§ The Duke of Richmondcould not lay on the table the Report of the Brighton Railway Committee without calling the attention of their Lordships to what he conceived to be the extraordinary conduct of that Committee. He had not the most remote intention of attacking personally any Member of the Committee. He was perfectly convinced, from a knowledge of their character, that they never would think of doing anything which they did not believe to be right. But, in justice to those who were more particularly concerned, and in order that the confidence of the country in the proceedings of Committees of that House, might be retained, he felt it necessary to make a few observations on what had occurred. A Railroad Bill, founded on Stephenson's line, had been laid on the table of the House of Commons, and was referred to a Committee of that House. At the time that the parties became shareholders they did not know anything of those regulations which Parliament had afterwards agreed to; neither did they know that there would be three or four lines competing against them. Well, after fifty days' examination before a Committee of the House of Commons, the Bill came up to their Lordships' House. It was eighteen days before a Committee of their Lordships—a Committee that sat for a greater number of hours than any other which he had ever attended, for they met at ten o'clock in the morning, and remained sitting until five o'clock, when the House assembled; but after all this investigation, after all this examination and cross-examination of witnesses, after the fullest 878 inquiry had been entered into, instead of stating the reasons which induced the Committee to come to a particular result, they had chosen to shirk the question, and, on the second resolution, an amendment was moved and carried—"That it was not expedient to proceed further with the Bill this Session." Those who thought Rennie's line preferable, those who conceived Cundy's line to be practicable, and those who were favourable to the Horsted line, voted together on this question, and thus threw out the Bill. This, he conceived, was a very great hardship on the speculators. It was said, that speculators in such a case had no right to complain; but he maintained that they had. If there were not private individuals in this country ready to undertake works of great magnitude, and of immense importance to the country at large, they would be driven, when such works were required, as was the case in other countries, to apply to the Government, and the necessary funds must be supplied from the public purse. He conceived, that the Committee ought to have stated what they conceived to be the best line of road; and, in saying this, he spoke not for the particular company, but for the community at large. Was it right, when individuals came forward and hazarded 100,000l., that a Committee of the House of Lords should, after eighteen days' inquiry, turn round and say—"We cannot, or do not choose to, make up our minds on the subject?" Was not such a course calculated to keep in suspense the whole body of landholders between this and Brighton? Were they not, by taking such a step, opening a wide field for the ingenuity of every little pettifogging attorney between this city and Brighton, who, in the utter ignorance which prevailed on the subject, in the absence of any decision, might assert that he knew the predilection which the House of Lords felt for the advantages attached to his particular plan or scheme? The dupes of such people would lose their money, they would be deluded and ruined, because the House of Lords had not done their duty. In his opinion, the Committee were bound to return an answer to every one of those resolutions relative to railways to which the House had formerly agreed. If they had said that Stephenson's was not the best line—if they had resolved that other surveys which had been made presented greater advantages, that would have been intelligible. But such a course was not 879 deemed advisable. The object of noble Lords was to concentrate their forces. Therefore they made no mention of any of the other lines, which might have occasioned a difference of opinion. No, they were desirous of concentrating opinion to one point, and to effect that object no notice was taken of the other lines. He had deemed it right to say thus much, without making a personal attack on any individual. He would say nothing of those noble Lords who had not come down regularly, neither would he advert to the canvass of Peers which had taken place; this, however, he would say, that if, by any act of theirs, they weakened the confidence of the country in the proceedings of Committees of that House, they would do more to shake the authority of that branch of the Legislature than their worst enemies out of doors could effect. Hitherto the people had looked to Committees of that House as far superior to Committees of the House of Commons, and they ought carefully to abstain from doing anything that was calculated to create a different impression. The noble Duke then moved, "that this Report be now received."
His Royal Highness the Duke of Cumberlanddeclared, that no man in that House felt more strongly than he did, that Committees of the House of Lords should be perfectly pure. And he would further declare, that he had never known a Committee more anxious to examine evidence, and thoroughly to consider the question submitted to them, than the Committee which the noble Duke had thought it right to bring under the notice of the House. He believed, that no two Peers on that Committee could make up their minds as to which of the four lines of road should be preferred. Petitions had been presented to their Lordships and referred to the Committee, not only from Brighton, but from London, stating not merely general, but specific grounds of objection to Stephenson's line. Under the circumstances he would not commit himself either to Stephenson's line, to Rennie's line, or to Cundy's line. Finding petitions against them all, the Committee could not decide, and therefore they recommended in the Report, that the further consideration of the subject should he postponed, in the hope that, before the next Session of Parliament, out of these four lines the best might be selected. So far from any canvassing going forward, he knew of none. 880 No such thing had come to his knowledge He found it necessary to make these few observations in defence of the character of the Committee.
§ The Earl of Abingdon, having been one of this Committee, would state briefly what was the impression made on his mind by the evidence. He was in very great doubt throughout as to which of the lines was the most preferable. But his mind was made up as to the course he ought to pursue when the noble Duke, after counsel had withdrawn, observed, that he was perfectly satisfied that horse races were far less gambling speculations than those in railroads.
Lord Monsonsaid, that the Committee had not come to a decision until after the subject had been thoroughly examined and discussed.
§ Lord Wharncliffewas sure, that the present mode of legislation with respect to railroads would never give satisfaction, and ought to be altered. In a recent case, where a Committee had resolved that the preamble of a Railway Bill (the Manchester and Cheshire) had not been proved, without stating any reason for coining to such a conclusion, he wished to have the Bill recommitted, but the House negatived his motion. In that case he conceived, that the parties had just ground of complaint.
The Marquess of Clanricardewas perfectly convinced, in his own mind, that the course taken by the Committee was the best that could be adopted; and, to his own knowledge, it had given a very considerable degree of satisfaction out of doors. He was not of opinion that Stephen-son's line was the best, but it certainly was brought forward in the best state. If the matter were to be decided merely on that view of the case, perhaps he might have said that it was better than the other lines. But that was not the point on which the question rested; and he was confident, that if that line were submitted to, a Government Commission, such as his noble Friend (Lansdowne) had proposed for Ireland, the Commissioners would not approve of it as the best line.
§ Lord Wharncliffesaid, the resolution of the Committee declared that it was inexpedient to proceed further with the Bill this Session." Now, that was not what they were called on to decide. It was their duty to have stated whether 881 the preamble of the Bill was or was not proved, and to give reasons for their decision. Their Lordships could not pass the matter over. They must send the Bill back to the Committee, to report as to whether the preamble of the Bill was proved or not.
§ The Duke of Richmondwas compelled to notice the extraordinary statement made by the noble Earl (Abingdon) with reference to what he (the Duke of Richmond) had said in the Committee. That statement was the more extraordinary, as it was made within two days of the time when he had offered the remark to which the noble Earl alluded. The noble Earl was bound in justice, if he asserted that his opinion was changed as to the line of road, in consequence of words said to have been spoken by him (the Duke of Richmond)—the noble Earl was bound, when he completely and perfectly denied that he used such words as the noble Earl had stated, if the Bill should go back to the Committee, to vote for it, and this—that he had not, nor ever had, any shares in that railroad, or in any other railroad whatever,—that he had never had anything to do with any joint-stock companies, any that if he were inclined to embark in and speculation, he should prefer the turf. He felt that Stephenson's line had been very hardly treated, for there never had been any railroad which had so great a proportion of assents on the line. He thought it therefore unfairly, or at any rate harshly dealt with. He did not argue this question on the behalf of any company, but he thought that the House of Lords ought to take care to put a stop to the unwarrantable liberties which the Committee had taken. The noble Baron (Wharncliffe) said, that he had a motion similar to that which he (the Duke of Richmond) was about to make, but was unsuccessful. He must, however, remind the noble Baron that the two cases were not the same. In the noble Baron's case the Committee had only heard the parties who were in favour of the Bill, and had decided that the preamble had not been made out. But here the case was very different; all parties had been examined, and he really believed, that if any one member of the Committee who voted for the Report, were asked, "Where do you find fault with Stephenson's line?" he would be unable to give an answer. Here they had let in the competing lines, and yet 882 the Committee had not reported, as by the sixth resolution of their Lordships relating to railways they were bound to do, in what respect the rival lines were inferior and superior to each other. Had they done so, and obeyed the orders of the House, he believed there would have been some disagreement among them, but by taking the course that had been adopted the opposition was concentrated. He thought this case deserving of their Lordship's consideration. After 100,000l. had been spent by the parties, 30,000l. or 40,000l. of which had been spent in supporting Stephenson's line the Committee ought to have given a decided opinion; and although the money spent upon Stephenson's line might not give him any claim to the success of his Bill, it at least gave him a claim to have the opinion of the Committee on the merits of this line. They were told, that this act of the Committee was popular, but glad as he was to find the illustrious Duke who moved the amendment capable of being influenced by such considerations, he could not make up his mind to do what appeared to him to be wrong, because it might happen to be popular. He should therefore move that the Bill be recommitted.
His Royal Highness the Duke of Cumberlandsaid, that after the personal attack which had been levelled against him by the noble Duke, he trusted he might be permitted to say a few words. He acknowledged that he had moved the amendment, but not in the manner which the noble Duke said. He denied that he had done so on account of (he popularity he should derive from it, for if he thought that he could gain popularity by going to that window, when he believed that such a step would be attended by injustice, he would not stir an inch for that purpose. He had not communicated with any one person on the subject before he moved the amendment in Committee, and he should vote against the recommittal of the Bill; but he must say, that if every noble Lord were to be called forth in the manner in which he had been, after giving his whole attention and constant attendance to the subject before the Committee, very serious obstacles would be interposed to the proper performance of their Lordships' duties. He would only repeat, that in forming the opinion at which he had arrived he had been actuated by conscientious motives 883 alone, and he trusted he should always continue to be so influenced.
§ The Duke of Beaufortobserved, that although he had voted with the noble Duke (Richmond) in the Committee, he could not concur with him in charging the majority with unfairness. He himself had voted against the Report, because he thought Stephenson's line the best; and he had no doubt that the noble Lords who composed the majority voted for the Report because they were not satisfied with the evidence adduced in favour of any one of the competing lines. Indeed, the illustrious Duke expressly said, that his view in moving the amendment was not that one line was preferable to another, but that he was not satisfied that any one line was superior to another. He could not agree with the noble Duke in thinking that anything wrong or unparliamentary had been done by the Committee.
The Earl of Falmouthfelt himself qualified to say that he had never entered a Committee who, as far as his observation went, meant to act more fairly. He did not see the slightest symptom of partiality either one way or the other.
The Duke of Buccleughcould not remain quiet when he heard the noble Duke (Richmond) declare that Mr. Stephenson had been treated with unfairness, or at least with harshness, nor did he understand what the noble Duke meant by the unwarrantable liberties which the Committee had taken. Was it an unwarrantable liberty for the Committee to report one way or another? If every Committee which differed in opinion from the chairman were to be called on to explain why they differed, such a course would be followed by the greatest inconveniences.
§ The Duke of Richmond, when he used the words "unwarrantable liberties," meant the liberty which the Committee had taken in not obeying the orders of the House.
§ The Marquess of Lansdowneunderstood the noble Duke who had just sat down to have so expressed himself, and he must say, that looking at the orders of their Lordships' House, under which the Committee was appointed, it did not appear to him that the Committee had complied with the instructions they contained. His noble Friend (Lord Holland) had asked whether the Committee had reported 884 or not. There seemed some doubt upon the point. He understood that the Committee had absolved themselves from their duties, and instead of making a special report and declaring their opinion in the terms of the sixth resolution, they had determined and reported that it was not expedient to proceed further with the Bill this Session. Upon these grounds he should vote for sending back the Bill to the same or to another Committee.
The Earl of Westmorelandsaid, that it was not his intention, after the discussion which had taken place, to enter at large into the merits of the question, but their Lordships' would recollect that they had given directions to the Committee to examine the parties who had come before them and to report upon the evidence. Instead of that, however, without entering upon the merits of the different lines, the Committee had come to no decision at all, but they had come to a decision that they did not choose to obey their Lordships' orders. He could not but concur with the noble Duke (Richmond) in thinking that the parties were placed by the Report of the Committee in a very grievous situation, since they had been allowed to spend 100,000l. without any information being given to them for it. If the Committee had done their duty, they would have told the parties that their opinion was unfavourable, and then they would not have been urged to risk another application. It was, he thought, the least thing they could have done after such a waste of Parliamentary labour, and such an expenditure of money, to let the parties know what course they were to pursue another year.
Lord Hollandsaid, that the Committee had departed from the general practice of Committees, and from the instructions of the House. They had not reported whether the preamble of any of the Bills was proved, nor upon the evidence which had been laid before them.
The Marquess of Salisburythought, that for most practical purposes the orders of the House had been complied with.
§ The Duke of Richmondin reply said, that the Committee were bound to report upon all the matters mentioned in the resolutions of the House, and he thought it not right that they should take on themselves to exercise a power which only belonged to their Lordships at large. If a special report had been made, then he 885 should move that the Bill be recommitted; but if not, then that the Committee should resume their sittings. He could wish that another Committee might be appointed, but as he believed there was no precedent for such a course, and it would be dangerous to establish one, he should now move that the Committee do re-assemble for the purpose of reporting to the House the evidence, and their reasons in detail for which they came to the resolution in their report.
§ Their Lordships divided: — Contents 42; Not-contents 44: Majority 2.
| List of the CONTENTS. | |
| DUKES. | Duncannon |
| Richmond | Torrington |
| Sutherland | Falkland |
| Leinster | St. Vincent |
| Argyll. | |
| MARQUESSES. | LORDS. |
| Headford | Foley |
| Ormonde | Seaford |
| Lansdowne | Hatherton |
| Westminister | Plunkett |
| Westmeath | Langdale |
| Queensberry | Holland |
| Conyngham. | Byron |
| EARLS. | Glenlyon |
| Minto | Barham |
| Glengall | Wharncliffe |
| Haddington | Stafford |
| Scarborough | Templemore |
| Albemarle | Saye and Sele |
| Westmoreland | Lilford |
| Leitrim | Mostyn |
| Chichester | Dinorben |
| Ilchester. | |
| VISCOUNTS. | BISHOP. |
| Melbourne | Bristol. |