Lords Sitting of 11 February 1836

MINUTES.
Bill. Read a third time:—Capital Punishments Amendment.
Petitions presented. By Lord WYNFORD, from the County of Lincoln, for an Inquiry into the Causes of Agricultural Distress.

NATIONAL EDUCATION—(IRELAND.)
The Earl of Rodenwas extremely anxious to avail himself of the earliest opportunity which offered itself in the present Session of putting certain questions as a prelude to the introduction of a subject which, in his estimation, was a most important one, and involved in its results the most vital interests of society. The best manner in which he conceived he could introduce the subject to their Lordships, was by putting certain questions to his Majesty's Ministers. He had to apologize to the noble Marquess opposite (Lansdowne) for selecting him as the person through whom to put those questions; but when he remembered the deep interest which the noble Marquess had always taken in the subject of Irish education he felt he could not make a better selection; and though he had the misfortune to differ from the noble Marquess in the conclusions to which they came upon the subject, still he had to thank the noble Marquess for the courtesy which he always exhibited in discussing the subject, and to admit that the noble Marquess had been ever most ready to furnish every information, for which he (the Earl of Roden) tendered his sincerest acknowledgment. Their Lordships would remember that early in the last Session, when his (the Earl of Roden's) friends sat on the opposite side of the House, he felt it his duty to move for the production of certain, papers connected with the subject of national education in Ireland, which he then and now believed to be of the utmost importance to enable him to form a full and impartial judgment upon the subject. He had waited during the whole Session, and yet, notwithstanding his anxiety upon the subject, he could not, during the entire period, procure those papers to be laid upon, the Table of the House. He had

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felt it his duty more than once to urge the Ministry, towards the close of the Session, to procure those returns from the Commissioners; and it would be in the recollection of their Lordships, that the noble Marquess had stated in his place that it was with the greatest satisfaction he laid the Papers on the Table; but their Lordships must also remember that the noble Marquess further added there was one paper which he regretted it was not in his power to produce, the Commissioners not being able to furnish it. That paper was one with which more than any other, he was desirous to be furnished, as it was the one which was the most important to him in putting forward his arguments on (his Subject, The paper to which he alluded was a return of the names of the children attending the schools, with a statement distinguishing the religion of each child. It was a point of the utmost importance to have such a document, as upon it he should found the principal part of his argument. He was satisfied that the system of National Education in Ireland never would be adapted to the feelings, the principles, and the wants of the Protestant population of that country. There must be some reason for wishing to withhold this important document. He did not wish to pronounce a censure against any person, but the Commissioners ought to have produced the document. There could be no difficulty in procuring such a document, inasmuch as one day during every week the scholars were separated from each other for the purposes of religious instruction. He again must repeat, that under those circumstances, and seeing how easily the document could be obtained, there must be some motive unknown to the House, unknown perhaps, to the noble Lords opposite, but certainly well known to the Commissioners, why, up to the present hour, the document was so pertinaciously withheld. One of the questions which he wished to put to the noble Marquess was with reference to this subject. There was another question also to which he was anxious to have an answer. Since the House had met, the second Report of the Commissioners of Irish Education had been laid on the Table of the House. He held it in his hand, but in referring to it, it was not his intention to enter into any discussion, as an opportunity would soon be afforded of opening up the whole subject. There were,
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however, one or two points in the Report to which he was desirous of calling their Lordships' attention. The Report, after stating the great success which the new institution had met with in Ireland, by the union of so many persons of all classes of his Majesty's subjects, proceeded to set forth, that "the Commissioners may safely conclude, that the new system of education has proved generally beneficial, and acceptable to Protestants and Roman Catholics, according to their respective calling." That assertion, however, he would take the liberty of denying. The Commissioners further said, "That though, from a misapprehension of the rule on which the system is founded, it originally met with much opposition, yet it has succeeded beyond our highest expectation, and reasonable men of all parties are daily manifesting their approbation of it." It was his happiness and his privilege to live in Ireland, amongst people of all classes, and he trusted that he was in the habit of meeting with reasonable men. Now, he should like to know where those reasonable men were to be found of whom these Commissioners had spoken in their Report. He should be glad to argue the case with them in a reasonable manner; and if they could convince him that the system now adopted was suited to the wants of the Protestants of Ireland, and was worthy of the support of a Protestant country, as well for the benefit of Protestants as of Roman Catholics, then he would unite with those reasonable men, and give up all further opposition. He fell the greatest respect for those Commissioners, and for none more than for the noble Duke opposite; but he entirely differed from them when he looked at the conclusion to which they had come. From the situation in which he was placed —from the anxiety which he had always felt for the proper education of the people —from the conviction-lie had ever entertained that his was one of the most important subjects that could be debated within the walls of their Lordships' House, he conceived that he was as capable as any of these Commissioners of forming a just judgment as to what were the feelings of the resident gentlemen of Ireland on this difficult question. The Report proceeded to recommend the system in the strongest terms, and called for a very large expenditure of the public money to support permanently the new system of education, He believed that the country was

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little aware of that fact, and he believed that many of those who now heard him knew nothing about it. What did the Commissioners say? They state, "We come now to consider the number of schools that will be wanting, and we are of opinion that 5,000 National Schools should be established, each to be placed under a competent teacher. It will take about nine years to establish that number, and the expense will necessarily vary from year to year." They then gave a table of the expense that would be incurred in the first nine years, which he would read to their Lordships. The first year would require 47,224 l.; the second, 134,324 l.; the third, 230,900 l.; the fourth, 259,400 l.; the fifth, 290,400 l.; the sixth, 324,900 l.; the seventh, 224,400 l.; the eighth, 216,900 l.; and the ninth, 215,400 l." And then the Commissioners add, that after this period of nine years, the building of school houses would cease to be an annual charge, and that the annual expenditure for maintaining the system would be about 200,000 l. This enormous sum they would be called on to pay for the purpose of upholding a system which he was convinced would be the cause of great mischief and misery in the country. He was not vain enough to suppose that anything which he could say or suggest on the subject, was likely to alter the opinion which Ministers had formed with reference to this question, and to which, doubtless, they conceived it to be their duty to adhere. But knowing, as he did, the opinions of the great mass of the people of this country, of Scotland, and of Ireland, having loaded the Table of the House with petitions against this measure, he could not but feel it to be his imperative duty to take this the earliest opportunity of entering his protest against this system, and against this Report. He certainly should conceive himself to be guilty of a great dereliction of a solemn duty, if he did not openly state his views and feelings on this subject. It was not necessary that he should vindicate himself on account of the course which he had adopted. He was not actuated by any party or personal views or feelings. His great object was to support what he conceived to be the best interests of the country. He had from the beginning opposed this system, and he opposed it still, because he believed that those who brought it forward had entirely miscalculated the benefit which it was likely to produce. He
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always was of opinion, that it never could be adopted as a general system of education in Ireland. After three years of trial — after three years of experience —it had completely failed in its object. It was proved to be totally unsuited to the population of Ireland. It was a system that would enable the priests to keep down and tyrannize over the Roman Catholic population—it was a system that would have the effect of stopping the Scriptural education of the people of Ireland—it was a system that would prevent the circulation of that Holy Book, which, previous to the introduction of this plan of national education had made very considerable progress. In short, it would produce a famine of the Word of God in the land, which was the greatest curse that could be inflicted on a country. He had attentively read the history of his country, and he had found it there stated, that, when Protestant principles were upheld, and properly regarded by those who had the management of public affairs, then this country was respected abroad, and enjoyed peace and tranquillity at home. And he had also read in the same history, that when, on the other hand, Protestant principles were sacrificed by a Protestant Government at the shrine of political expediency, then it was found that this country was looked down upon with contempt by the surrounding nations, and neither peace nor security dwelt within her own bounds. He therefore raised his voice in their Lordships' House against this system, and he would warn noble Lords opposite to consider seriously the course of conduct which they were pursuing, which in his mind was morally and politically erroneous, with respect to Ireland. It would, if persevered in, reduce that country to a worse state than she had ever before been placed in, since it manifestly would in the end have the effect of denying toleration to the Protestant faith. The great point for Ireland was, to extend Scriptural education to the rising generation of Ireland. That species of education had been advancing, perhaps imperceptibly, but without a doubt surely, until this new system was introduced. The Statesman who overlooked this great principle as the proper means of upholding the best interests of the country, was supporting himself in his own melancholy delusion. But he hoped the Protestant people of England and Scotland would take the

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subject into their serious consideration, and would use every means in their power, by addressing their Lordships in numerous petitions, to show that they were not amongst the number of those reasonable men who were spoken of by the Commissioners as having changed their minds on the vital subject of Scriptural education. The questions he had to put were these—whether the noble Marquess would be so kind as to add means for laying on their Lordships' Table those papers moved for last year, respecting the number of children who attend those schools, distinguishing their religious profession; and whether it was the intention of his Majesty's Government to adopt the suggestion contained in the Report, and to grant the sum of money yearly which the Commissioners proposed?
The Marquess of Lansdownehoped that he should be able to satisfy the noble Earl on the two points to which his questions referred. The noble Earl only did him justice when he supposed that he was ready to furnish such authentic information as the noble Lord required, either to satisfy his natural curiosity, as a Member of that House, or upon which to found an argument in support of his opinions. With respect to the first question, he had to remind their Lordships, that towards the close of the last Session, when he called their Lordships' attention to the documents which he laid upon the Table from the Commissioners of Public Instruction in Ireland, he remarked upon the fact, that although the information in the Reports was abundant and accurate, still the particular answer to the first question of the noble Earl was not given. He could not answer that question then, neither could he answer it now. He should say in a few words why it was not in his power, or in that of any other person in any department of the Government, to produce the information required by the noble Earl, In order to satisfy the noble Earl, he had endeavoured to make himself acquainted with the objection which was made against instituting such an inquiry as he wished for, and he found that it was completely impossible to procure the information sought by the noble Earl with any fair degree of accuracy. The Commissioners were appointed to administer a certain system of education —a system of education which included Protestant and Catholic, and the great merit of which
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was, that it provided for each description of scholars, without making any distinction on the score of religion. Now, the Commissioners engaged in that special work, and acting under that particular rule, felt that they were not called on to make that particular return to which the noble Earl had referred. They conceived, that to make such a return would be to invest themselves with functions not only alien to, but inconsistent with, the views which they had been directed to carry into effect. Their functions were, to administer this system of education to all children, to administer it according to a certain rule, which applied equally to Catholics and Protestants; and they felt that if, in compliance with any desire to institute this species of inquisition, to state what children were Protestants and what Catholics, they proceeded to make such a classification, they would be introducing and renewing those very distinctions which they were directed to avoid. There were circumstances under which they might possibly have made an imperfect return, if they had proceeded on the rules originally laid down—one of these rules being, that Protestant and Catholic children should be compelled to attend divine service where they were educated. If that rule had been enforced, it would have enabled the Commissioners to make something like an accurate return. That rule was, however, speedily abandoned. Individuals who held sincere religious and moral opinions objected against using compulsion to make children attend. That very important part of education did not come under the jurisdiction of the Commissioners. There were certain days in the week when the Protestant clergyman had the right, and he wished that they oftener exercised it, of giving religious instruction to those of the children attending the schools who belonged to his congregation, and on other days the Catholic priest had the same liberty with respect to those who professed his faith; but the master, acting under the Commissioners, had no power to make any inquiry upon the subject. It was, therefore, impossible for the Commissioners to make such a return as the noble Earl called for. If the noble Earl was desirous of founding an argument on the proportion of Protestants, as compared with Catholics, who attended those schools, he was at liberty to do so, and it would be admitted on the

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the Ministerial side of the House. They all knew the enormous preponderance of the Roman Catholic over the Protestant population, particularly amongst the lower orders, for whom this system of education was especially intended; and of course the number of Catholics who received education at these schools would be far greater than the number of Protestants. To say, however, that Protestant children derived no benefit at all from those schools was manifestly incorrect. In different parts of the country many Protestant children were educated at those schools; and if the noble Earl would look at the Report, he would find that in the province of Ulster, the most Protestant portion of Ireland, applications for the establishment of new schools had been signed by 260 Protestant clergymen. This showed that the system had been beneficial. The noble Earl's second question had reference to a much more extended scale of education, as he found the suggestion detailed in the Report. A particular instruction had been given to those Commissioners, to report as to the extent to which it was possible to carry this system of education throughout the whole country. A sum was mentioned by them which undoubtedly Parliament would not think of granting without the most mature examination, and the most minute attention to the subject in all its branches. It was to be remembered, however, that the suggestion had not yet been taken into consideration. The proposition had not yet been brought before Parliament, but that the estimate was inserted in the Report because it was always important that such information should be in the possession of Parliament. He was not prepared to state that any intention had been formed by the Government of proposing to Parliament any such scale of expenditure as that laid down in the Report, but he had no hesitation in saying, such was his conviction of the benefit which this system was producing at the present moment, that he trusted from some source or other, funds would be raised, at no distant period, for carrying the plan into the most extensive effect. He sincerely hoped that Parliament would be induced to extend the funds which had been applied to the important object of educating and civilizing the lower classes of the people, and of reconciling by that means the different portions of the population to each other. The noble Earl said,
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he did not know of any benefit arising from this system. Why, the noble Earl would find that at this moment, restricted and narrowed as the operation of the system was, not less than 200,000 children were in the course of receiving practical education under it. That system of education was founded on the suggestion contained in the Report of 1812, subscribed to which he found the names of all the most distinguished Prelates of that day in Ireland. He would read one paragraph, which would show how consistently the Commissioners were carrying the suggestion of those reverend personages into effect. In page 65 of that Report it was set forth, "that selections might be made on which the most important parts of Scripture history should be included, together with all the precepts of morality, and instructive examples by which those precepts were illustrated and enforced, and which would not be subject to the objections that had been made against the use of the whole Scriptures." The Commissioners stated further, "that such a volume of extracts from the sacred writings would in their opinion form the best preparation for that more extended and particular religious instruction which it would be the duty, and he doubted not the inclination also, of the several ministers of religion to give at proper times and in proper places to the children of their respective districts." To this he found signed "William Armagh; Charles Cashel; James Killala; and J. L. Foster. He could not believe that the attempt to carry into effect the principle recommended by such high authorities would be attended with other than beneficial results. In a country without roads, with large bogs and rivers, and where much was to be encountered in endeavouring to procure education, a great improvement had taken place. No person could now travel in Ireland without seeing the great reform it had worked in the moral and religious feelings of the people. The system was placed in an intelligible shape, and provided for in a manner which ensured to that remote and miserable population the blessings of that species of education which all those Learned Prelates, twelve or sixteen years ago, pointed out as that which might be applicable to the whole population of Ireland. This was a blessing which he hoped Parliament would endeavour to impart to all the country; and although

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he was not prepared to go the length of adopting the system of the Commissioners to the extent to which it might be carried, yet he would state to the House and the country that he was prepared to give still further effect to that which he considered was the greatest of all possible blessings. He was sorry he was not able to give the noble Earl opposite more full or authentic information.
The Bishop of Exeter,The Bishop of Exeter, although there was no question before the House, would, with their Lordships' permission, trespass for a short time upon their attention. He had listened to the noble Marquess, as he always did listen to him, with the greatest attention and respect. He felt satisfied that what the noble Marquess had said he said with the utmost candor, and he believed it was the sincere desire of the noble Marquess to endeavour to promote the best interests of the country by supporting the system of National Education in Ireland. He believed too that it was with the utmost sincerity that the noble Marquess expressed the wish that he had it in his power to give the noble Earl the fullest possible information on the subject of his inquiries; he must have this wish, being, as he was, a friend to the system of national education, and therefore he would put it to the noble Marquess whether great doubts were not likely to be raised by so long and so stubborn a silence on a question of such cardinal importance as that asked by the noble Earl? He called it cardinal, because if there was not a due proportion of Protestants educated under the system, that system could not be considered to have been successful. Upon this hinge the whole merits of the question turned, and therefore it was, that the friends of the system of education now at work in Ireland should be most anxious to answer it. The responsibility of returning the required answer rested with tenfold weight upon the Commissioners themselves. But the Commissioners had remained silent upon this point, and why had they done so? because they knew that there was no fit and due proportion between the number of Protestant and Roman Catholic children who partook of the benefits of the national system. If the Commissioners were not actually required to make this inquiry, there was nothing in the instructions given to them which prevented them doing so. On the contrary; as the noble Marquess, with that
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candour which distinguished him, had informed the House, if the original instructions had been acted upon according to the rule laid down by Mr. Stanley in his instructions to the Duke of Leinster, the first Commissioner, the information sought would have been obtained. It seemed the more surprising that the Commissioners should assert —First, that they would not answer this inquiry, when it was recollected that in the papers published last year, being the correspondence between Sir Henry Hardinge and the Board of Education in Ireland, the Commissioners asserted that it had become absolutely necessary to withdraw the national support from the Kildare-place Society, "because the number of Roman Catholics in those Schools was quite disproportioned in their amount to the general population of the county." Now he had taken the pains to refer to a Report of the Commissioners of the Irish Education Inquiry of 1824, with respect to the number of Protestants attending the Kildare-street Society's Schools in the province of Ulster. It appeared from the Report that the number of children attending those schools amounted on the whole to 55,967; namely, about 29,900 Roman Catholics and 26,000 Protestants —in short, in the proportion of fifteen to thirteen. In making this statement, he did not mean to contend that the Roman Catholic population of that province did not exceed the Protestant in a higher ratio than fifteen to thirteen. He knew that it did, and happily they were now enabled to state the exact proportion, for they had a conclusive authority on this point — namely, the Report of the Public Instruction Committee —which showed the proportion of Roman Catholics to Protestants in that province at present to be as 62½ to 37½, or as fifteen to nine. This then was the proportion which the Roman Catholic scholars in the National Schools ought to bear to Protestants, it was as fifteen to nine. If they greatly exceeded that proportion no man could say that the system had worked well, for if the number of Protestants attending the schools had decreased much below 9 to 15, the Commissioners had established a rule against themselves. He had a return which had been sent to him by a right reverend Prelate in Ireland —he had only received it yesterday — it was a return relative to the condition of a rural deanery in his diocese. He should not mention

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the name of the party from whom he had received it, for unhappily it was not in those days safe to give notoriety to the name of any Protestant Clergyman in Ireland, but he should be most happy to give it to any noble Lord who might require it. From the return, it appeared that there were ten National Schools within the deanery referred to. These schools were attended by 1,964 Roman Catholic children, and by not one Protestant child. Within the same ten parishes, constituting the deanery, there were sixteen scriptural schools, scriptural schools! What an antithesis to national schools! "Why, good God!" continued the right reverend Prelate, "is this England? Is this Great Britain, a Protestant kingdom, in which we are to be told that there are scriptural schools, as contradistinguished from national schools? But such, unhappily, is the case." In the sixteen schools to which he had last alluded there were 537 Protestant children; somewhat more than one-fourth of the number of the Roman Catholic children attending the national schools in this district. Of the Roman Catholics attending the Scriptural schools in the deanery he rejoiced to say that they were no fewer than 145 in number. He did not pretend to say that this was not rather a rare example. He had had other returns made, from which he inferred that the result would be of the same character, though perhaps not quite to the same extent. In the face of such statements as these, would the Irish Commissioners skulk behind the plea which had that night been set up for them and refuse to answer the question of the noble Earl? He knew that it must be extremely painful to the noble Duke,(the Duke of Leinster) to be prevented by any cause from giving an answer to an inquiry which the Commissioners would be proud to answer, if it admitted of an answer which was favourable to their system. If the House were to present an Address to his Majesty, praying that his Majesty would desire these Commissioners to make the inquiry on this point, then there could be no doubt that the Commissioners would no longer object to give the answers. What had the noble Duke's colleagues said on this subject? His Grace the Archbishop of Dublin in answer to a memorial presented to him by the Dean and Chapter of his Cathedral made use of expressions to the following effect: — "I am not sanguine as to the success of this
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measure, yet I am anxious that, at all events, its failure should not be imputed to us; and I think we ought, therefore, to give it a fair trial. [My lords, it has already had a trial of four years.] I mean by merely offering no impediment to the adoption of the plan in those places where Roman Catholics and Protestants may agree in thinking that there are no better means of accomplishing the object." The right hon. Gentleman, then Secretary for Ireland, now a noble Lord in the other House (Lord Stanley) said, that one main object must be, to unite in one system children of different creeds. That certainly was the object, and whether it had succeeded was the question to be tried before they could pronounce whether the system itself had been successful or not. The other Commissioner, Dr. Sadler, had expressed similar sentiments in a letter, published at the end of last year, and addressed to a Dr. Thorpe, who had himself published one, intitled, "National Schools in Ireland." He spoke of the way in which the Kildare-street Society had failed, and, contrasting its failure with the success of the new system, he said, that the great majority of children in the schools of the Kildare-street Society were Protestants, and that the Society had failed as regarded the Catholics. The Board of Education was, therefore, instituted to remedy this failure, "and was in rapid progress," said the writer, "of succeeding most completely." Now he challenged their Commissioners to prove that success, of which they made such triumphant boast. He would ask the noble Marquess to let the question at issue rest entirely on the correctness of the facts contained in the statements of the Commissioners. He would ask him to give up his case if he found those facts incorrect. Could any proposition be fairer? For his part he (the Bishop of Exeter) was ready, if the noble Marquess would rest his case on the accuracy of the statements from which the Commissioners drew their conclusions, there to leave the matter. Nay, he would even go one step further. He would pledge himself to admit that he was totally and entirely wrong if those facts were found to be true to the degree of one-half of what they professed. He would pledge himself to show that those affirmed facts were anything but facts. Of course he did not impute intentional fiction to those who had stated them. He would put it to the

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noble Lord whether, in the face of this House, and of the country, (for some how or other, what passed in this House got out to the country) and of the reasonable men of whom we had heard so much, he would refuse to accept his proposition? Might he venture to hope for an answer? [The right reverend Prelate paused for a moment, and was answered by one or two cries of "Go on."] He was sorry to find that he had no answer. He would then make one or two further remarks, and first, he begged, in denial of the noble Marquess's position, that all travellers in Ireland had come to one and the same conclusion in favor of the new system, to refer him to the testimony of Mr. Inglis, whose work had been generally held entitled to considerable attention. That writer, liberal as he was, had said distinctly that nothing more unfair could have been thought of than this system of education as it was administered in Ireland. On another point, the perpetuity of this system, the noble Marquess had expressed his hope that funds would be provided from a national source, for their constant support in future.
The Marquess of Lansdowneobserved, that he had not spoken of national funds, or funds from a national source, for that purpose.
The Bishop of Exeterwas sorry that the noble Marquess had not, because to him it seemed but right that a national system should be supported from national funds. The noble Marquess had not said national funds, but that "some means would be found." Now this expression, when he considered the noble Marquess's disclaimer of the phrase "national funds," filled him with alarm. The expression would not, however, have struck him had it not been for the language used at a public meeting at Bristol, by one of the noble Marquess's colleagues, he meant the noble Lord the Secretary for the Home Department, who had suggested that the necessary mode of Subduing the licentiousness, the tremendous state of morals, the thoroughly disorganized Condition of a part of the population in Ireland, their aptitude to commit murder, and every other crime, was, by introducing education among them. The funds for that purpose it was also suggested were to be derived from the supposed surplus to be found in the property of the Church, and guaranteed at present by no less than the oath of his Majesty to the Protestant Clergy
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of Ireland. If it were the intention, however, of his Majesty's Govern merit to persevere in the system, he did hope that, for decency's sake, means would be taken to procure a full and adequate inquiry; and that before a vast annual charge was thrown upon any fund, even upon the National Fund, it would be made to appear that the allegations in the Report upon which the recommendation of the Commissioners were founded, were correct and true. He hoped, too, that measures would be taken to inquire into the working of the system; and no better mode could be adopted than that of having a Committee of their Lordships, to sift evidence upon oath; for he would not conceal from them his firm conviction that it would be the easiest thing possible to show to that House, and to the country, that this national system of education had been made the, means, in many instances, of favouring the most shameful political agitation. Another evil of the present system was, that it frequently compelled Protestant children to witness the ceremonials of a religion which they were bound to regard as superstitious and idolatrous. That both these evils would be proved to a Committee he did not for a moment doubt, and he again repeated that he hoped the House would appoint a Committee before it adopted any measures on the subject. He knew an instance of one school of 512 scholars, the teachers of which were four monks. After two o'clock the priests taught the scholars the Roman Catholic Catechism. In the school-house a political meeting was held to arrange about the tribute, and here also a dinner was given to Mr. O'Connell. A bust of the same Gentleman was placed in a conspicuous part of the schoolroom. He knew of another school which was held within the inclosure of a convent. It was attended by 127 girls, and the teachers were a Roman Catholic mistress and six nuns. That no Protestant children attended such a school would not be a matter of much surprise to their Lordships. He should now sit down, relying upon the hope that his Majesty's Government would, in some way or other, take means for prosecuting this most important inquiry, and laying the information sought for by the noble Lord, before their Lordships.
The Duke of Norfolkwas understood to say that he rose in consequence of something which had fallen from the right rev.

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Prelate in the course of his speech, to inquire of the right rev. Prelate whether he intended to intimate that the moral instruction given by the Roman Catholic instructors was not equally in accordance with the doctrines of Scripture as those of the Protestant teachers?
The Bishop of Exetersaid, that the noble Duke had asked him a question in a manner which demanded of him a most respectful and candid reply. What he had intended to say, in the observations to which the noble Duke appeared to refer, was, that in Protestant schools the use of the Scriptures was held to be an essential medium of moral instruction, whilst in Catholic schools the contrary was the case. The children in Protestant schools were taught to look into the Scriptures for all those doctrines and moral admonitions by which their duty to God and man was regulated; whereas, on the other hand, the noble Duke would, he felt assured, admit the correctness of his assertion; it was held by the highest Roman Catholic authorities, that to teach Christian duty and morals by the use of the Scriptures was unadvisable and mischievous.—-[The Duke of Norfolk had never heard any authorities of the kind.] — He would refer the noble Duke to the authority of Dr. Doyle, and also to that of Dr. Murray, who, on being asked—he forgot at the moment whether it was by a Committee in Parliament in 1825, or by the Commission in 1824 —but who, on being asked the question, whether he did not consider our Lord's sermon on the Mount the best compendium of Christian morality existing, and whether he (Dr. Murray) thought it had better be read as it stood in the Gospel, or inculcated by means of books of religious instruction, as catechisms and such like, replied, that he had not been able to bring up his mind to believe that those doctrines could be learned better in the Scriptures than elsewhere, and, therefore, declined answering.
The Earl of Winchilseawas extremely obliged to his noble Friend for having made the present Motion. He thought that the present system of education in Ireland would lead to the destruction of the empire. He did not mean to say, that the Ministers had acted wilfully in adopting this system. He had warned them against it; but the result was what he had all along expected, namely, that the Ministers had placed themselves in the hands
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of a party whose object was to sever or to destroy the empire.
Lord Plunkettdid not intend to prolong this very irregular discussion. It was not his intention either to follow the right rev. Prelate who had addressed the House at such great length upon a mere question asked by a noble Lord, and when there was no Motion pending before the House. There were one or two points, however, in the right rev. Prelate's address, which he could not pass over unnoticed. The right rev. Prelate regretted that the Commissioners had not made any inquiries as to the relative numbers of Catholic and Protestant children who attended the schools under the new system: inquiries which they had not been required to make, and in which, if they had made, they would, in his opinion, have departed materially from what was their duty. The object of the Commission was to provide a common means of education for the population of Ireland, without any religious distinction whatever. Now if any inquiry as to the religion of the children in the schools was permitted, it would at once foment jealousies and party feelings. If, therefore, a formal motion were to be brought forward to effect such inquiries, it would, if acted upon, produce nothing else than discord, and all the very mischiefs which the system was intended to avoid. Now with respect to the relative numbers of the Protestant and Catholic children in the schools, it was not at all surprising that the latter preponderated in a considerable proportion, when it was recollected that the greater part of the Protestant children belonged to parents who were better able than their Catholic neighbours to provide education elsewhere for their families. He must say, he could not repress his surprise at hearing the right rev. Prelate speaking of the mischiefs of agitation. He did not know what mischievous agitation the right rev. Prelate might refer to; but this he did know, that a great deal of mischievous agitation had been used throughout Ireland, to prevent the Protestants from sending their children to the schools which were now provided for them, and that the object of the Commission had been grossly misrepresented and libelled, for the purpose of fomenting this agitation. He did not state this on the authority of any anonymous correspondent. The fact was notorious—it had over and over again been stated at

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public meetings, got up on purpose to misrepresent to the public this system. The right rev. Prelate had said that he had been struck with a great degree of horror on reading the distinction which had been made in the communications he had received, between national and scriptural education. He concurred with the right rev. Prelate that this was a most improper distinction, a distinction which struck him (Lord Plunkett) with disgust and abhorrence. But he would ask, who were they who had made this distinction? Were they the Commissioners of Education? No such distinction had been drawn, or attempted to be drawn, by them. Then who had set up this distinction? Was it the right rev. Prelate himself, or the anonymous correspondent from whom he drew all his information, who first devised the distinction between a national and a scriptural system in a Christian country? He thought, if he recollected rightly, that it was when the right rev. Prelate was reading the letter from his anonymous correspondent that these nicknames of distinction were first used. If he was mistaken he should be very glad to be set right. He would ask the right rev. Prelate for an answer on the subject, though he certainly should not take his cases upon the right rev. Prelate's answer.
The Bishop of Exeterexplained that the distinctive terms of national and scriptural education bad certainty been used by the right Reverend correspondent to whose letter he had referred, but he was quite certain that if the noble Lord himself had not heard the terms, every other noble Lord who was connected with Ireland, knew very well that the distinction was quite in common use, and perfectly well understood there. He had received letters from several other Bishops, containing the same terms of distinction.
Lord Plunkettcould assure the House that he had never before heard the distinction of national and scriptural schools. He was sorry to hear that several other Bishops had also made the distinction, for he was bound to say that he thought it a most unfair one, and certainly it had never been used by any person connected with the Board. His noble Friend had stated a certain number of applications—he believed the number stated was 244—and he had heard of 246 applications. His noble friend having made that statement, the right rev. Prelate asked would his
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noble Friend give up the entire question if he should not be correct in that statement, although his noble Friend had not stated that as the only ground upon which he rested. But the right rev. Prelate's zeal far surpassed his logic when he made such a proposition. His noble Friend would desire to be set right if he were wrong; but why his noble Friend should give up the question, if not correct in that fact, and it being not used as a solitary argument on the subject, was, he repeated, a proposition that he could not understand. Now he wished, he was most anxious, to hear from the right rev. Prelate how many applications were made. If the noble Marquess had, according to the proposition of the right rev. Prelate, stated not the entire number, but half the number, then he would be declared to be quite wrong; but if the noble Marquess did state half the number of applications, would the right rev. Prelate admit that he was half wrong?— [Bishop of Exeter! Yes] The right rev. Prelate said "Yes." He could not ascertain whether that was an affirmative or a negative.—[Bishop of Exeter: Yes; it is an answer to a question.]— He could not understand the monosyllable unless accompanied by some explanation. He now wished to call the attention of the right rev. Prelate, and of the noble Lord who had proposed this question, to another point. The noble Lord who had proposed the question upon which their Lordships were then debating, had originally, and he believed with the utmost sincerity and from a perfect conviction of the truth of his argument, declaimed and reasoned with very great energy and ability against the book used by the schools under the present system as a mutilation of the scriptures. That, their Lordships well knew, was a very popular subject, and one that had been constantly urged at public meetings in Ireland. The right rev. Prelate, however, who spoke subsequently to the noble Earl, had very early in the course of his address to the House entirely abandoned the position laid down by the noble Earl. The right rev. Prelate had observed that he was not prepared to say, that the Scripture was absolutely excluded from the schools; that extracts from the Scriptures were not admitted; nor could be say, that he considered those extracts in the light of a mutilation of that book from which they were extracted. The right rev. Prelate bad abandoned

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the position taken by the noble Earl as completely untenable, knowing it to be a position which had been refuted over and over again, both in and out of that House, But the objection of the rev. Prelate was this,—it was utterly impossible, said he, from the constitution of the Board of Commissioners that they could ever agree upon the subject of any extracts as appropriate and suitable for the schools under the present system. That objection was founded upon principles totally different from those upon which the noble Earl proceeded; and depended upon the discordant opinions of the Board of Commissioners, which, according to the expressed opinion of the right rev. Pielate, would render it impossible that any extracts could be agreed upon by them. The right rev. Prelate had prophesied that a Board constituted of persons of such different creeds never could discover materials upon which they could quite agree. Never was there, in ancient or modern times, a prophet so falsified by the event as the right rev. Prelate. Those persons had agreed; and the Commissioners were the most rev. Prelate the Protestant Archbishop of Dublin, the most rev. Prelate the Catholic Archbishop of Dublin, a member of the Established Church, and a Fellow of Trinity College, the Rev. Dr. Sadleir, a Dissenting minister, the rev. Mr. Carlisle, and a most respectable gentleman, a lay member of the Catholic community. Those members, whom it was supposed would never have amalgamated, had accorded together, and made extracts from the Scriptures, which were now published, and he would challenge the right rev. Prelate, or any noble Lord, to take up that book of extracts, and then lay his hand upon his heart, and declare that there was anything but sound morality and strict scriptural doctrine contained in it. He had spoken to members of different persuasions respecting those extracts; and he had never yet heard anyone who did not speak in terms of praise of the propriety of those extracts. The noble Duke, his noble Friend, a distinguished member of the Roman Catholic Church, and whose moral conduct and Christian feelings would reflect honour upon the members of any church, had stated what were the feelings of his Church respecting the reading of the Scriptures; but then the right rev. Prelate knew better than the noble Duke what the opinions of that noble Duke's Church on the subject
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were,—[The Bishop of Exeter: No.]— He did not say that the right rev. Prelate had asserted so much; but the conclusion he drew from the speech of the right rev. Prelate was, that he did know better than the noble Duke what were the opinions of Roman Catholics upon this point; but really he was still more disposed to subscribe to the declaration of the noble Duke as to the sentiment of his community, than to yield to the high authority of the right rev. Prelate upon the same point. He was glad to know on what authority the position was established, that the Scriptures had been prohibited in the national schools. He had never heard any reasonable person (he would repeat it, "reasonable person," although the terra had been cavalled at that evening), who maintained that the Scriptures should be used as a school-book. Proper extracts had been made for the general use of the schools, and during school hours all else was certainly excluded; but there was no restriction which extended beyond those hours. Every scholar was perfectly at liberty out of school to refer, if he pleased, to the Bible itself. It was objected to the system followed in the national schools, that it was an anti-scriptural system. He would be glad if the right rev. Prelate would lay his finger upon the printed extracts to show any part of them which was unscriptural, or any part of them which misrepresented the Scriptures. The rev. Prelate said there was no reference. —[The Bishop of Exeter: I never said so.]—He begged the right rev. Prelate's pardon. It was a noble Lord on the other side of the House that had made the observation. Such was not, however, the case. The noble Lord would find that the references were given. For his own part he could wish that every noble Lord who heard him had the principles inculcated in that book deeply fixed in their hearts. He did not mean to say that they were devoid of a due reverence for the Scriptures, but they would not be the worse if they did what he slated; and if they bad at heart the principles and sentiments contained in that book, and in this he included the right reverend Prelate, they would be deeply imbued with Christian charity and mutual love; and without which the name of Christianity was an empty pretence.
Lord Cloncurryobserved, that there was a period in the history of Ireland,

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when it was distinguished for its learning, and when persons came from other countries to acquire that knowledge which the Irish were then able to impart to them. At the time of the Reformation, the funds applicable to education were taken away from the people of Ireland. By Jaw they were prohibited from acquiring education, and the consequence was, that the people became ignorant and servile; they were beaten down and oppressed in such a manner as persons uneducated are ever found to be. The funds intended for the education of the Roman Catholics were made applicable to other purposes; but vast funds were given to educate persons in hostility to their creed. About sixty years ago sums were granted for the maintenance of the Protestant Charter Schools. These funds were intended to rear up children in hostility to the religion of their parents. Many knew that within the last fourteen years those schools had been suppressed; they knew that they had been stigmatised with vices the most atrocious, and that the masters of several of them had been put upon trial for the pollution of their scholars. The whole of that system was founded upon bigotry and uncharitableness. On the total failure of the charter schools, a system was proposed to be established, to be carried on, as it was said, without any religious distinction. The persons who proposed this applied to several persons, and amongst Others he subscribed, under the idea that education would be given to the people without any religious distinction. A short time after, it was declared to be a sine qua non that the Bible should be read as a school book. If their Lordships would look they would find that the Bible then in general use, was one that issued from the press of the King's printer; and in the introduction or dedication there was language reprobatory of the Ministers of the Catholic religion. It was quite impossible that the Catholic clergy could allow this to be distributed amongst the children, or used by their flocks, and for this reason also, that they did not sanction the use of the Bible, without note or comment, by the vulgar. They, therefore, set their faces against the Kildare-place Society. As soon as it was found that the Catholics objected to that society, persons joined it who had never before interested themselves in the education of the people at large. That society was then joined by all those persons who,
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though they did not frequent Protestant churches, could not forgive the portion of the community who continued to go to mass. As to the question where the funds were to come from to continue the national system of education in Ireland, he thought they might very well come from those sources to which the funds originally destined for that purpose had been diverted. They were taken from the Catholics of Ireland—not by the Reformers of England, not by Henry 8th, whose power was not felt so much in Ireland as it had been in England, but which had been taken by Cromwell's soldiers. A great part of that property was now lying waste in Ireland, and it was easy to make it applicable. That property would not only be sufficient for this purpose, but from inquiry it would be found to make the Protestant Church richer, and after educating the people, if their Lordships thought proper, they might apply it for the benefit of the clergy and the people. The Catholic population of Ireland was six millions; and for the education of the Catholic clergy at present a sum less than 10,000 l. a-year was granted. Was it to be supposed that respectable persons would devote themselves to education in college, which must afford them such a paltry support as that sum. could give them? It was astonishing, under such circumstances, to find men of such learning, such good Christians, and such well-educated pastors amongst the Catholic clergy of Ireland; and it being considered too, that all the property intended for education had been taken from them, he would not say whether justly or otherwise. No persecution, it was confessed, had diminished the number of Catholics. Now then that the population of Ireland was Catholic, it was their duty to state, that not only should the Catholics be educated in their own tenets, but their clergy should also be educated. They knew that Trinity College, Dublin, possessed a revenue of 140,000 l. a-year; but from the influence of party spirit there, no man sent his child to that college who was a Roman Catholic. If that University were thrown open to persons of all religions fairly, and justice thus done to Roman Catholics, the country would be safer, the people happier, and their Lordships would not be tormented, as they now annually were, with motions, which, however well intended by those who made them, could only have a

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bad effect, in as much as they tended to diminish the respect for that House, to which the people must naturally look for aid.
Viscount Melbournesaid, he was most un-willing to take up the time of their Lordships by intruding any further, observations on the matter then under discussion; and still less was he disposed to advance any remark upon the irregularity of the occasion, or on the other topics which had been referred to. He would say, that the Commissioners acted rightly in not making the returns required. Unless their Lordships meant to disturb the peace of the system which now prevailed—unless they wished to introduce discord where tranquillity now reigned — unless they meant wantonly, and of their own mind and will, to introduce that division in these schools which unfortunately prevailed amongst too many classes, they would not encourage the noble Earl opposite to persevere in the course he was pursuing. Undoubtedly the House would not accede to any motion of such a nature as that hinted at, if they wished to tranquillise Ireland, An observation had been made by the right reverend Prelate which it was important to notice—he stated, that the proportion between Catholics and Protestants ought to be given; that it should be laid before that House, because upon that hinged the system; and it would be a test of its success. If there were not a large proportion of one sect, then the system had failed, and if there were a large proportion, as compared with the population, then it bad succeeded. He denied the proposition—he did not admit the inference. The great object with which the measure was introduced was, to give as general a system of education to the great proportion of the population of Ireland as they could find it possible to do. It was in the highest degree desirable that the Roman Catholics and Protestants should be educated together. With that view was devised and framed the present system. The great object was to bring them together. With that view they offered the whole of the population of Ireland a joint system—they respected the faith of both, they respected the religious education of all. But, if through fanatical enthusiasm, if through the delusion of prejudices, one party abstained from taking advantage of what was offered, could they, on that account, declare that the system
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should be rejected? He, for one, would say that they were not bound to withhold it from the other. Because the system was rejected by the obstinacy of Protestants, he would not be the party to refuse it to the Roman Catholic population, who were willing to accept it.
The Earl of Rodencould not but express his surprise that his Majesty's Ministers should suddenly have become so delicate upon the subject of exciting religious divisions between the Roman Catholics and Protestants of Ireland, when they were the very individuals who but a short time ago sent a Commission into Ireland for the purpose of drawing the very greatest possible distinction between the two parties in that country, and widening, as far as possible, the breach between them by sending forth to the world statements of the numerical proportion and the respective numbers of each. He was moreover particularly surprised that on such an occasion as that, their delicacy should have been exhibited; because it appeared as if the exhibition of delicacy was made merely to suit their own purposes, and only when that purpose was to keep back information from the public. He confessed that he was astonished to hear the noble Lord opposite get, up and say, that he had never heard of any distinction as between the national and scriptural schools. He was sure that the noble Lord and every one acquainted with what was going on in Ireland had heard and knew of the very broad distinction between the two, and it was this—that the one was founded upon the principle of the free use of the Scriptures, whilst the other objected to their introduction. The noble Lord, if he would forgive him, had made rather a Jesuitical observation. In answer to the charge that the Scriptures were excluded from the schools under the present system, he had said that they were allowed to be used -after school hours. No individual, however, looking fairly at the subject, could deny that the Scriptures, as a whole, were excluded. The noble Lord at the head of his Majesty's Government had spoken of the fanaticism of the Protestants in refusing the system of education offered by the Government. He was not surprised at those observations, but he must give him leave to say, that such language towards individuals acting from conscientious motives, and faithful in the discharge of their duties towards their King and their

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God, did not become the quarter from which it proceeded. The Protestants of Ireland were opposed to the present system wholly on principle; and though they might be thus maligned by its advocates, he trusted that they would persevere in the course which they had adopted, and show by their conduct that the grounds upon which they objected, to it were founded entirely on principle. In answer to the question that had been put to him in the course of the debate, he was not prepared to say whether he should submit any Motion to the House. His present opinion, perhaps, was, that such a line of conduct might be useless; but he was convinced that when the discussion which had that night taken place was placed before the country, every one would clearly see that the only reason for refusing the information required was, because Ministers were afraid of publishing that which would appear when the returns upon which the debate had arisen, were laid upon the Table. He begged to assure their Lordships that nothing but a strong sense of public duty could have induced him then to bring the subject under their consideration.
Subject dropped.