ESTABLISHED CHURCH. (Hansard, 5 August 1836)

The Duke of Cumberland
said, he hoped the most reverend Prelate would excuse him for saying, that he could not agree with him as to the effect of this measure. In his opinion, it would prove most prejudicial to the Church. He considered it a dangerous measure, and he could not give his consent to its passing.

The Bishop of Hereford
trusted, with the illustrious Duke, that the most rev. Prelate would not consider it a mark of disrespect on his part, if he differed from him in the conclusion he had come to on this Bill. The clause added this night he entirely agreed with; but as respected the Bill itself, now that it had received all the alterations proposed in the Committee, and on other occasions during its progress, he still viewed it with misgiving and fear. The most rev. Prelate had stated, that the Bill was received, he had reason to believe, with unanimity by this House, and also by the clergy. He did not mean to put his information in competition with that of the most rev. Prelate, but the conclusions to which he had come, from the information that had reached him, were very different. They with whom he had had the means communicating personally, or by letter, or whose opinions he had heard from others, entertained but one sentiment, and that was a feeling of distrust and dismay. They saw that arrangements were made, under which the property of the Church was to be disturbed, and how it was to be resettled, they had yet to learn. There was no legislation in this Bill for the future settlement; there was to be a Committee for the regulation 922 of the property of the Church, and they were to be bound down to certain points, it was true, but these points were various, and the powers given to the Commissioners were most extraordinary. It was not for him to detain the House at this stage of the Bill. He must, however, relieve himself from being supposed to participate in the measure, by saying, with the illustrious Duke, "Not content."

The Archbishop of Canterbury
was surprised at what had just fallen from the right rev. Prelate, because he did not think he was one of those who, in the first instance, disapproved of the Commission, the objects of which were a better distribution of ecclesiastical property, and the prevention of the holding of commendams. This Bill resulted from a conviction of the necessity of equalizing the episcopal duties, of providing for a redistribution of ecclesiastical property, and also of laying some taxes on the richer bishoprics, in order to make the poorer sees equal to the maintenance of the bishops belonging to them. Of what the right rev. Prelate did disapprove, he could not say. Was it of the redistribution of the property? Was it of the proposal to diminish the extent of the archbishopric of York, which was at present sufficient for the full employment of three bishops? Was it of the recommendation, that the territories of the bishopric of Lincoln, which at present extended from the Humber to the Thames, should be circumscribed, and the scattered parts attached to the neighbouring sees? Did the right rev. Prelate desire that the bishopric of Lincoln should still extend from the Humber to the Thames? The revenues of some of the sees had, of late years, considerably increased. The revenues of the Archbishop of Canterbury were much more now than they were thirty years ago, and very much more than they were sixty years ago. The revenues of the Bishop of London, in consequence of the buildings, had much increased also. There was an increase also in the case of the bishopric of Durham, and the bishopric of Ely, though not in an equal degree. He did not see that the whole of the property of the Church was likely to suffer very materially by a tax being laid, under these circumstances, on the Archbishop of Canterbury, and the Bishops of London and Durham, for the purpose of making up the incomes of some of the poorer bishoprics. Each individual must speak according to his 923 means of observation, but, as far as he could judge, the clergy were generally favourable to this measure.

The Bishop of Lincoln
supported the Bill. He thought the apprehensions of his right rev. Friend quite unfounded.

§ The Duke of Wellington
begged to declare his approbation of this Bill. There were, unquestionably, anomalies in the Church, and, in his opinion, the Church Establishment could hardly stand the discussion of some of those anomalies, particularly the existence of the commendams. It was proposed to take what was necessary for the existence of some of the bishoprics from the revenues of others, who were enjoying incomes larger than was necessary for them, even in the high stations they occupied in this country. He had heard a noble Marquess, not now in his place, complain of the application of certain revenues of the see of Durham for that purpose. He believed that it had been the practice for a number of years past, partly to provide for certain members of the episcopal bench out of the revenues of the see of Durham. Those revenues, at least those of the deanery and other revenues of the diocese, were hereafter to be applied to other purposes; and out of the revenues of the see itself, the means had been provided for the support of certain other bishops. That he considered to be a good arrangement, and it was most fortunate that it had been in the power of the Commissioners to make it. Whatever measures in reference to this subject might hereafter come under the consideration of the House, he must entreat the right rev. Prelates, and his noble Friends, not to look at this question too much in detail, but to look at it as a whole, and to act upon it upon principle. Their Lordships must see before them the necessity of making an alteration in that venerable establishment, the Church, for the purpose of preserving the whole; and he would say, do not criticise this measure too much, unless they intended to go with the Commissioners, and see what they would have done themselves had they been in their situation. He placed his full confidence in those who were at the head of the Commission, to whom his Majesty's Government were disposed to listen on this subject. He would look into their reports, and at the measures which they would bring forward, with a view to carry into effect the great principles which had been proposed. He trusted their Lordships would do the same.