Lords Sitting of 27 May 1835

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By the Earl of ABERDEEN, from Aberdeen, for the Better Observance of the Sabbath.—By the Duke of GORDON, and the Earls of MANSFIELD and SHAFTESBURY, from several Places, for Additional Accommodation in Scotch Churches.

CHURCH RATES
Lord Broughamsaid, he had to present a Petition complaining of a personal grievance. The petition, which emanated from a most respectable body of men—namely, eighty-eight congregations of Dissenters, meeting in a district which comprised twelve miles round London—contained a very strong remonstrance against the payment of Church-rates by Dissenters. The petitioners adverted to the case of a highly respectable individual, named Child, who, in consequence of the existing state of the law, had been imprisoned in Norwich gaol for the nonpayment of Church-rates amounting to 17 s. 6d. Now his difference of opinion from that of the petitioners and of Mr. Child was this—he wished to see the system altered—he disapproved of the law which imposed these Church-rates upon Dissenters—but, so long as it was the law of the land, he thought that it ought to be obeyed. A man might, like Mr. Child, disapprove of the law, but he was not therefore bound in conscience to resist it, and thus get himself into a prison. Though such was his view of the matter he was ready to bear testimony to the pure and disinterested motives of Mr. Child, whom he had known long. There was no man more respected among his acquaintance. In his business, as a printer, he conferred great benefit on society by the many excellent works which he sent forth to the public. It was only from a conscientious motive that he was led to I brave the punishment inflicted on him. There were only two courses in which he

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could have been proceeded against for payment. One by a seizure of his property, under the authority of two Magistrates, and the other by citation before the Ecclesiastical Court. The latter, and the more severe course, was pursued, judgment issued, and he was sent to a prison forty miles from his home.
Ordered to lie on the Table.

SLAVE TRADE.
Lord Broughamsaid, he had received a communication from a most respectable African merchant of the city of London, respecting which he would put a question to his noble Friend at the head of the Admiralty. This gentleman informed him that six piratical vessels were lately captured and brought into Sierra Leone laden with slaves. They were sailing, he believed, under the Spanish flag; and a gentleman who saw the slaves on board said they were in the very worst condition, and that not less than 150 lives might have been saved if proper accommodation and room had been afforded before they reached the port. There were no less than 900 unhappy beings, forcibly taken from their country, cruelly separated from their relatives and friends, by the crime of these detestable ruffians, who abused the Spanish flag to carry on this nefarious traffic. By the law of this country they would be hanged as pirates. The question he would ask was, whether the captain or captains of the cruizers which captured these ships, did anything to accommodate these unhappy beings with room in their vessels, where there was room enough. He knew it was now laid down as law that no Member of that or the other House of Parliament must inquire as to the conduct of an officer, who might have inflicted injury upon any individual however respectable, if that individual happened subsequently to express forgiveness for the injury. Another rule laid down was that, if the Admiral of the station did not forward a complaint to the Admiralty of the conduct of an officer, no one had a right to ask any questions.
Lord Aucklandsaid, he was in the most perfect state of ignorance with respect to all the circumstances mentioned by his noble and learned Friend. If his noble Friend could tell him the name of the ship or ships which made the capture he would inquire into the subject.
Lord Brougham: It was made by the cruizers on the station.
Lord Aucklandsaid, there were sixteen cruizers on the station, and before he could make inquiry he must ascertain the name of the vessel. With respect to the other point alluded to by his noble Friend he laid down no rule. All he said upon the occasion was, that no complaint had been lodged either by the individual said to be aggrieved, or by the Admiral of the station. He (Lord Auckland) and the other Members of the Government were most anxious to put down the horrible traffic, and no exertions should be wanting on their part to effect so desirable an object.
Lord Brougham: The capture took place on or before the 5th of March. It might be ascertained what cruizer was then on the station.
Lord Aucklandrepeated there were sixteen of them.

ENTAILS. (SCOTLAND.)
The Earl of Roseberry,in moving that their Lordships should take into consideration the report of the Select Committee on the Report of the Lords of Session upon the Scotch Entail Bills, observed, that he entirely concurred in the short Report made by the Select Committee, although he regretted that it did not go further, and enter more at length into the subject, instead of merely recommending an alteration in the existing law. He fully admitted the ability, and duly estimated the assiduity and laborious attention, which the Lords of Session had brought to the consideration of this subject, although he differed from them on two points, one of a legal nature, the other of a general character. The noble Earl then proceeded to enumerate the many technical difficulties that were connected with efficient legislation on this subject, and expressed a wish that some Member of his Majesty's Government, or some person holding a high judicial situation, would undertake the task, since he found, from his own experience, that it was impossible for any unsupported individual Member of their Lordships' House to effect the object which he had sought to attain. If any other noble Lord would take up the subject, he would endeavour, before the next Session of Parliament, to remodel the two Bills which he had had the honour to introduce, and to remove from them those provisions to which objections had been chiefly made. It was, he conceived, necessary, that any measure on this subject should embody the

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three following principles;—first, to prevent, in future, Entails in perpetuity being made in Scotland; secondly, to afford facilities for the exchange of lands to heirs in succession; and thirdly, to grant to heirs in possession (to an extent to be determined by Parliament) the power of selling, for the purpose of clearing off in-cumbrances which had been created under the existing law.
Lord Broughamsaid, there were great difficulties in legislating upon the subject; but a great and beneficial relaxation of the present law might be made, even as regarded existing Entails. The English law knew of no such thing as perpetuity, except in the cases of creations by Act of Parliament, as the Marlborough and Strathfieldsay estates, and of a person holding an estate, with remainder to the Crown. There were various expedients to tie up an heir, but they operated within very narrow limits. He recollected one instance of the hardships frequently inflicted by the Scotch Law of Entail. A lady in Lancashire, brought up in luxury, and surrounded with all the conveniences and comforts of life, married a gentleman having two Entailed estates. She had but a few marks jointure. The husband died, and her son supported her. He also died, and the next heir was an infant, and the guardian could not give her a farthing. She applied to him to procure her the situation of companion to an old lady. She died soon afterwards, and, he believed, very much in consequence of what she suffered on account of the present Scotch Law of Entail. This was only one instance out of many hundreds. The great difficulty was that of vested interests. He was surprised the Lords of Sessions fell into the error they did with respect to perpetuity in England. The abolition of the Law of Entail could not reduce the price of land, because no person would be compelled to sell. His noble Friend should have his best assistance in furthering the measure whenever he should propose it.