Lords Sitting of 26 February 1836

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a second time:—Transfer of Aids; Exchequer Bills.
Petitions presented. By the Earl of HADDINGTON, from the Union, of Thame, for the prolongation of the time for paying for building Workhouses.—By the Earl of CARLISLE, from Morpeth, for Relief from Agricultural Distress.

ORANGE SOCIETIES.
The Earl of Winchilseasaid, that a resolution on the subject of Orange Lodges having been agreed to by the House of Commons, and it having appeared by the public journals of this day, that the sentiments contained in the Address to his Majesty, founded on that resolution, had received the assent of his Majesty, he wished to be informed by the noble Viscount at the head of his Majesty's Government, to what extent that resolution went, and what societies it was intended to suppress? He asked this question for the purpose of clearly satisfying his own mind; for, as a member of that society against which the resolution appeared to be expressly levelled, he was anxious to know how he should frame his conduct as to the course that he ought to pursue hereafter with respect to that society, and what advice it would be

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proper for him to tender to others who were also members of the same association. Did it extend to Orange Societies, as at present instituted and governed by an oath, and known by signs? [The Duke of Cumberland,—"There is no oath."] Well, were those signs only to be abandoned? Or was an association, established in this country for the protection of the Protestant interest, for the protection of those principles which placed his Majesty's family on the throne of these realms for the support and protection of our Protestant institutions, to be wholly suppressed? For his own part, he thought that all secret signs and pass-words in societies were much to be regretted. He greatly regretted that in such a society as he alluded to they had been permitted. But the peculiar situation in which the Protestant body was placed, especially in Ireland, afforded some mitigating circumstances for adopting such a course. He had gone over to Ireland; he had been but a very few hours there; but he confessed that he went there for the purpose of making one common cause with the oppressed Protestants of that country, and to maintain that common interest which they mutually felt in the preservation of their Protestant institutions. Certainly, the course pursued in Parliament on this occasion appeared to him to be very extraordinary. The inquiry appeared to have been confined to the Orange institution, and to that alone. But, whatever might be done with reference to the Orange Society, he would freely avow that the cause which that society was instituted to support he yet cherished at the bottom of his heart; and the course which he should take hereafter would mainly depend on the answer he received from the noble Viscount. He would, however, without hesitation say, that he would give his most sincere and cordial advice to the members of the Society to abstain from secret signs. His great wish was to uphold pure and unimpaired their Protestant institutions, and to maintain those Protestant principles to which he had always been attached, and which he would support at the expense of property or of life itself. Many of the proceedings of Government appeared to him to be calculated to sacrifice the interests of the Protestant party in Ireland. Had it not beer openly avowed, within a very short space of time, by that individual who possessed
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such fearful power in Ireland, that he never had abandoned his project for the repeal of the Union—that, if he were disappointed in his views, he would recur to that measure—that, in fact, he only waited for an opportunity to have recourse to the best and most feasible means of attaining that object? When he saw the dreadful situation in which that country was placed, he could not avoid feeling the most painful apprehensions as to the safety of the Protestant population there. He held a letter in his hand, which he had received yesterday from Ireland, which gave the most appalling account of the state to which the Protestant clergy of Ireland were reduced. He begged leave to read an extract from that letter. He would not, for obvious reasons, quote names. The writer stated—"So-and-so-was, on Sunday last, denounced in chapel, by the priest. So-and-so, who is obliged to keep a guard of police in his house, while walking with his children in his garden, received a notification that he should not long escape vengeance. So-and-so, a most respectable curate, was struck with a stone, and desperately wounded. This could not have been on account of tithe proceedings, as the individual had nothing to do with any proceeding of the kind." He could multiply such cases an hundred, nay, a thousand fold, to prove the hostility which was evinced towards the Protestant clergy. Under circumstances such as these, he should stand forward to support the Protestant institutions of Ireland. He implored his Majesty's Ministers to vindicate the supremacy of the law in Ireland; and he could assure the noble Viscount that any measure which he might introduce for that purpose should command his support and assistance. He certainly did not mean, when he spoke of the Roman. Catholics of Ireland, to include the Roman Catholics of England. Upon that point he should no further encroach on the time of their Lordships. There was, however another subject on which he deemed it necessary for him to make a few observations. In his opinion the representative of the Crown in Ireland had not acted wisely, he might almost say that he had acted unconstitutionally, in removing from office individuals who were Orangemen, or who were suspected of being Orangemen.— The case to which he was about to call the attention of their Lordships was, he be-

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lieved, unparalleled. He alluded to the case of Mr. Lee, who, on the fourth of December last had received a notification from the Castle of Dublin that he had been selected to fill the situation of High Sheriff of the county of Wexford; but, on the sixteenth of February, after he had gone to considerable expense, Mr. Lee was removed from the situation on the ground that he was an Orangeman, or rather that he was suspected of being an Orangeman. The fact, however, he believed was, that Mr. Lee had refused to sign a requisition for a meeting to get up a complimentary Address to the Lord Lieutenant. The noble Earl referred to the correspondence which had taken place on the subject. The first letter was the notification, on the fourth of December, 1835, of Mr. Lee's appointment to the situation of High. Sheriff of the county of Wexford. The second, a letter from Mr. Lee, announcing that he had made all the necessary arrangements, and was ready to undertake the duties of the office; inquiring also when the commission would be sent down, and stating that no time was to be lost. The third letter was dated Dublin Castle, February 16th, and informed Mr. Lee that his Excellency the Lord Lieutenant, having learned, from a quarter on which he could place perfect reliance, that Mr. Lee was a member of an Orange Lodge, he felt himself obliged to annul his appointment, and to place another gentleman in his situation. The letter expressed regret that Mr. Lee had been put to any expense or inconvenience in consequence of the change. Now, from a communication which had since been received, it appeared that Mr. Lee was ready to prove that he was not at the time, or ever had been, a member of an Orange Lodge. Such proceedings were not to be borne. If Government had come to the determination that no persons holding Protestant principles should be elected to office in Ireland, in God's name let the fact be fairly avowed, but do not let gentlemen, like Mr. Lee, be insulted in this manner. He had felt it right, under the circumstances of the country, to join the Orange association. He wished that there was no such thing as party feeling, except that great party feeling which had for its object the welfare of the country. He joined the Orange institution because he believed that it would prove the salvation of Protestantism; and, if it cost him
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his title, his property, or his life, he would, and he stated his sentiments most distinctly, support to the last the principles on which that association was founded.
The Duke of Cumberlandsaid, that from the position he held in connection with the Orange Lodges, and from the allusions which were made to him, many of which were most unjustifiable—unjustifiable and false—founded on false assumptions, and leading to the most unwarrantable inferences—he considered it his duty to make an observation or two to their Lordships. In the first place, having read the address from the other House, and his Majesty's most kind and gracious answer, the first step he took was to communicate with the officers of the Irish institution as to the best course he and they should adopt, and the opinion they unanimously entertained was that no time should be lost in recommending the Orange Society immediately to dissolve. He was sure, that as loyalty to the Throne, and devotion to the defence of the Protestantism of the empire was the sole principle of the Orange Society, all classes of Orangemen would see the wisdom of adopting his recommendation. He would say one word more in reference to the accusation against Orangemen of being bonded together by secret oaths. It was this: in the Orange institution there were no oaths, no oaths whatever. Though the societies might now be dissolved, their principles could not and would not die. While he avowed to their Lordships his entire acquiescence in the wish of his Majesty, he would support to the last the principles which Orange Societies were founded to defend.
Viscount Melbournehad heard with unfeigned satisfaction the statement which had been just made by the illustrious Duke. It was, however, what he had expected from one holding his Royal Highness's station. It much anticipated what he (Viscount Melbourne) had been about to say in answer to the questions which had been put to him by the noble Earl, His Majesty's Government and himself were most anxiously desirous, that they should not be called upon to take any strong measures for carrying the Resolutions of the House of Commons respecting Orange societies into effect; that they should not feel it necessary to follow up those Resolutions by any proceeding whatever; but that the general feeling which, had been expressed in all quarters, and in

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a manner so especially honourable to them by gentlemen belonging to Orange societies, who had declared their intention to withdraw from those societies, together with the unanimous vote of the House of Commons on the subject, would combine to put an end to Orange societies, without any further interference on the part either of his Majesty's Government or of Parliament. He owned, however, that he had heard the speech of the noble Earl with much concern. He trusted, that when the noble Earl had devoted more consideration to the subject, he would feel the propriety of imitating the example of the Illustrious Duke, and of following the advice which the Illustrious Duke had so clearly and distinctly given. If that should be (as he trusted) the course which the noble Earl should eventually follow, he should of all men be most anxious to bury all the past in oblivion, and to refrain from all further observation, or from the further expression of difference of opinion on so painful a subject. As to the question which the noble Earl had put to him, with respect to the extent of the Resolutions which had been passed by the House of Commons, all that he could do was to refer to the terms of the Resolutions itself which were these: — "That a humble address be presented to his Majesty, praying that his Majesty will be graciously pleased to take such measures as to his Majesty may seem advisable for the effectual discouragement of Orange-lodges—."That passage distinctly pointed to those societies, as at present constituted. The Resolution proceeded:—"and generally of all political societies, excluding persons of a different religious faith, using secret signs and symbols, and acting by means of associated branches." That part of the resolution was intended to prevent evasion by the assumption of some other name; and of course every other society answering to the description must feel itself comprehended in the scope and tendency of the resolution. He must again, therefore, confess his anxious hope that what had been done would be found sufficient for the attainment of the object in view: and that neither Government nor Parliament would be called upon to take any further measure. Me gave the noble Earl credit for the sincerity with which the noble Earl believed the principles which he had avowed, and for the resolution with which
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he had declared that he would maintain those principles; although he thought that the noble Earl had been betrayed into a little exaggeration when he talked of his readiness to sacrifice his title and his life; for neither the one nor the other was in the least danger. But although, he gave the noble Earl credit for sincerity, he could not give him credit for wisdom and prudence with respect to the course which he had stated it to be his intention to pursue. He thought the noble Earl would find the Protestant religion safer and stronger without the aid of any of these societies. And when the noble Earl called on his Majesty's Government to maintain the supremacy of the law, all that he could say in answer was, that he knew of no instance, in which the law had not been carried into effect for the protection of all classes of his Majesty's subjects. He was not prepared to enter into the case which had been alluded to by the noble Earl; but he understood that the appointment of Mr. Lee to the shrievalty of the county of Wexford had not been confirmed, because it was believed that that gentleman belonged to an Orange society. The principle on which his Majesty's Government in Ireland had acted was, of not appointing to any office —and more especially to any office of the magistracy or the police—any one who, belonging to a secret society, was bound to pay obedience to another power besides that of the State, and who was identified in his feelings and wishes with only a portion of the inhabitants of the country.
The Earl of Winchilseasaid, that Mr. Lee never was a member of the Orange, or any other society. He had refused to sign an address requiring the sheriff to call a county meeting to address the Lord-lieutenant, and that was the reason for his having been used in this manner which he (the Earl of Winchilsea) had described. As to what had fallen from the noble Viscount with reference to himself, he must be allowed to say, that he should form his own judgment as to the course which he should pursue with a view to the best interests of his country. He was not a party man; and his only object was to protect the church to which he belonged. He hoped that the advice which had been given by the illustrious Duke would be followed, and that the Orange societies would be dissolved; although it was notorious that a conspiracy existed in Ire-

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land for the subversion of the Protestant church and the Protestant government.
The Marquess of Londonderryshould not have troubled their Lordships but for what had fallen from the noble Viscount. The whole of the proceedings of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, since he had been in that country, had been solely and exclusively directed to uphold the Catholic party against the Protestant partly. He said that advisedly. All the appointments in Ireland, within that period, had been decidedly influenced, by one individual, who is a Catholic. This partiality was going forward in every part of the country. If the noble Viscount would act upon his declaration, that there should be a fair and honest upholding of Protestant as well as of Catholic interests, he should have his firm and cordial support upon every measure which he might bring forward with such an object. But the fact was, and no one connected with Ireland could deny it, that there was one universal degradation to which the Protestants of Ireland were at present subject; and unless the manner in which the Government of Ireland had been lately conducted were changed, the most fatal consequences must ensue. He could not but regret that the noble individual, whom privately he must ever respect, in consequence of his long knowledge of him, should have been officially connected with one of the most monstrous, he had almost said one of the most unjustifiable, acts that had ever been done by any individual who had held the station in Ireland now occupied by the noble Lord. That that noble Lord should entertain a person at his table who had been recently making speeches so abominable—reviling royalty on the one side, and treating their Lordships' House with derision on the other—that he should have treated that person as a guest at his table; that he should have invited him to a royal feast (for a royal feast it was), and that such a circumstance should have been passed over by the first Minister of the Crown, without having submitted it to their Lordships' attention, or without having recalled that Lord Lieutenant; and that Ireland should have been witness to such a degradation, and to such reprehensible conduct, was, he must say, most monstrous. The circumstance to which be had adverted ought to have been visited with the severest censure; for it certainly was one of the most disgraceful acts ever
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performed by a man in the situation of the noble Lord at the head of the Government of Ireland, to treat with hospitality an individual just warm from the aspersions which he had cast upon the Crown and upon the upper House of Parliament, and whose conduct ought to have excited nothing but disgust and indignation. He hoped his noble Friend near him would follow up the statement which he had made respecting the appointment to the office of Sheriff of Wexford, by moving for papers illustrative of the fact that the appointment of Mr. Lee to the office had not been confirmed because that Gentleman would not sign an address to the Lord-lieutenant. The Lord-lieutenant had made a tour throughout Ireland; amongst the entertainments which. were given for him, was a kind of Radical -breakfast at Belfast, at which not a single gentleman of Conservative politics—he might add not a loyal man—of all those who belonged to the county in which it took place was present, with perhaps two or three exceptions, the cause of whose presence he should explain. One of the two exceptions to which he had alluded was a noble Friend of his, who was certainly a staunch Conservative, but whose attendance at this breakfast was accounted for by the fact that the Lord Lieutenant, white he continued in that part of the country, stopped at his house. The other Conservative was a Protestant clergyman, whom the Lord Lieutenant had made his chaplain. These constituted the whole of the Conservatives who attended that entertainment. What happened six weeks or two months after the departure of the Lord Lieutenant? The Protestant Conservatives had a meeting in the same place, at which no less than eight hundred of the Protestant Conservatives of Ireland were present, not one of whom had gone near the Lord Lieutenant's breakfast; and the property of these gentlemen who had thus assembled, and who advocated principles diametrically opposed to those which the noble Viscount attempted to promulgate in Ireland, was estimated at 400,000 l. a-year. The noble Viscount smiled but he could tell the noble Viscount that these facta told heavily against the noble Viscount's Lieutenant, or he should rather say, against the Lord-Lieutenant of the hon. and learned Member for Dublin, which could not be controverted. He had stated circumstances which the noble

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Viscount could not deny; he made a charge of misconduct which he defied the noble Viscount to defend. When the noble Viscount acted agreeably to his professions, he should be prepared to bury in oblivion all that had passed; bat so long as Catholic exhibitions were excused and patronised by the Government of Ireland; so long as Catholics were appointed to all the offices in the gift of that Government, and the Conservative Assistant Barristers, who had honestly done their duty, were displaced in order to confer there situations on Catholic Barristers; so long, he repeated, as this course was continued (which up to the present hour had been pursued), it was unnecessary for him to observe, in conformity with the expression so often used—that the power behind the Throne was greater than the Throne itself—there was a power behind the Government of the noble Viscount stronger than that Government itself. Whilst this system was suffered to exist he would treat the words of the noble Viscount as the idle wind; but when the noble Viscount's conduct and that of the Government was changed, he won id be willing to accord to the principles which the noble Viscount avowed their due estimation.
Subject dropped.