auspices—it was stated, that the proportion of Protestants to Catholics in Ireland was as one to four, and that as the number of applications from Protestant clergymen was to the number of applications from Roman Catholic clergymen in that proportion, the system must have been successful. Now, if that Report had stated, that the children of Protestant parents were to the children of Roman Catholic parents as one to four, he could have understood the argument; but when it was recollected that there was the same number of Protestant clergymen in Ireland as there was of Roman Catholics, he could not see how the fact that the applications from Protestant clergymen was to the application of Roman Catholic clergymen as one to four proved the proposition which the Commissioners in their wisdom had laid down in their Report. He had no wish to run down the system of public education adopted under the auspices of Lord Stanley in Ireland. Before it was adopted he had been averse from its adoption, and he had made a motion in the House to prevent its adoption. There was a majority of their Lordships present in favour of his motion; but unfortunately the proxies had carried it against him. On that occasion, he said, that if the Kildare-street Society were not in existence, he should be most anxious that a system of this kind should be estab-

1125
lished. He would now say, that this system having been established, he should be sorry to see it subverted, and the Kildare-street Society erected upon its ruins. For he was convinced that the Kildare-street Society would not now be able to perform the same amount of good which it was performing at the time of its suppression. At the same time it was incumbent upon him to state, that it was generally believed in Ireland that that vigilant superintendence which the country at large, had a right to expect, was not exercised over the management of the schools under the control of the Board of Education. His sincere object in offering these remarks to their Lordships was to impress upon his Majesty's Government the necessity of adopting measures to conciliate the Protestant clergy, and to obtain their acquiescence in this system. It was, he admitted, difficult to overcome the prejudices, if such they might be called, of persons in their situation, but still he thought much might be done to conciliate and remove them. There were two grounds on which this system of education was objected to—the first was, that it was anti-Christian in not being sufficiently biblical; the second, that it was not fairly and impartially carried into effect. On the first of these grounds he did not object to the system, it might do much good, and it was therefore incumbent upon the Government to take care that it was not abused to do harm. He believed that it was abused now, and that sufficient attention had not been paid to the practical working of it. He thought that such an inquiry as these petitioners prayed forought to be instituted, in order that a remedy might be devised for these abuses, in case they were proved to exist. If such an inquiry were to take place, and the Government were to act fairly during the investigation into the existence of the abuses, and into the means of remedying them, the prejudices of the Protestant clergy would gradually subside, and finally the system would become beneficial. He had said on a former occasion, that as a system for the education of the Roman Catholic population of Ireland, it was a good one; but that it was not adapted for a general system of education embracing Protestants and Roman Catholics. He was prepared to contend, that those who obtained grants for the Board of Education, on the ground that its system was working well for the united, education
1126
of Protestants and Roman Catholics, were deceiving not Parliament only, but also the country at large. The noble Earl concluded by moving." That the Petition from the Vicar, Churchwardens, and Protestant Inhabitants of Rathmoyne, in the county of Meath, should be laid on their Lordships' Table."
The Marquess of Lansdownewas not aware that it was the intention of the noble Earl to call the attention of the House that evening to the subject of national education in Ireland. He believed, however, that the noble Earl's reason for entering into this somewhat irregular discussion was, that he did not intend to attend in his place after that evening, and that he was therefore anxious to deliver himself of a speech on this occasion. It was for the purpose of giving a contradiction to these statements, and showing how unworthy of credit they were, that he was induced to trouble their Lordships with a few observations, in order to state the result of the inquiry he had made into the subject. It had been stated by a right reverend Prelate, and the statement was much relied upon, that in a particular school in Ireland, stated to be a pet school of his, or on property belonging to himself, words were used as a copy said to be of a most seditious character, but certainly words of a very unusual character, being a prayer for the souls of the boys executed at the assize town at the previous assizes. As this statement had been made, he had thought it is duty to institute an inquiry into the facts of the case. The result of the inquiry enabled him to state,—first, that no such words were used as a copy in any school of his; secondly, that no such words were used as a copy in any school at all in the county; thirdly, that in consequence of a report which was circulated, that the words were used in another school, not a school of his, in that county, immediate inquiry was instituted by the Board, which, had been accused of neglecting its duty by permitting such words to be so employed, the result of which was to prove, that no such words had been used, but which led to subsequent inquiries connected with the conduct of the master, which terminated in his dismissal. That dismissal, however, had nothing to do with the particular fact alleged by the right reverend Prelate. As he had stated to their Lordships, there was not a particle of foundation for the

1127
assertion that these words were employed in any school in the county. Upon the rest of the subject he did not wish at that moment to touch. But he wished to express his entire concurrence in the hope of the noble Lord opposite., that the Protestant clergy might be induced to take an active part in the superintendence of the schools. If any obstruction were offered to the Protestant clergymen when they wished to obtain access to the schools, when their duty called them to superintend the spiritual welfare, and look to the comforts of the children present at those schools, then certainly it would be the duty of Government to extend protection to them in the discharge of that duty. He, as an individual Member of the Government, was ready to give every encouragement, to hold out every inducement, to offer every assistance, to lead them into so honourable a part.
The Bishop of Exetersaid, that the noble Marquess had stated that the circumstance said to have occurred had not taken place in the county. [The Marquess of Lansdowne.—In any school in the county.] There was a nicety in that distinction which he could not perceive; but what he was going to say was, that he had not the smallest doubt that the noble Marquess had entire confidence in the accuracy of the statements made to him. He could only say, that if there had been a Committee appointed to investigate the system of education in Ireland, then he would have had an opportunity of bringing before it the evidence on which he had made the statement. But it was just possible that in this inquiry mentioned by the noble Marquess, conducted he knew not how, where, or by whom, all the facts had not come out, and that it had not been made in the proper quarters. As far as his recollection went, he had not called the school a pet school at all, at least, he had not charged it with being a pet school of the noble Marquess, but he was conscious that it was impossible for the noble Marquess to direct all the affairs of his extensive property in Ireland, and he had been informed that such an incident had occurred in a school on the estate of the noble Marquess, and under the patronage of one of his agents. It was impossible for Parliament to give its support without inquiry to an institution respecting which such averments were made, and he was sure that the country would not be content till inquiry was
1128
made. Whenever it was made, he pledged himself not to prove his statement against that of the noble Marquess, but to adduce the evidence on which he had a right to suppose it capable of proof. He wished now to repeat the question which he had put to the noble Lord a fortnight ago, relative to the Annual Report of the Commission of Education. He wished to know when they might expect to see it on the table, for the Session was near its close, and if it were not soon produced, it might be impossible to take it into consideration.
The Duke of Leinsterexpected the report every day.
The Marquess of Lansdowneobserved, that a report had, he believed, prevailed in the part of the country referred to, that these words had been found written in the copy of one of the scholars, but it turned out that they had not been written in the school, but were found written in a farmhouse. Supposing that to be correct, it could have no possible bearing upon the question, whether these words were written as part of the instructions in the school. Had he been aware that this discussion was to come on, he would certainly have produced a letter from a gentleman on the spot, to whom the right reverend Prelate had alluded, his agent in the country, stating the facts in question, and expressing his readiness to confirm them on oath.
Petition laid on the Table.

FACTORY SYSTEM.
The Bishop of Exeterhad to present to their Lordships some Petitions upon a very important subject—so important, that he was sure they would permit him to trespass on their attention for a few minutes. The petitions were upon the Factory Question. The first was from the master manufacturers and cotton-spinners of the town and neighbourhood of Bradford, in the West Riding of Yorkshire. It was the result of the deliberations of a meeting of the master manufacturers and cotton-spinners, called by public advertisement, and was adopted, after a discussion, by a great majority of those present at the meeting. The next was a petition from persons acting as delegates of the workmen of the manufacturing districts of Yorkshire and part of Lancashire. The third was the petition of an individual, at least it must be treated as such, because it was signed by the chairman of a meeting of delegates representing the opera-

1129
tives of Bradford, Halifax, Huddersfield, and other places. The petitioners prayed their Lordships to pass a Bill providing that the time of working in mills and factories for persons under twenty-one years of age be limited to ten hours on five days of every week, and eight hours on the sixth. In a matter which concerned so large a class of the community, for it appeared that those engaged in manufactures and handicrafts, amounted, according to the decennial census, to no less than two-thirds of the population of Great Britain; he was sure their Lordships would be of opinion that their interests and rights deserved the most serious consideration. Notwithstanding this, it did unfortunately happen — and he thought their Lordships would admit that it had happened—that not only the condition of the factory children, the state of whom had so frequently engaged the attention of that House, but the moral interests of the manufacturing population in general, had not been dealt with as their vast and incalculable importance demanded. Due care had not been taken that the rising generation should be well instructed, should be brought up in the fear of God, and in the knowledge of their duty to man—a care which ought never to be neglected in any well-regulated community. He believed he might say, that there was scarcely a country in Europe, in which manufactures abounded, where greater attention had not been paid to the religious and moral welfare of the persons engaged in them. He believed that this might, in some degree, proceed from the political circumstances of this country: it was partly inseparable from its free government, for, in a country under a rule at all approaching despotism, an absolute monarch would have felt it to be his duty to watch more strictly the labour performed by the workmen, and the institutions intended for their protection and improvement, than was possible in a free country like this. He might say, that this was one of the penalties which we were compelled to pay for a free constitution, and he was quite ready to admit they must be ascribed to this cause; but still he thought they would agree with him, that all that was consistent with the spirit of our free institutions ought to be done for the protection of this most important and valuable part of the community, on whose labours the strength and importance of this great empire mainly
1130
rested. He would not attempt to detail to their Lordships any part of the misery and vice described in the evidence taken before the Parliamentary Committees. It was not necessary that he should do so on this occasion, but he must be permitted to say, that it appeared from returns recently made, that in one town alone, the great town of Manchester, no fewer than 8,000 children had been deserted by their parents, and found abandoned in the streets. This return comprehended the last four years, but it did not extend to the suburbs, where a number almost equal in amount had been found in a similar way deserted by their parents. The oppression to which the poor children were subject, and which they were constantly enduring in many of the mills, was too tremendous to contemplate. Within these very few weeks several persons had been convicted before a magistrate for employing five children for thirty-four hours consecutively without allowing them more than five hours for food and rest at differents parts of that time. The petitioners prayed that there should be a restriction on the hours of labour. He was well aware that it might be said, that such a restriction would be productive of great evil; that to grant it, would be to abandon the principle of freedom of labour. On that, he should not think it necessary to say much; he would only remark, that he thought it a most reasonable and well-founded demand, a demand resting on notorious facts, that it was the duty of the state to interfere even in behalf of the adults, to prevent them from being exposed to any destructive and pernicious intensity of labour. They might be told, that the labourers were not compelled to work—that they were free to abstain from it if they chose. But what freedom was that, where the only alternative was starvation, and while there was such an excess and superabundance of labour in the country, that the masters were certain of being able to extort from some of those in want of employment labour on any terms they chose to impose —namely, that they should work so long as human nature held together. Minors possessed of property were protected by the state, yet no steps were taken to guard the interests of those who were destitute and helpless. This was an important consideration, but it was so obvious, that he did not think it necessary to press it on

1131
their Lordships' attention. The prayer of one of the petitioners was, that the duration of labour might be restricted to ten hours for young children. Medical evidence of the highest character, both from the metropolis and the provinces, went to the full extent of saying that ten hours' labour was more than ought to be imposed on children, and that it was certainly the utmost extent that could be tolerated. Such was the testimony of men who had no interest but that of truth, whose character was pledged for the accuracy of the testimony which they gave, and who gave it as a most solemn duty which they owed, not only to their own character, but to the unfortunate subjects of it. It was a happy consideration in this case, that they had great reason to believe that no real loss would be incurred by the master-manufacturers, for many mills were now conducted where the work both of adults and children was restricted to ten hours, though the work was of the most important kind. He held a list, containing the names of many of these mills, in his hand, and he might state that the greatest individual cotton-spinner in Scotland, Mr. Dunn, of Duntocher, Mr. Greig, also a very extensive manufacturer, and Mr. Wood, of Bradford, the greatest worsted spinner in England, had voluntarily introduced this restriction into their factories from a sense of duty, and had had the satisfaction to find, that while they had obeyed the dictates of duty, their own interests had not suffered. A fourth gentleman to whom he felt bound to allude, was Mr. Fielden, Member of Parliament for Oldham, from whom he differed on almost every political question, who avowed himself a Radical Reformer, but who did not the lesson that account appear to him to be worthy of respect and veneration. That gentleman was a Radical Reformer, and he had never heard of any other, though there might be such, who began by carrying reform into his own business and affairs. He believed this gentleman had a vast property embarked in manufactures, to an amount, indeed, he was told, that would scarcely appear credible, and yet he had not only been willing to hazard all upon this great question; but, when the matter was under discussion in another place, he had had the magnanimity to exclaim, "If the question is between the Stability of manufactures, interested in them as I am, and justice to these poor
1132
children, throw manufactures to the winds." That declaration was made before an assembly, in which was delivered the famous speech of a right hon. Gentleman now no more, but which seemed to him to sink into insignificance before the declaration of Mr. Fielden. "Perish commerce, but live the constitution," was the famous apophthegm of Mr. Wyndham. In conclusion, he would only say that he thought the case, coming to their Lordships, as it did, with so many strong considerations, entitled to their most serious attention.
Viscount Melbournewished to make one observation in reference to what had fallen from the right rev. Prelate, but it was not his intention to go into the subject, although undoubtedly it was one of the greatest importance and interest. The right rev. Prelate had stated, that within the last four years 8,000 children had been abandoned by their parents in the town of Manchester. On hearing this statement, he had inquired of persons who were closely connected with that part of the country, and who declared that the statement was most erroneous. The return cited by the right rev. Prelate comprised all children who had been lost or had strayed, and had been taken in consequence to the police-office. It by no means followed that those children had all been deserted by their parents.
The Bishop of Exetersaid, that it appeared from a return in his hand, that in Salford 470 children had been lost in the course of four months. He then went on to say, he was reminded that recently an attempt had been made to fasten on their Lordships the blame consequent on the failure of an Act of Parliament introduced three years ago, for the protection of the factory children. He held in his hand a newspaper which appeared about a month ago, just at the time when public attention was most anxiously directed to the possibility of a collision with the other House of Parliament. It was there stated as aground of complaint against that House, that the failure of the Act of 1833 was owing to the treatment it received from their Lordships. That Act was so full of defects as to make it nearly inoperative, and to such a degree that Government thought it necessary to bring in a bill to repeal one of its worst provisions. This statement was as follows; —The clauses of the Act providing for the education of the factory children were mutilated very much, if we remember

1133
rightly, in the House of Lords, and neither the factory Commissioners, nor Government, who had adopted their plan, were responsible for the alterations which had pro tanto marred their efficiency. The fact, however, was, that the noble Lord whose name could never be mentioned (with too much respect), who had introduced the Bill elsewhere, had endeavoured in vain to get it through the House—that he was at last compelled to give it up to the Government—that they altered the whole of its provisions—that when it came up to their Lordships, one Committee reported in favour of the principle, and another (composed by a majority of two to one of noble Lords on the Ministerial side of the House) in favour of the details —and that it was ultimately passed with only such amendments, as rendered a provision clear and efficient, which would otherwise have been useless and ridiculous. It was, in fact, the measure of the Government of 1833.
Petitions to lie upon the table.