Lords Sitting of 1 September 1835

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a second time:—On the Motion of Lord BROUGHAM:—Public Music and Dancing.
Petitions presented. By the Earl of GLENGALL, from Caher, for an Alteration of the Law respecting Spirit Licences; from Clonmell, against the Municipal Corporations' (Ireland) Bill.—By Lord LYNDHURST, from Dumbarton, against the Imprisonment for Debt Bill.—By the Earl of SHAFTESBUBY, from three Places, for Protection to the Church of Ireland.

PATENT LAWS.
Lord Broughamstated that his noble and learned Friend and himself had, two years ago, objected to a Bill which was brought up from the House of Commons upon the Law of Patents for Inventions. The evils of the Law of Patents, as that law now stood, were admitted by all. No protection was given to an inventor even of the most meritorious kind; but while this was the case, the public were left without any adequate security against monopolies. The Bill formerly introduced had afforded but insufficient remedies for these evils, and had introduced faults of its own. His noble and learned Friend had, therefore, considered the subject, and he had framed a Bill which met with the approbation of his noble and learned Friend. It had been presented to their Lordships, who had read it a first and second time, and it was then referred to a Committee up stairs. His noble and learned Friend had attended that Committee, and some changes and improvements had been introduced into the Bill, which had then been passed by their Lordships. It was then sent to the other House of Parliament, and improvements were made in it in one or two minor particulars—it was extended to Scotland and Ireland, which was very proper, and some

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technical expressions, less distinct than could have been wished, were amended. He acceded to all these Amendments, and should recommend them to their Lordships' adoption. But there was a change in the Bill, which, in his opinion, was most unfortunate. It took from the Bill one of its best provisions, and for the reasons on which it had been introduced he was utterly unable to account. The difficulty under which the patentee chiefly laboured was this, that if the invention was of value, he was scarcely ever secure of a remuneration for his labour and his skill, for the pirates, the men who pirated his invention and pirated it the more in proportion to its greater value, formed a stock purse and harassed him for years with disputes as to the validity of his patent in Courts of Law. If the validity of the patent was in every instance established it must be at an immense cost to the patentee, who might be employed perhaps during the whole of the fourteen years in expensive law-suits and might derive but little advantage from his patent. In this way Watt, the great improver of the steam-engine, the man to whom society was so much indebted, had been almost ruined. To remedy this mischief the patentee generally applied for an Act in cases where the patent was applicable to a subject of great value, in order to renew the patent for seven or fourteen years. This application was, in the first instance, generally made to their Lordships' House, but in cases which warranted it they might easily imagine that the parties opposing the Act would use all possible influence against its adoption. It was proposed in the present Bill that instead of coming to Parliament, where the parties might be put to the great expense of attending with counsel and witnesses for the space of sixty days, at the end of which time twelve noble Lords, who had not heard a word of the evidence, might come down and vote upon it, a circumstance which might happen in a patent case as well as in any other, a circumstance which might happen in a patent case though he hoped that it could not happen in any other, and the party might thus be defeated in obtaining what he was fairly entitled to. It was proposed, therefore, to transfer the adjudication of a claim of this sort for a renewal of the patent from their Lordships' House to the tribunal of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, where no such influence could, ever prevail. This tribunal was admitted to be well-contrived
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for the purpose, yet the proposition had been removed from the Bill by the Commons. Now the public looked upon this as one of the best parts of the Bill, and on its removal as a jewel torn out of a crown. He should, therefore, recommend that, with respect to this alteration, their Lordships should take the only proper course without negativing the Amendment, which would, in fact, amount to throwing out the Bill, and that they should at once adopt the other Amendments.
The other Amendments were agreed to; and on the subject of the one objected to, it was agreed that their Lordships should desire a conference with the House of Commons.

DUBLIN POLICE BILL.
The Marquess of Londonderrysaid, that he wished to set himself right with respect to what had passed yesterday between himself and the noble Viscount opposite. He had seen the two measures—the Constabulary Bill and the Dublin Police Bill, brought up to that House. He had examined them, and when he took into consideration all the circumstances connected with his country, he could not but see that the object of them was to increase in Ireland the power and influence of that gentleman to whom he had before alluded. If he was wrong in his opinion, he implored their Lordships to consider what was the language of that gentleman, no longer ago than the 26th of August last, to a Committee at Glasgow, who had offered him an entertainment. His language was so remarkable, and his declarations so decided, that if their Lordships did not feel dismay when they considered what had passed in Ireland, that was their concern; but as long as he had a voice in that House, he should not cease to use it in declaring his firm opinion, that the further increase of the power of that individual would be fatal to the country. He should read the two last paragraphs of the letter to the Glasgow Committee. The noble Marquess read them accordingly. They stated that the people never would have the taxes taken off labour and placed upon property, till the franchise was extended beyond its present limits—till the House of Hereditary Legislators was so altered as to feel the reasonable influence of popular opinion, and the Members of that House sympathized with the people at large, instead of presenting a factious and wicked opposition to the progress of popular ameliorations. It went on to say that it would

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be the business of the writer to co-operate with all Reformers in the peaceable, active reform of the House of Lords, so as to identify the interests of its Members with those of the people; and till that was done, there would be no diminution of the burdens of the people. The letter was signed Daniel O'Connell. These were the opinions of that individual, and would prevent him (the Marquess of Londonderry) from giving his support to any Bill, the tendency of which was to give greater powers of management into the hands of the gentleman whose doctrines he had just read. He thought it due to himself to state the grounds why he had looked with suspicion on a Bill introduced under the auspices of that party, the connexion with which was the only stain upon the Government.
Viscount Duncannondid not know why he was to he made responsible for the terms of Mr. O'Connell's letter to the people of Glasgow; but as he had nothing to do with that letter, and as Mr. O'Connell had not been consulted about the Bill which had been brought before their Lordships, and as he could not conceive why the noble Marquess supposed that patronage which this Bill would create would be at the disposal of Mr. O'Connell, he did not know now to answer the noble Marquess, for if the noble Marquess's objection meant anything, it meant that while Mr. O'Connell was in existence no such Bill as this, however good in itself, should be allowed to pass. The noble Marquess would say the same with respect to the Registry Bill. There might be some parts of it, perhaps, objectionable to him; but if the noble Marquess meant to say that the same objection which had governed his conduct last night would make him vote against that Bill, he must say that such conduct was quite unreasonable; and he distinctly denied that Mr. O'Connell had interfered in any manner with the Bill beyond that of introducing an Amendment into it during its passage through the House of Commons.
Lord Hathertonsaid, with regard to the Constabulary Bill, that it had been in his office all last year, and that the sole reason for not introducing it at that time was, that he feared it would then encounter the hostility of the very individual who had been named.
The Marquess of Londonderrywas glad to hear those statements, and now he heard them, he should think he had been wrong
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in objecting to the Bills on that ground; but the letter he had read justified his feelings. He should be sorry that he should state anything against any individual when it was not right.
Lord Strangfordsaid, that what they ad just heard, justified the belief of the influence of Mr. O'Connell, since it appeared that a Minister was afraid to introduce a Bill on account of the opposition it might encounter from that individual.
Lord Hollandwished to know what it was that a Constitutional Minister of the Crown would do when a matter came under his consideration, if he was not to weigh all the reasons for and against proposing it at a particular moment? Should he not consider what Bill was likely to meet with opposition, and what was not likely to meet with it? He should wish also to know whether the noble Marquess was prepared to say whether a Bill of this nature might not be materially injured by the opposition of a man of the talents of Mr. O'Connell?
The conversation was dropped.