Lords Sitting of 18 February 1836

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By Lord HOLLAND, from certain Baptists, for Relief; and by Lord ABINGER, from Brecknock, in favour of Mr. BUCKINGHAM'S Claims.

COMMUTATION OF TITHES.
Lord Dacrepresented a Petition from the Owners and Occupiers of Land, and the Tithe Owners of the Eastern Division of the County of Kent, praying for a Commutation of Tithes. He was anxious to bring under the notice of their Lordships one part of the petitioners' case. They stated, that in their opinion, the adoption of commutation, on a scale of recent payments for tithes, would operate as a permanent exaction of very considerable inequality and great extent. He concurred in opinion with the petitioners, and would add, that if a scale of commutation should be formed from present payment, or upon the value of the present actual produce, it would operate in the same manner, though not in the same degree. In any mode of commuting tithes, the charge of a perpetual annuity on poor land, would be more than equal to the rent, if recently cultivated by the application of extraneous capital.
Petition laid on the Table.

AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS.
Lord Wynfordrose to move for the appointment of a Select Committee to take into consideration the Distress of Agriculturists. As it was not the intention of the noble Viscount at the head of his Majesty's Government to oppose the Motion, he should not trouble their Lordships except by moving, for the Committee in the same words as it was moved for in the House of Commons: "That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the state of Agriculture, and into the causes and extent of the Distress which pressed on

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some important branches thereof, and that the Committee should Report their opinion thereon."
Viscount Melbournefeared, that those whose sanguine expectations anticipated any extensive measures of relief from the labours of the Committee, would not find their expectations realised; at the same time the noble and learned Lord having thought fit to move for a Committee, the parties most interested themselves desiring it, and many Members of this House thinking it ought to be granted, it was quite impossible for him, especially after the recommendation in the King's Speech, to oppose such a Motion. On the pact of the Government, therefore, the Committee was conceded cheerfully, and, although they could not take the conduct of that Committee upon themselves, there was no Member of the Administration who would not feel anxious to give every facility to its inquiries in his power. The statement had been introduced into the King's Speech in order to show to the agriculturists, that his Majesty's Government sympathised in those statements of distress which had been made from every part of the country. Nothing could be more reprehensible than any endeavour to make this a party question; just as if they were not fully aware, that with the interest of the agricultural community, their own interests were closely identified, and that in their prosperity, or adversity, their own adversity, or prosperity, was, in fact, bound up. He trusted that the Committee would enter upon the consideration of this subject on large and extended grounds; but he also, though he was not for limiting the inquiries of that Committee, begged to guard his Majesty's Government against being supposed in any manner to countenance any of those wild remedies which had lately been, proposed by certain individuals, and above all, against countenancing anything which could in the slightest degree endanger that preservation of the national faith, or the real welfare and prosperity of the country. Such a measure did he consider the tampering with the currency under any pretence whatever, whether in the shape of increasing the amount of paper money, or in the more avowed shape of debasing the coin. Their Lordships were aware, however much the pressure upon agriculture was to be lamented, that that pressure was not confined to this country.
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The French Minister of Finance En a speech lately addressed to the French Chamber, had said, that whilst all engaged in commercial pursuits were in a flourishing state, he lamented to say, that the agriculturists were suffering, but that such suffering arose from the low price of grain. Every person who read the newspapers was also aware that the pressure on this interest was so great in Holland, that that kingdom had departed from its ancient system—from that system which it had so long pursued, and which, in point of fact, had been the cause of its commercial greatness—namely, an unlimited freedom of commerce, and had imposed duties on all com imported; and though doubtless there was some ground for this departure from the old system of that country, he could not but view it with feelings of regret. The Committee would also consider the operation of all the laws respecting and regulating the importation of corn, and consider in what manner they affected the general prosperity of the country, as well as the general prosperity of agriculture. There was one preliminary inquiry which the Committee should make in considering any remedy that might be proposed to them for the immediate relief of agriculture, namely—whether that would have an injurious effect upon any other great interest of the country, for it was quite impossible to depress other interests, manufacturing or commercial, without agriculture itself sympathising in their depression. He trusted that the Committee would take into full consideration all those subjects which, doubtless, would be submitted to them, and he could only repeat, that any assistance or facility which it was in his power to give the Committee, he should feel most happy to afford.
Lord Ashburtonwished that the noble Lord, in proposing the Committee, had stated the precise objects he intended to bring under its consideration, and the benefits that were likely to be derived by the country from it. It was true, as the noble Viscount bad stated, that the whole subject would go before the Committee, to be dealt with in the largest sense; but he was not very sanguine of anything that Parliament could do. He was as much convinced as any man could be of the distress under which that portion of the agricultural interest which constituted the producing part laboured; but at the same time, he felt firmly, convinced, that little

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or nothing could be done for them by Parliament. He entirely concurred in the recommendation of the Committee of the House of Commons in 1832, of which he was a Member, that relief was more likely to be afforded by the cautious forbearancce of Parliament from meddling at all, than by any interference of his Majesty's Government. The subject having been mentioned in his Majesty's Speech, the noble Viscount could not do otherwise than adopt the course be had done. He should be sorry however, if the country were led away by the illusion that anything which Parliament could do would materially assist them. The farmers of this country had already a complete monopoly of the consumption of the country. Could Parliament give them more? He did not apprehend that the noble Lord, or the Committee would devise any imaginable measure which could give the agriculturists the relief they sought. He thought it right to make these few observations, not out of any intention to oppose the granting of the Committee, but in order to guard the country from any anticipations of material benefit to be derived from its labours. It was natural for the people of all countries to look to Government for relief, but few were aware how limited the power of any Government must be in cases of this kind. The noble Viscount stated that this question would be largely and generally gone into by the Committee; he should, however, feel some anxiety if the Committee thought proper to deal with a great question, which in his opinion had not the slightest bearing on the agricultural interest of the country, viz., the currency and the standard as it at present stood. There never was a greater delusion practised than in the statement that it had the slightest effect in creating agricultural distress. The standard of the country was a subject of great importance for it affected all the interests of the nation, and had no more to do with the distressed state of agriculture than with any other portion of the industry of the country. He had taken the liberty of making these observations, lest it should go abroad that the Members of that House, or a majority of its Members, were inclined to countenance anything in the shape of a depreciation of the currency. It would be quite easy to show to the agriculturists that it was particularly their interest to oppose any depreciation of the standard
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as a measure which would be more injurious to them than to any other class; for, unless they at the same time completely altered the existing corn-laws, a reduction of the standard would have the effect of depriving them of the protection which they at present enjoyed, and break in upon that monopoly of the corn-market which they at present possessed. The protecting duty on corn at present kept out the foreign corn-grower until the prices here rose to 60 s. or 65 s.; but if the standard were to be reduced, the value of that protection would be reduced from that sum perhaps to 40 s. or 45 s. Never was a more wild and absurd notion than that Parliament could be guilty of such consummate ignorance and such consummate bad faith as to be induced to tamper in any way with the standard of circulation in this country; nor was anything more wanting to add to this absurdity than that the notion should be especially fostered by the farmers, who of all men would be most injured by its realization. He had expected that the noble and learned Lord who moved for this Committee, would have favoured them with his views upon the question; but the noble and learned Lord had not done so. He should not, therefore, advert to some of those points to which he should otherwise have felt it necessary to allude. Some persons had, he knew, put it forth as their opinion, that the present protecting corn-duties were rather injurious to the English farmers than otherwise. He thought differently, and it was his belief that the farmers must look to the strict maintenance of those laws, as affording them the only security for the preservation of their property—the only chance of deriving a reasonable profit from the expenditure of their capital, and the application of their industry. When first proposed, the advantage to be derived from them was of course speculative—all artificial systems of this kind were matters of experiment—but the experiment had been tried with success, and the result proved that protection to the farmer was not inconsistent with the general interests of society. Again, he would call upon all persons interested in this question to beware of yielding to the delusion that any relief could fairly be anticipated from tampering with the currency.
The Earl of Winchilseafinding that the noble and learned Lord had placed his

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name upon the Committee, requested that it might be withdrawn, for he certainly was one of those who, in common with a considerable body of practical men in this country, had paid the greatest attention to the question of agricultural distress, and who laboured under the delusion that the currency had a particular bearing upon the subject, although he did not attribute the existing distress entirely to that cause. Whatever his opinions in this respect were he was the last man to tamper with the currency, or to tamper with public faith or public credit. But he did believe that the alteration which had taken place in our currency had materially affected the agricultural interest. It had contracted the circulating medium of the country, and by contracting the circulating medium it had reduced prices—it had put it out of the power of the Farmer to obtain that credit of which he could formerly avail himself, and compelled him to take his produce to the first maket, and sell it there at any price it would fetch, however low, because he wanted money, and could no longer obtain it on the credit of his stock from the country banker. Not that he advocated a return to the old system of country banking, for nothing could be more pernicious than that any man, or any body of men, should be allowed to issue notes without limit, and without any guarantee of their capability to meet the demands which might in consequence be made upon them. If the consideration of the question of the currency was to be excluded from the inquiry of the Committee, he thought the Committee was a mere delusion, and it had better be given up altogether, for it would not give satisfaction to the agricultural body nor would it give satisfaction to a very considerable body of practical men in this country, who entertained very strong opinions upon the subject. Of course it was not the only question which ought to engage the attention of the Committee. Amongst other things there were certain public burdens which were thrown exclusively on the land. Public prosecutions —the maintenance of highways—the preservation of the public peace; in the benefit of all these the community at large partook, but the whole expense was thrown exclusively upon the land. There were also other subjects which would come within the scope of the inquiry; but, if the question of the currency were to be
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excluded, the Committee appeared to him to be useless.
Lord Ashburtonnever suggested that the Committee should exclude the consideration of the currency. He was anxious that the noble Earl should be on the Committee because he should then be certain that the question would be fully discussed. He was merely anxious to prevent the getting abroad of any impression that they were, in the slighest degree, disposed to countenance the depreciation of the standard.
The Marquess of Westminsterwas unwilling to prolong the discussion, but he might perhaps be allowed to say a few words, for he agreed in part with what had fallen from the noble Earl, and also in part with what had fallen from the noble Lord opposite (Ashburton). He was surprised to hear, for he was not in the House at the time, that the noble and learned Lord who had moved the appointment of this Committee had done so without giving any reasons for it, or entering into any statement of the position of this interesting question at this particular period. Nor did the noble and learned Lord state what course of inquiry he should propose for the adoption of the Committee, nor the probable remedies which he should submit to their consideration. This he thought the noble and learned Lord ought to have done. As it was, he feared the country would be much disappointed by the result of the Committee's deliberations. The noble Viscount at the head of his Majesty's Government had assented to the proposition for a Committee, and, under all the circumstances, the noble Viscount was right in doing so. It was desirable that their Lordships should appoint a Committee of inquiry, but it was also absolutely necessary that the country should understand that very little could be expected to result from it, and if the agriculturists expected any benefit from it they would be greatly disappointed. The noble Viscount had said the Committee would, in the course of the inquiry, advert to the existing corn-laws, and the noble Lord opposite (Lord Ashburton) had protested against any alteration on that head. Now, if he thought that the Committee to be appointed would recommend, he would not say the entire repeal of the corn-laws but the repeal of almost the whole of the regulations affecting the

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importation of corn, preserving a small duly only, he should look upon the Committee with a much more favourable eye than he did at present. It would be the wisest course they could adopt. The advocates for the corn-laws argued for them as a protection to the farmer. Now, as far as these laws were to be regarded as a protection to the landed interests, they had completely failed, for corn had for some time past been lower in price than ever, and yet foreign corn had been completely excluded from the English markets. Without entering into any lengthy arguments on this point, which would be altogether out of place on the present occasion, he would confine himself to the objection that they gave a monopoly, and never yet was there a monopoly which was not prejudicial to the public interest—there never yet was a monopoly which did not fail of accomplishing the end it proposed to attain. If he thought that the Committee would entertain this question, and come to the same conclusion with himself, no one would more cordially support the Motion than he would; but he knew too well that no such result would follow. The noble and learned Lord had not stated what his proposed remedies were, but if he could judge from the noble and learned Lord's speeches elsewhere, and the resolutions of the Central Agricultural Association, of which the noble and learned Lord and the noble Earl were Members, those remedies were of a nature that he could not countenance. He never was more surprised in his life than at the extraordinary resolutions to which that association came the other day. It was, perhaps, somewhat difficult to understand their meaning; but, if he read them aright, either they arrived at a Bank Restriction Act, or, failing that, to sponge out a very large portion of the national debt. As to the first point he agreed with the noble Lord (Ashburton), that nothing was less likely than that the Committee would agree to recommend the renewal of Bank Restriction. Our currency and our credit now stood on a solid foundation; and so long as our credit was solid, there was no fear of the want of a sufficient quantity of paper and money to meet the ordinary wants of the community. As to the equitable adjustment in 1819, when the alteration was made, it might have been proper to have contemplated its possibility and its prudence, but
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he did not now see how any equitable adjustment could be made. Doubtless the landed interest was heavily burdened—more heavily than the monied interest. A man who derived 5,000 l. per annum from a money investment might live upon 50 l. per annum, and add the whole remainder of his income yearly to his principal, whilst a man who derived a smaller income from land had to submit to fifty deductions before he could touch a farthing of it. The advocates of equitable adjustment said, "You cannot burden the landed interest any more. We are willing to do our best, but if our burdens press so heavily upon us as to prevent our paying the interest of the national debt, and if you cannot remove those burdens, there is no remedy but sponging out some of the principal." He should not discuss these questions at present. He regretted that the remedy which an alteration of the corn laws would, in his opinion, afford, was not likely to be regarded favourably by the Committee. He should not oppose its appointment, but he anticipated that very little advantage would result from its labours.
The Earl of Winchilseawas sorry to have been understood as advocating a depreciation of the currency. So far from considering such a measure beneficial to the landed interest, he agreed that it would be most injurious. He was certainly a member of the Agricultural Association, but it was perfectly well understood that his independence as a Member of the Legislature would be in no wise compromised by any resolution of the Association. Though he had not heard a depreciation of the currency advocated, he had heard many persons advocate an extension of the circulating medium of the country, and he agreed that such an extension would materially lighten the burdens of the agriculturists; but there was a wide difference between this and depreciation. With regard to what had been said about equitable adjustment, he was sure that no men were more willing than the agriculturists to pay their utmost to maintain the national faith in the most unlimited sense of the word, but the distress that had fallen on them was so great, that many of them had put the question, what were they to do if they could not pay the interest? [The Marquess of Westminster: An equitable adjustment was proposed as an alternative.] It was not proposed as a

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remedy to sponge out the national debt. The landed interest was most desirous of keeping good faith; but if they could no longer pay, what was to be done?
The Marquess of Westminsterremarked, that was precisely what he stated—that in the presumed event of the agriculturists being so hard pressed as to be unable to meet the demands made upon them, and a Bank Restriction Act being refused, they would look to an equitable adjustment as the only alternative.
Lord Wynfordwas exceedingly sorry that the course which he had felt it his duty to take bad not met with the approval of the noble Marquess, for whose opinions he had the highest respect, and in conformity with whose judgment he was most desirous of acting. But, notwithstanding what had fallen from the noble Marquess, he still thought, that as the motion was not opposed, it would have been highly improper in him to have introduced it with any formal speech. His Majesty, as the noble Viscount opposite had very properly reminded him, had himself called their attention to it in the Speech from the Throne, and the House of Commons had already appointed a Committee to inquire into the causes and extent of the existing distress, and into the remedies of which it is susceptible. It struck him that nothing could have been more absurd than for him to have got up and detailed reasons for going into an inquiry which every one admitted ought to be made, and specifying remedies which it was the very object of that inquiry to ascertain. He was one of those persons (perhaps he was influenced by the habits of his previous life) who would rather decide after he had heard the facts than before. As to the desire of his noble Friend (the Earl of Winchilsea) to withdraw from the Committee, he should be most sorry to assent to such a proposition, for if his noble Friend despaired, then must he despair also. Had he despaired of affording the agriculturist relief he need not have done what he had—had he despaired he should not have proposed to their Lordships to go into a Committee of Inquiry. He only desired a fair, impartial, and searching inquiry. He only desired that what justice dictated to be done should be done; and he was quite sure, that when the facts of the case were fully before them, they could not fail to devise some remedy, which, if it did not entirely
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remove, would at least mitigate, the distress. The other branches of industry, which were now flourishing, had been as much depressed at times as agriculture at the present moment; and he saw no reason to doubt that, if strict justice were done, better times would again return, and the agriculturists be as prosperous as a body of men so numerous, so industrious, and so important to the welfare of the country, ought to be. He disclaimed anything like a desire to derange the currency. He had heard some persons advocate the extension of the circulating medium; but that was another matter. Indeed, he had often heard his noble Friend (Lord Ashburton) advocate a silver standard, yet no one considered that as an attempt to derange the currency so as to affect the national credit. What his own particular views were he should not at present state, because they would be naturally influenced by the facts which might be involved in the course of that inquiry. He should therefore simply move for the appointment of a Committee of Inquiry.
Committee appointed.

SPAIN.
The Marquess of Londonderrywould take this opportunity of asking, whether the noble Viscount (Viscount Melbourne) would object to produce the letter written by his noble colleague at the head of Foreign Affairs to the Government of the Queen of Spain, relative to the twenty-seven prisoners of whom he had spoken on a former evening, and the answer received thereto? This would enable him to see if the noble Secretary for Foreign Affairs was sincere in his professions of anxiety to obtain the release of the unfortunate men he had referred to. He would also ask if the refusal on the part of the Queen of Spain's Government had prevented the noble Viscount's colleague from taking any further steps? He was anxious to press this point, for last Session, with the assistance of his noble; Friend behind him, he had, by repeatedly adverting to the unjust imprisonment of Captain Campbell by the Portuguese Government, succeeded in obtaining the liberation of that gallant officer, and he was sure that if their Lordships felt as he did the hardship of the case of these twenty-seven unfortunate prisoners, who were made captives against the law of nations and against all precedent, they

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would unite with him in calling upon his Majesty's Government to use such strong and decided language to the Spanish Government, as would, doubtless, insure their immediate liberation.
Viscount Melbournehad no objection to produce the papers. The persons in question were removed from Santander to Corunna for this reason—that at the former place their lives were in danger. He saw no reason why the refusal that had been given should prevent his noble colleague from persevering in his efforts to procure their entire liberation. At the same time he did not admit the statement of the noble Marquess, that those prisoners were taken against the law of nations, or the rules of war.
Papers to be moved for to-morrow.